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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

GRRM is as much to blame for what the show turned into as D&D ,

Thank you! I've been saying this for awhile and that's definitely been met with hostility from some fans. Martin most definitely sold an incomplete product to HBO and D&D. It wouldn't surprise me that in the future, this turns out to be regarded as one of the greatest troll moves of all time. He made his money, and got someone else to take the blame for how it ended up.

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3 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

The show did some things better than the books in the early seasons:

  • I loved the dialogue between Robert and Cersei and felt it made their resentment of each more relatable.
  • Jon's reason for joining the Wildlings was infinitely better "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living" - The reason in the books actually made no sense. 
  • The Red Wedding was much more shocking in the show - The lured you into a sense of comfort that GRRM never really did. And I say that as someone who knew it was coming. It was pretty obvious in the books that Robb's cause was lost and that the Frey's were betraying him. 

D&D are hack writers but when they were invested in the material they could really adapt things superbly. There were some warning signs early on (Asha's invasion of the Dreadfort) about things to come but I think people can be harsh on them. They didn't sign up to write the ending. I do think they should have handed the show off to someone else though as they had clearly lost any passion for it after Tyrion offs Tywin. Seasons 5-8 were an abomination. 

Well, I agree and disagree; I think the show went bad during season 3, tbh.

But I'll say this: D&D are in a way kinda victims. They were new to the whole thing... and they were given something more than they can handle.

They'll probably never be given a show again while other screen-writers and show-runners will be given a show.

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1 hour ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

Well, I agree and disagree; I think the show went bad during season 3, tbh.

But I'll say this: D&D are in a way kinda victims. They were new to the whole thing... and they were given something more than they can handle.

They'll probably never be given a show again while other screen-writers and show-runners will be given a show.

I do agree that they were kinda victim of the books not being finished, but given that there were already strong differences with the books starting from the second season of the show, how they renamed characters and completely changed or butchered several characters whose personality were strongly established in the already published novels I'd say that they are still largely responsible for the screw-ups of the show.

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5 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

The show did some things better than the books in the early seasons:

  • I loved the dialogue between Robert and Cersei and felt it made their resentment of each more relatable.
  • Jon's reason for joining the Wildlings was infinitely better "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living" - The reason in the books actually made no sense. 
  • The Red Wedding was much more shocking in the show - The lured you into a sense of comfort that GRRM never really did. And I say that as someone who knew it was coming. It was pretty obvious in the books that Robb's cause was lost and that the Frey's were betraying him. 

Don't forget the interactions between Varys and Littlefinger.

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I do agree that they were kinda victim of the books not being finished, but given that there were already strong differences with the books starting from the second season of the show, how they renamed characters and completely changed or butchered several characters whose personality were strongly established in the already published novels I'd say that they are still largely responsible for the screw-ups of the show.

There was nothing to stop them from hiring decent writers.  I think the final seasons could at least have been finished competently.

59 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 I just don't understand how the guys who wrote LF-Varys dialogues in earlier seasons are the ones who wrote Tyrion-Varys and SandSnakes-Bronn dialogues in later seasons!

The former shows that they were not completely without talent.  I think they just came to believe their own hype in the end.  

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6 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

The show did some things better than the books in the early seasons:

  • I loved the dialogue between Robert and Cersei and felt it made their resentment of each more relatable.
  • Jon's reason for joining the Wildlings was infinitely better "I want to fight for the side that fights for the living" - The reason in the books actually made no sense. 
  • The Red Wedding was much more shocking in the show - The lured you into a sense of comfort that GRRM never really did. And I say that as someone who knew it was coming. It was pretty obvious in the books that Robb's cause was lost and that the Frey's were betraying him. 

D&D are hack writers but when they were invested in the material they could really adapt things superbly. There were some warning signs early on (Asha's invasion of the Dreadfort) about things to come but I think people can be harsh on them. They didn't sign up to write the ending. I do think they should have handed the show off to someone else though as they had clearly lost any passion for it after Tyrion offs Tywin. Seasons 5-8 were an abomination. 

I agree with the first two.  I certainly had no objection to the way the Red Wedding was done in the show,  but I do think the mounting horror of the book is more gripping.

OTOH, Dany in Qarth was an ominous warning of what would happen when they came up with completely original material.

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I do agree that they were kinda victim of the books not being finished, but given that there were already strong differences with the books starting from the second season of the show, how they renamed characters and completely changed or butchered several characters whose personality were strongly established in the already published novels I'd say that they are still largely responsible for the screw-ups of the show.

The only character that was butchered in the first 4 seasons is Lora's Tyrell. 

I don't think that adapting a character to a TV format and that it diverges  to their book counter part is something bad, so long we get something good.

Loras's entire schtick in the show was having him hook up with a dude.

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the final seasons could at least have been finished competently.

I too think so, I do agree that Martin is largely responsible for the legacy of the show.  But given that season 5,6 and 7 were already awful and they still somehow received unheard praise and Emmys. Any writer with  minimal passion for their work could have given people something they could be satisfied with.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

 I just don't understand how the guys who wrote LF-Varys dialogues in earlier seasons are the ones who wrote Tyrion-Varys and SandSnakes-Bronn dialogues in later seasons!

