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How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?


Jaenara Belarys

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10 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I'll like to remind everyone that not every westerosi is an armored knight. Such knights form a very small part of the army. 

Correct.  And not all of the knights are wealthy enough to have a complete suit of quality armor.  The armor will vary in quality and fit.  Their horses will also vary in health and training. 

 

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4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I'll like to remind everyone that not every westerosi is an armored knight. Such knights form a very small part of the army. 

And? Around 10% of army are knights, 25% are cavalry, on average. Westerosi infantry also consist of pikemen and longbowmen, which when combined together are fundamentally invulnerable to any kind of unarmoured cavalry, and a tough nut to crack for even heavy infantry or armoured cavalry. Which... Unsullied are heavy infantry in terms of tactics, but they are a very shitty heavy infantry by Westerosi standards. Dothraki are light cavalry, and should make good scouts and raiders, but in any kind of direct combat Westerosi army will chew them up and spit them out.

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1 minute ago, Aldarion said:

And? Around 10% of army are knights, 25% are cavalry, on average. Westerosi infantry also consist of pikemen and longbowmen, which when combined together are fundamentally invulnerable to any kind of unarmoured cavalry, and a tough nut to crack for even heavy infantry or armoured cavalry. Which... Unsullied are heavy infantry in terms of tactics, but they are a very shitty heavy infantry by Westerosi standards. Dothraki are light cavalry, and should make good scouts and raiders, but in any kind of direct combat Westerosi army will chew them up and spit them out.

Thats what the sarnori thought at the field of crows about the dothraki

And that's what the dothraki thought about the unsullied at qohor. 

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Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

Thats what the sarnori thought at the field of crows about the dothraki

And that's what the dothraki thought about the unsullied at qohor. 

Sarnori were a literally Bronze Age army, and displayed neither tactical sophistication nor discipline we have seen Westerosi show in those few major battles described in the book. That battle with Sarnori was one Zerg rush meeting another, and better Zergers (Dothraki) won. Also, Dothraki got lucky that their panicked retreat upon losing a khal turned into an ambush.

As for the Unsullied, that outcome was obvious to anyone except the Dothraki.

Fact is, the only serious armed force we have seen in Essos so far are Westerosi mercenaries. Everything else - Unsullied, Dothraki, Ghiscari - is either outdated, incompetent, or both.

I don't want to write an essay, so here:

https://fantasycore.home.blog/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

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25 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Sarnori were a literally Bronze Age army, and displayed neither tactical sophistication nor discipline we have seen Westerosi show in those few major battles described in the book. That battle with Sarnori was one Zerg rush meeting another, and better Zergers (Dothraki) won. Also, Dothraki got lucky that their panicked retreat upon losing a khal turned into an ambush.

As for the Unsullied, that outcome was obvious to anyone except the Dothraki.

Fact is, the only serious armed force we have seen in Essos so far are Westerosi mercenaries. Everything else - Unsullied, Dothraki, Ghiscari - is either outdated, incompetent, or both.

I don't want to write an essay, so here:

https://fantasycore.home.blog/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

I would not expect Daenerys to have only Unsullied and Dothraki however.  I'd expect her to have thousands of mercenaries, tiger soldiers, and soldiers of R'hllor.  All arms will be well-represented.  Her main constraint will be provisioning and transporting these soldiers.

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7 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Sarnori were a literally Bronze Age army, and displayed neither tactical sophistication nor discipline we have seen Westerosi show in those few major battles described in the book. That battle with Sarnori was one Zerg rush meeting another, and better Zergers (Dothraki) won. Also, Dothraki got lucky that their panicked retreat upon losing a khal turned into an ambush.

I think it's important to note how we don't really know the numbers of the Dothraki. For all we know, the sarnori could've been heavily outnumbered. This is pretty likely as well. Their cities resided around rivers, lakes or the sea, but the entire area had been grassland. The historical accounts seem to confirm that this invasion wasn't a rush, and the Dothraki used up the division between the independent sarnori city states, as well as other rulers in their conquest. We are told they didn't bother conquering cities and cout the duplly lines of many cities, starving them to the point they surrender. They aren't described nomadic or primitive (not at all), but for all we know, their numbers might have been incomparably low to the entirety of the Dothraki. You know they talk about how they don't use tactics, but at the same time they weren't just rushing against walls with an arakh on their horses, no matter what they say. 

That being said, I hope they remain in Essos, their resence would be unpleasant to me either way. If they come, they'll either perform pretty good (if George wants to, they'll be) or pretty goddamn horrible. As much as I would like to see them evaporate, I'd be happiest if they remain in Essos. 

