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How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?


Jaenara Belarys

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Dothrakis can be useful against light infantry poorly equiped, but bowmen and pikemen would wipe them out.

Unsullied are a more serious threat to any Westerosi infantry, but they are useless against a heavy cavalry. Dany can't expect to win only with them, she needs Westerosi support.

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3 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Dany can't expect to win only with them, she needs Westerosi support.

I can't see that happening until she beats Aegon. He seems to be better positioned to gathering Westerosi support; he got there first, and he has a better claim. Dany will need to unleash some fire and blood on him first, but that might make her lose potential supporters. An interesting dilemma. 

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7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Frankly, I think Martin went too far in making the Dothraki so primitive. Even their historical inspirations - the nomadic Turks and the Mongols - used shields, armour and sophisticated tactics because of their proximity to more developed civilisations (e.g. China, Persia).

Agreed on the terms of the armor and weapons. But the tactics developed because the Mongols early on simply couldn't have the numbers for a pitched battle. What we should see in terms of weapons and armor is something like the LotR Rohirrim and the IRL Mongols, with Mongol tactics. 

10 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

The unsullied are the best infantry and the dothraki are the best cavalry in the world. Put them together and you have the makings of invincible stew

This is a link about armor piercing, and it talks about how textile armor fares against strikes: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/21/collections-punching-through-some-armor-myths/

The Unsullied only wear textile armor. No mail, nothing else. We don't know what their "three spears" are, but as said above a phalanx is vulnerable to the flanks and rear. 

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13 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

aren't the dothraki afraid of the sea? How will dany make tens of thousands of dothraki overcome this fear?

By making them more afraid of dragons.

 

In all seriousness the Dothraki could be a serious liability if ever unleashed upon Westeros. They have no answer for high walled castles, the lack of armor and the second foreign armies start raping and pillaging Westeros villages that's going to be Dany's reputation.

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Another problem for Dothraki in Westeros is terrain. Or some parts of Westeros include forests like Stormlands or hills like Westerlands and both forests and hills would be dangerous for cavalrymen. Naturally assuming that local people are hostile and know how to use those terrains against invaders.

For instance 1555 Imperial Russia tried to invade Finland with army history books claim to be over 30.000 men strong but that army was stopped by 550 local peasants who ambushed and slayed most VIPs and couple thousand other men of that army in Battle of Joutselkä.(Sorry but you will not see that name correctly unless you "buy" a vocal that English normally do not use.) Just in theory Westerosi could use similar ambushes against invading Dothlaki unless they learn to use infantry scouts in places they cannot use their horses.

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My God, I'd love to see the Dothraki and the Unsullied perform. The best would be to perform against each other, so that the bloody Dothraki can perish. The army composition of any feudal realm, Westeros included in this case, seems to be good at countering those idiots riding horses. They have no armor and no ranged regiments. People of the high medieval era tought heavy cavalry is the best thing that happened to humanity because they wore armor tought to be impenetrable. Then they learned to counter them, just as society advanced enough to learn how to counter nomadic threat. The nomadic hungarians were pillaging Europe for a hundred years, but they eventually had to stop when their tactics seemed not to age pretty well. Around 300 years later, when the next nomadic threat came to Europe, those people were pretty smart, much more advanced than the Dothraki. Now to think of it, most of the land conqered by the great Khans of the Mongol Empire weren't really advanced in building fortresses. There are a few expections, tho, namely China and the Middle-East+Persia (these were the ones that actually mattered). They weren't dumb people. When they saw something useful (such as siege weapons), they made a use of it. Otherwise, pillaging an entire continent would've been pretty hard. And Europe can be thankful that the empire split, otherwise the mongols would've pillaged them, showing no mercy. Given how Westerosi army composition seems to be made of ranged units, heavy cavalry, and at least a lightly armored infantry, the Dothraki will have no efficiency against them, unless their single use would be sacking, pillaging and skirmishing. On the battlefield, tho? Especially given how westerosi pikemen are supposed to counter HEAVY cavalry? Not really. But it depends on how deep George will go when it comes to these things. It also depends on what future you imagine the Dothraki. I'd like to think they won't go to Westeros, and I might be alone with that. 