They have great talent to adapt the source material and give the characters their own touch.

When they rant out of source material and had to come up with things on their own they failed.

 

What I disagree is when people, Martin among them, claim they had source material and chose not to adapt it.

No, they had a million of road ends not even the author knows how to bypass and they were asked to continue with the madness till either the public or the actors got tired of going nowhere. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I do agree that they were kinda victim of the books not being finished, but given that there were already strong differences with the books starting from the second season of the show, how they renamed characters and completely changed or butchered several characters whose personality were strongly established in the already published novels I'd say that they are still largely responsible for the screw-ups of the show.

Oh I don't give D&D a pass by any means. They're the ones who convinced Martin(and maybe themselves) they could make it work. Just that I think Martin does share some responsibility for how the show turned out.

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8 hours ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

They'll probably never be given a show again while other screen-writers and show-runners will be given a show.

They deserve it. One of them (Weiss I think) has written movies that got onto big screen and they sucked. You wanna know who wrote X-Men: Origins? Weiss did. They're nimrods who deserved the backlash that they got. 

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Thank you! I've been saying this for awhile and that's definitely been met with hostility from some fans. Martin most definitely sold an incomplete product to HBO and D&D. It wouldn't surprise me that in the future, this turns out to be regarded as one of the greatest troll moves of all time. He made his money, and got someone else to take the blame for how it ended up.

HBO probably thought that "hey, we can stretch these books out to last a few years, until he finishes another one." Then they'd be fine for a a couple of years again. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

They deserve it. One of them (Weiss I think) has written movies that got onto big screen

Benioff, not Weiss.

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

and they sucked.

The 25th Hour, which Benioff adapted from his own novel, is an amazing film and one of the best American films of its decade, IMO.

HIs Troy has people who love it and people who hate it. He adapted The Kite Runner as well, with generally positive reviews.

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You wanna know who wrote X-Men: Origins? Weiss did. 

Benioff again, but notoriously it was heavily rewritten by others. One of his drafts made it out there on the Internet and CBR reviewed it, noting some problems but generally feeling that as written it was substantially better than what was put on screen.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Benioff, not Weiss.

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Apologies....I  got all that stuff from someone who despises D&D and didn't bother to do research myself. And I mixed up the names to add on :bang:

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Oh I don't give D&D a pass by any means. They're the ones who convinced Martin(and maybe themselves) they could make it work. Just that I think Martin does share some responsibility for how the show turned out.

I agree.

Martin should have given the showrunners a little more to go with. It of course wouldn't be in his interest to do so, but he did leave HBO high and dry. D&D probably did not expect to have to write so much of the story themselves. (and then of course didn't have anyone around them to tell them how terrible the writing was getting)

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13 hours ago, EggBlue said:

GRRM is as much to blame for what the show turned into as D&D , if not more. he never should have sold such an incomplete story with so many layers. even his most devoted readers don't seem to agree on what is the main purpose/issue in the song of ice and fire ( the Others, a bunch of wars . Stark kids, Targs , Zombies, dragons, etc.) , let alone how it would end and what parts to highlight in a TV medium! not to mention, with selling his tale he brought himself so much stress that he is still writing a book that should have finished like 5 years ago!

This is something that I think a lot of people are probably thinking but are afraid to say. George is an artistic genius and we love the world he created. I don’t think I’ll ever stop hoping for the next book, but part of me wonders if I’m a fool for thinking that we’ll get the next book after ten years—going on eleven now—of waiting. 

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2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

They deserve it. One of them (Weiss I think) has written movies that got onto big screen and they sucked. You wanna know who wrote X-Men: Origins? Weiss did. They're nimrods who deserved the backlash that they got. 

HBO probably thought that "hey, we can stretch these books out to last a few years, until he finishes another one." Then they'd be fine for a a couple of years again. 

I get that.

Even so, there are a lot more Hollywood hacks that will never get this backlash.

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3 minutes ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

Even so, there are a lot more Hollywood hacks that will never get this backlash.

I mean, GoT was a pretty popular TV show and it went from "I'm not questioning your honor" and the "chaos is a ladder" monologue, the beauty that was Season 4 to "dur hur hur, u have no cock" in Season 8. 

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16 hours ago, EggBlue said:

GRRM is as much to blame for what the show turned into as D&D , if not more. he never should have sold such an incomplete story with so many layers. even his most devoted readers don't seem to agree on what is the main purpose/issue in the song of ice and fire ( the Others, a bunch of wars . Stark kids, Targs , Zombies, dragons, etc.) , let alone how it would end and what parts to highlight in a TV medium! not to mention, with selling his tale he brought himself so much stress that he is still writing a book that should have finished like 5 years ago!

Eggscellent comment! I couldn’t agree more that not even his book readers agree on what story he is telling. Books 4 and 5 were released when they were already making Game of Thrones and it introduced a lot of characters. I don’t know if GRRM told them about how important those locations and characters would be later when they began making the first season.

Edited by Crona
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