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That will depends above all of well they are going to be used and of the quality of the strategies and tactics that will be used for them, as well as the tactics and strategies of their foes.

The Dothraki are obviously those who will have a worse performance and will suffer the most setbacks and casualties due to their lack of discipline and tactics other that charging and firing arrows on their foes, as well as their lack of armor and recklessness.

The Usullied will surely perform better but they too have their weaknesses such as their limited numbers, them losing their advantage in cities and lands that don't allow them to do formations, etc...

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27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I would not expect Daenerys to have only Unsullied and Dothraki however.  I'd expect her to have thousands of mercenaries, tiger soldiers, and soldiers of R'hllor.  All arms will be well-represented.  Her main constraint will be provisioning and transporting these soldiers.

Problem is, all of these are an unknown factor. We do not know how they perform in battle, or even - in many cases - how they are equipped. The only portion of Daenerys' army we can be certain will perform well - or at all - are Westerosi mercenaries.

28 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think it's important to note how we don't really know the numbers of the Dothraki. For all we know, the sarnori could've been heavily outnumbered. This is pretty likely as well. Their cities resided around rivers, lakes or the sea, but the entire area had been grassland. The historical accounts seem to confirm that this invasion wasn't a rush, and the Dothraki used up the division between the independent sarnori city states, as well as other rulers in their conquest. We are told they didn't bother conquering cities and cout the duplly lines of many cities, starving them to the point they surrender. They aren't described nomadic or primitive (not at all), but for all we know, their numbers might have been incomparably low to the entirety of the Dothraki. You know they talk about how they don't use tactics, but at the same time they weren't just rushing against walls with an arakh on their horses, no matter what they say. 

That being said, I hope they remain in Essos, their resence would be unpleasant to me either way. If they come, they'll either perform pretty good (if George wants to, they'll be) or pretty goddamn horrible. As much as I would like to see them evaporate, I'd be happiest if they remain in Essos. 

I though it was 120 000 Sarnori against 80 000 Dothraki? But yeah, I would prefer if Dothraki were to remain in Essos. Martin seems to be basing them on a whole slew of misconceptions - most importantly, misconceptions abour Mongols - so reading about them in any clash against Westerosi would likely be quite painful.

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51 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Sarnori were a literally Bronze Age army, and displayed neither tactical sophistication nor discipline we have seen Westerosi show in those few major battles described in the book. That battle with Sarnori was one Zerg rush meeting another, and better Zergers (Dothraki) won. Also, Dothraki got lucky that their panicked retreat upon losing a khal turned into an ambush.

As for the Unsullied, that outcome was obvious to anyone except the Dothraki.

Fact is, the only serious armed force we have seen in Essos so far are Westerosi mercenaries. Everything else - Unsullied, Dothraki, Ghiscari - is either outdated, incompetent, or both.

I don't want to write an essay, so here:

https://fantasycore.home.blog/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

The Unsullied are trained in the manner of the old legions of Ghis. It took the efforts of the Valyrians many wars to finally defeat them. Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon only needed three dragons and a small army to kick the collective asses of the Westerosi noble houses and bring the Starks to their knees. The Unsullied are the best there is.  They will win against the knights of Westeros. Armor can be defeated. Even a giant like Clegane wearing the best heavy armor was brought down with a long spear.  That is what will happen on the battlefield. The Westerosi knights unfortunate enough to meet the Unsullied in battle will be wearing long sticks up their poop tunnels in a short amount of time, the bastards won’t be able to bend over to scratch their knees. They will be canned  meat in minutes. 

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18 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Problem is, all of these are an unknown factor. We do not know how they perform in battle, or even - in many cases - how they are equipped. The only portion of Daenerys' army we can be certain will perform well - or at all - are Westerosi mercenaries.

I though it was 120 000 Sarnori against 80 000 Dothraki? But yeah, I would prefer if Dothraki were to remain in Essos. Martin seems to be basing them on a whole slew of misconceptions - most importantly, misconceptions abour Mongols - so reading about them in any clash against Westerosi would likely be quite painful.

I think they'll perform well enough.  I think the Eastern States can only have endured so long if they have some reasonably competent soldiers. 

I'd expect the mercenaries to be on a par with the condottiere.

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3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Sarnori were a literally Bronze Age army, and displayed neither tactical sophistication nor discipline we have seen Westerosi show in those few major battles described in the book. That battle with Sarnori was one Zerg rush meeting another, and better Zergers (Dothraki) won. Also, Dothraki got lucky that their panicked retreat upon losing a khal turned into an ambush.

As for the Unsullied, that outcome was obvious to anyone except the Dothraki.