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The Unsullied will always give superb performance and conduct the business of battle in a very professional way. The nobles of Westeros and their knigjts have very little chance against them.  The Dothraki on their own are enough to force the knights to hide behind their castle walls.
 

The savagery of the Dothraki can match the primitive northmen and the wildlings. The Dothraki and the Unsullied will make each other stronger. The discipline and the training of the Unsullied will elevate the battle effectiveness of the already formidable Dothraki.

It will happen the way Robert imagined and feared. The squires and green boys will crap in their pants when the Dothraki darken the skies with their arrows. Farmer-soldiers will break formation and run from the battle. The knights and their squires will retreat behind their walls and pray to all the gods that the Dothraki will get bored and leave for Essos. The Dothraki of the past might get bored and leave. A Dothraki army led by one determined monarch, on a Dragon, is not going to lose interest and give up on the siege. The Unsullied will be there to lend calm, patience, and tactics. These men built war machines from wood salvaged from boats. They know the business of war.  They  can bring down the walls of Storm’s End and Winterfell.  
 

Empress Daenerys will have many freed slaves turned soldiers adding to the size of her armies. These soldiers will have had experience by the time their Empress takes them to Westeros.  
 

 

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I think the Unsullied would do fantastic. The Dothraki would have problems in the Stormlands, the North, the Mountains of the Moon and similar terrains but I think that they'd do fine otherwise. After all it does snow in the Dothraki Sea (although probably not to the level that it does or will in Westeros) and no one knows if the Dothraki hibernate all winter long in Vaes Dothrak or they continue living as warrior-nomads...

If they do continue as warrior-nomads in the wintertime, I'm sure they have some sort of protective clothing.

It's also not too much of a reach if GRRM made it so where the Dothraki end up donning "light" armor for their excursions in Westeros--either at the command of Daenerys or for some other good enough reason. I also want to remind people that the Dothraki employ archers as well. Not only that but their archers are also formidable horseback riders as well; that's something unheard of in Westeros.

As previously stated, the only professional armies (if you can call them that) in Westeros are ironmen, westermen, northmen and valemen. The ironmen who aren't allied with Daenerys will pose a very big problem to them yes but the West and the North are both spent forces that will likely be more concerned with isolating themselves to protecting their own fragile holdings.

But yes, Daenerys is going to need more than the Unsullied, the Ironborn and the Dothraki to take Westeros. She probably won't get much support from native lords and knights but she's going to have to take a sellsword company and/or an army of freedmen as well.

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The 3 founding Targaryens took Westeros quite easily and they had less to work with. I think Dany’s troops are strong enough to win Westeros back for her even without dragons. Many houses from the Riverlands and The Reach will support her return to Westeros. She is their rightful ruler. The WotFKs has created a political climate in which the people will start looking East to plead with Queen Daenerys to come home. 

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8 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

In all seriousness the Dothraki could be a serious liability if ever unleashed upon Westeros. They have no answer for high walled castles, the lack of armor and the second foreign armies start raping and pillaging Westeros villages that's going to be Dany's reputation.

Yup, I feel the show whitewashed them. The Dothraki did not harm a single civilian in season 7,8.

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5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Unsullied will always give superb performance and conduct the business of battle in a very professional way. The nobles of Westeros and their knigjts have very little chance against them.  The Dothraki on their own are enough to force the knights to hide behind their castle walls.

Superb performance, yes, yes against half trained slave soldiers. But did you read the part where I talked about how a phalanx is vulnerable? These men are wearing quilted armor(Textile armor did exist, and it's better than nothing but it's still not a hauberk) against soldiers who are apparently wear quite a lot of mail. 