Fact is, the only serious armed force we have seen in Essos so far are Westerosi mercenaries. Everything else - Unsullied, Dothraki, Ghiscari - is either outdated, incompetent, or both.

I don't want to write an essay, so here:

https://fantasycore.home.blog/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

Ok I'll be honest here. From a storytelling point it makes no sense. I know for certain that the author isn't racist and making the white army from the West invincible against the barbaric coloured Easterners is extremely racist. Many readers may leave reading the books(myself included) if he does this. 

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Just now, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok I'll be honest here. From a storytelling point it makes no sense. I know for certain that the author isn't racist and making the white army from the West invincible against the barbaric coloured Easterners is extremely racist. Many readers may leave reading the books(myself included) if he does this. 

Please don't bring that to this thread. I come here because I'm sick and tired of the crap outside the general vicinity, to talk about ASOIAF not politics. 

You might have objections, but I personally simply want a good book to read. 

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6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Please don't bring that to this thread. I come here because I'm sick and tired of the crap outside the general vicinity, to talk about ASOIAF not politics. 

You might have objections, but I personally simply want a good book to read. 

I'm just saying what would happen if he did it. And since when is racism related with politics. Forgive me I'm not updated with USA current affairs. 

If you like reading it then it's your choice it's not like I can stop you

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23 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Unsullied are the best infantry on both continents. Fighting a battle is not the same as a duel. No army in Westeros will even come close to their professionalism. The question presented was how a combined force of The Unsullied and the Dothraki will do in Westeros. The answer, they can take on any army that the lords can bring to battle and win.  The number of armored knights are not enough. The majority of the fighting men in Westeros are part-timers. They do not stand a chance. That is why Robert, a man who understood war, was worried. 

Did you not read the example presented? The Unsullied effectively seem to have the same reputation for fighting as the Spartans, but the Spartans were only average. 

Combined, yes they do have a larger chance at winning. Especially since GRRM won't make them adopt the idiotic tactics shown in the show. 

Robert was only worried about the Dothraki only, you can't bring it into this context. Plus, Robert probably never left Westeros, probably never heard about how a lot of eunuchs managed to beat the twenty thousand Dothraki (Unsullied who had their flanks hanging straight out and who have no archers, though the archery problem is easily solved). 

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29 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok I'll be honest here. From a storytelling point it makes no sense. I know for certain that the author isn't racist and making the white army from the West invincible against the barbaric coloured Easterners is extremely racist. Many readers may leave reading the books(myself included) if he does this. 

Whether something is racist is not something I care about. But, whatever the cause, as he presented them, Dothraki and the Unsullied cannot win against the Westerosi.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think they'll perform well enough.  I think the Eastern States can only have endured so long if they have some reasonably competent soldiers. 

I'd expect the mercenaries to be on a par with the condottiere.

Maybe, but the question is, how good is "well enough"? Seljuks certainly performed "well enough" against the Byzantines, yet they were crushed by Western European armies until they learned (and unlike Dothraki, they did learn!) that taking Western knights head-on is a suicide. Ottomans performed excellently, yet Janos Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus repeatedly defeated them - and then in 1526. it was the Ottomans who crushed the Hungarians, despite the latter being among the more powerful European kingdoms at the time. And so on.

But, from what we have seen so far, Westerosi are definitely well above the Essosi average when it comes to warmaking potential. Sure, their expeditionary capability may be shit - but some of the most powerful and most renowned Essosi mercenary companies are organized and equipped on the Westerosi model (Golden Company, most obviously).

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Unsullied are trained in the manner of the old legions of Ghis. It took the efforts of the Valyrians many wars to finally defeat them. Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon only needed three dragons and a small army to kick the collective asses of the Westerosi noble houses and bring the Starks to their knees. The Unsullied are the best there is.  They will win against the knights of Westeros. Armor can be defeated. Even a giant like Clegane wearing the best heavy armor was brought down with a long spear.  That is what will happen on the battlefield. The Westerosi knights unfortunate enough to meet the Unsullied in battle will be wearing long sticks up their poop tunnels in a short amount of time, the bastards won’t be able to bend over to scratch their knees. They will be canned  meat in minutes. 

And? That is ancient history. Your argument is literally that the Macedonian Phalanx was the most dominant military formation of its time, and it took the effort of the Roman Republic to crush it, therefore Alexander the Great would have been able to conquer the entirety of the 14th century Europe.

Yes, Visenya, Rhaenys and Aegon only needed three dragons. We see repeatedly that a single fully-grown dragon can obliterate an army. You are also completely ignoring the fact that, by the time of Aegon the Conqueror, Valyrians were present in the Westeros for 300 years, and Valyria had been sunk about a century before the Conquest (with Targaryens arriving at about that time). In other words, it is all but certain that they were using Westerosi equipment and tactics, plus dragons, as opposed to the Essosi ones.

The Unsullied are nowhere near the best. The only "proofs" of their "quality" we have are claims of Jorah Mormont (hardly a reliable source), an salesman, and the fact that they defeated a bunch of mentally retarded wannabe Mongols. Yes, armour can be defeated. But you clearly don't know anything about armour if you think that it is easy. Unsullied have never fought opponents in full plate, as far as we know, and their equipment does not give any indication that they are equipped or trained to deal with armoured knight in full plate - or even with men in mail hauberks.

Yes, Clegane was brought down by a spear. In a single combat, and by a man who trained with and against armoured knights and knew all of their weaknesses. Unsullied fight in formation and thus will be unable to exploit weaknesses of plate armour in the way that Oberyn Martell was able to. They also have no experience in fighting well armoured opponents, even if Ser Barristan were to give them An Idiot's Guide to Killing Knights right away. And knights are trained fighters, and you can bet they know weaknesses of their armour far better than Unsullied will know them.

You clearly have no clue about medieval combat, weapons, or armour, so please stop throwing wild claims about.

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4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Unsullied are trained in the manner of the old legions of Ghis. It took the efforts of the Valyrians many wars to finally defeat them. Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon only needed three dragons and a small army to kick the collective asses of the Westerosi noble houses and bring the Starks to their knees. The Unsullied are the best there is.  They will win against the knights of Westeros. Armor can be defeated. Even a giant like Clegane wearing the best heavy armor was brought down with a long spear.  That is what will happen on the battlefield. The Westerosi knights unfortunate enough to meet the Unsullied in battle will be wearing long sticks up their poop tunnels in a short amount of time, the bastards won’t be able to bend over to scratch their knees. They will be canned  meat in minutes. 

Sigh. Let's go through how weapons work and are developed.

Weapons are not simply made. They're developed to counter the new types of other weapons and other armor. The Unsullied kit (shield, spears, shortsword) was made for people that would be wearing the same sort of armor they wore. But they do not have polearms, good mail defeating weapons, etc. 

The Unsullied fight as a group, yes that's good. But a spear or shortsword will have a very difficult time against full plate and mail. And before you say stuff like "crossbows and longbows with special tips can puncture plate", you'd have to be at point blank range with a crossbow against poor quality metal. And for longbows and fully armored knight, they didn't aim for the knight's breastplate. They aimed for the weak spots (visor, armpit, etc) and the horse. 

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I wouldnt waste my time with the Dany cultist. If dany had picked up an army of peasants with pitchforks. They’d claim that their devotion for their queen or empress (A title thats been thrown around) would help them overcome their military difficulties and defeat the evil usurpers knights.

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Also there are at least several environnements in Westeros that the Dothrakis and Unsullied aren't used to : mountains, especially those of the Vale, ice and snow, and possibly desert too. 

If Westerosi use these well, and if they aren't supported by Dany's dragons they are going to be in real troubles. 

I wouldn't bet on them if pitted against the gates of the moon or Moat Calin or Casterly Rock, nor to be more succesful than Aegon I and Daeron's armies against dornish guerilla, which I can honnestly see happening once the news of Quentyn's death reach Westeros and with Arianne likely marrying Aegon.

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The Dothraki and Unsullied would be classified as light cavalry and heavy infantry respectively based on role and armament. This is relevant based on this engagement chart: tactical_schematic.jpg (538×308) (xenograg.com)

Unsullied are best deployed as a phalanx but all we know about their armor is they have a a quilted tunic, shield and a helmet. That is gonna put them 8-10 centuries behind early medieval infantrymen who generally had a spear, mail shirt / coat, helmet, and sometimes a shield. The infantry stopped using shields because the mail / tunic combo was good enough at stopping arrows they could focus on cavalry. The unsullied are also weaker than typical Westerosi, per the great masters. So unless the Unsullied are re-armored with newer gear, they are going to be vulnerable against light infantry like archers or slingers, light cavalry, and westerosi heavy infantry.

Dothraki are unarmored horsemen with old timey swords and composite bows. Their vulnerabilities don't really need to be explained but they are especially vulnerable to heavy infantry -- like the pikemen and spearmen we see -- who can hold formation under charge and arrow fire. Any arrows fired their way will hit horses and humans in large percentages.

Without a large amount of trickery or rearmament, even the combined forces don't look good on paper. Paper shields and plot armor will do as they will in GRRM's world, but it would be fairly simple to update their weapons and armor en route to Westeros if Dany doesn't leave them behind for transport reasons. 

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