From the Internet: 

Quote

The hoplite phalanx was weakest when facing an enemy fielding lighter and more flexible troops without its own such supporting troops. An example of this would be the Battle of Lechaeum, where an Athenian contingent led by Iphicrates routed an entire Spartan mora (a unit of anywhere from 500 to 900 hoplites). The Athenian force had a considerable proportion of light missile troops armed with javelins and bows that wore down the Spartans with repeated attacks, causing disarray in the Spartan ranks and an eventual rout when they spotted Athenian heavy infantry reinforcements trying to flank them by boat.

They don't have archers. You could use the Dothraki, but it's not like any enemy is going to sit there and get pounded if they have archers too. Humans will not run themselves onto pointy sticks being held by other men. They'll avoid said pointy sticks and go from there. And remember what Tyrion said in the  released TWOW chapter: "Man to man, the Unsullied are no better than any other spearmen." Which would include Westerosi. 

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

These men built war machines from wood salvaged from boats. They know the business of war.  They  can bring down the walls of Storm’s End and Winterfell.  
 

You'd need a hell of a lot of trebuchets to bring down the walls of Storm's End. I do seem to recall it being 80 feet at it's thickest (maybe thinnest, IDR) point. Ad it was the freedmen who built the siege weapons :) (but even then, a basic battering ram was just a tree trunk on ropes). 

 

However, even with this I do believe Dany would still come out on top (dragons) and she's most likely going to have at the very least the sellswords, maybe the freedmen companies and if GRRM does what I think he'll do with Dany(i.e. she's sailing to Westeros by the end of TWOW in my opinion, after plowing through the Free Cities and freeing the slaves. And to hopefully, a place where there will be absolutely no mad queen arc).

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Daenerys Targaryen will have the most complete armed forces in the world.  The Dothraki will represent the cavalry.  They are the best riders in the world.  Her Unsullied are the best foot soldiers.  A substantial navy will be necessary to bring the armed forces of the Light to Westeros.  She will have command of land, sea, and air.  They can blockade every city they wish.  Westeros is already on its knees.  The people can thank the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, Martells, and Littlefinger for their misery.  The people will turn against their lords. 

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14 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

This is a link about armor piercing, and it talks about how textile armor fares against strikes: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/21/collections-punching-through-some-armor-myths/

The Unsullied only wear textile armor. No mail, nothing else. We don't know what their "three spears" are, but as said above a phalanx is vulnerable to the flanks and rear. 

Didnt you hear about the field of crows. And the three thousand of qohor

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14 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Didnt you hear about the field of crows. And the three thousand of qohor

Yes, of course I heard about those. A crossbow or a longbow will punch through a wooden shield, which the Unsullied probably have considering they're hoplites essentially. And they lost because the Dothraki are idiots. 

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On 10/31/2021 at 10:08 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

We all know (I hope) the lore for the Unsullied and Dothraki, but to me it seems like they've been inflated.....case in point: the Dothraki somehow being a threat despite being a horde of unarmored horseback riders for over 300 years despite the tale of the Three Thousand of Qohor and their apparent tactics (i.e charging straight at a line, rather than simply doing a caracole  over and over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracole). 

 

The Unsullied:

  • They apparently fight in a phalanx, wearing quilted armor (I suppose we could interpret this as a gambeson or a Greek linthorax), but a phalanx is vulnerable to the right and the rear(since it it's all facing forward). Plus, textile armor simply isn't as good as a simple hauberk or half plate. 
  • One of their advantages is that they don't feel pain, but if you don't feel pain won't you simply not do anything about it until it's a bit late? I suppose you could order them to report any wounds....
  • They apparently ask no questions and follow all orders. Which means they won't take the initiative.....which means they might lose the battle. 
  • Their fighting method is conductive to flat open terrain, and Westeros isn't all flat and dry

The Dothraki:

  • Light unarmored (it's hard to communicate how quickly an unarmored person on a battlefield would be killed. And before somebody pops up talking about naked Gauls, they used shields which the Dothraki apparently don't. Plus, the Gauls were the ones who invented mail so....) nomadic cavalry, whose tactics and weapons don't seem to have really changed since Khal Temmo lost
  • They don't have the patience for siege warfare
  • In the Burgundian Wars, back in the 1400s, Swiss pikemen regularly cut apart heavy horse, armored knights. If they could do that to armored knights, how exactly would a pike square (with archers probably) fare against light cavalry who've been noted to simply charge something instead of a more intelligent tactic? 
  • Same as the Unsullied for terrain problems

That said, how do you all think that they'll perform in Westeros (if they ever get there <_<)? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, if it is, please move it.

@Lord Lannister, @Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers, @Willam Stark, @StarksInTheNorth, @Aldarion@Daeron the Daring

Daenerys will receive a rude awakening. There are actually signs within the story as well:

1) Who have Dothraki fought? Absolutely nobody, in actual military terms. The only things we have are legends, and the fact that some cities are buying them off. They also got defeated by the Unsullied, who... see below.

2) Unsullied gained fame by fighting off Dothraki... in a battle which makes both sides look mentally retarded. Unsullied leave their flanks open... which Dothraki proceed to ignore. Meanwhile, the only real evidence of the Unsullied combat strength we have is Golden Company sacking Qohor... you know, the city famed by being defended by the Unsullied.

So either of those going up against a proper Westerosi army and winning is about as likely as a snowball spontaneously developing intelligence, raising an army of snowmen, and conquering the Hell with them. In fact, their actual historical counterparts (you know, the well-equipped, well-trained and usually well-armoured Mongols and Greek hoplites) would be cut apart by the 13th-15th century armies which Westerosi armies are based on. The only people in Westeros against whom I see Dothraki and Unsullied winning - either separately or together - are the Ironborn and the Wildlings.

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20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Superb performance, yes, yes against half trained slave soldiers. But did you read the part where I talked about how a phalanx is vulnerable? These men are wearing quilted armor(Textile armor did exist, and it's better than nothing but it's still not a hauberk) against soldiers who are apparently wear quite a lot of mail. 

From the Internet: 

They don't have archers. You could use the Dothraki, but it's not like any enemy is going to sit there and get pounded if they have archers too. Humans will not run themselves onto pointy sticks being held by other men. They'll avoid said pointy sticks and go from there. And remember what Tyrion said in the  released TWOW chapter: "Man to man, the Unsullied are no better than any other spearmen." Which would include Westerosi. 

You'd need a hell of a lot of trebuchets to bring down the walls of Storm's End. I do seem to recall it being 80 feet at it's thickest (maybe thinnest, IDR) point. Ad it was the freedmen who built the siege weapons :) (but even then, a basic battering ram was just a tree trunk on ropes). 

 

However, even with this I do believe Dany would still come out on top (dragons) and she's most likely going to have at the very least the sellswords, maybe the freedmen companies and if GRRM does what I think he'll do with Dany(i.e. she's sailing to Westeros by the end of TWOW in my opinion, after plowing through the Free Cities and freeing the slaves. And to hopefully, a place where there will be absolutely no mad queen arc).

The Unsullied are the best infantry on both continents. Fighting a battle is not the same as a duel. No army in Westeros will even come close to their professionalism. The question presented was how a combined force of The Unsullied and the Dothraki will do in Westeros. The answer, they can take on any army that the lords can bring to battle and win.  The number of armored knights are not enough. The majority of the fighting men in Westeros are part-timers. They do not stand a chance. That is why Robert, a man who understood war, was worried. 

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On 10/31/2021 at 5:08 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

That said, how do you all think that they'll perform in Westeros (if they ever get there <_<)? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, if it is, please move it.

They would do very well and beat the snot out of whoever chooses to oppose them.  The Dothraki have the numbers on their side.  Unsullied are few but they are the best soldiers on Planetos. 

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