How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[Jaenara Belarys]

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The infantry stopped using shields because the mail / tunic combo was good enough at stopping arrows they could focus on cavalry.

That's wrong. Infantrymen stopped using shields because their armor transitioned into armor that was good enough at stopping arrows (half plate also known as almain rivet, coat of plates, brigandine, lamellar maybe, etc). They also had better armor for their legs. 

For mailed soldiers however, a shield like a kite shield the Lannisters have in the show is needed because an arrow can break the rings and/or slip through the gaps. They need it to resist a continued arrow barrage. 

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Dothraki and Unsullied would be classified as light cavalry and heavy infantry respectively based on role and armament. This is relevant based on this engagement chart: tactical_schematic.jpg (538×308) (xenograg.com)

 

I know that. But thanks for the schematic. 

 

Preferably what we should see for the Unsullied and Dothraki for their climates and their style of fighting is this (my opinion though):

The Unsullied should have something like a Roman lorica hamata (mail) or a simpler, less fragile version of the lorica segmentata. With padding underneath, of course. Maybe even a leather buff coat, but that might be too much for their environment. Basically, just Planetos Romans. 

The Dothraki should look like a mix of the Rohirrim and actual Mongols. You could have the Three Thousand play out the same (the excuse is that they haven't encountered it before, but that's kind of flimsy). After, they do develop better armor, weapons, tactics. There should also be more people with bows than arakhs, holding true to actual Mongols. And their society is nothing like the Mongols or the Native Americans, so fix that. I could go on, but that's not the point of the thread. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Incorrect. Infantrymen stopped using shields because their armor transitioned into armor that was good enough at stopping arrows (half plate also known as almain rivet, coat of plates, brigandine, lamellar maybe, etc). 

Well you can argue with me or you can argue with the Arab writers on the crusades who said the mailed infantry in the crusades looked like porcupines because of all the arrows sticking out of their chainmail and aketon, and that the "saracens" were impressed by the protection provided to the crusaders.  Either way the major point was to show that mail is effective against arrows whereas the lack of armor of the unsullied is definitely a disadvantage.

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For mailed soldiers however, a shield like a kite shield the Lannisters have in the show is needed because an arrow can break the rings and/or slip through the gaps. They need it to resist a continued arrow barrage. 

You really have to talk to the Islamic forces in the first and third crusades.

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I know that. But thanks for the schematic. 

Might I ask what gave you the fucking presumption that this was in any way shape or form meant for you?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

56 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Dothraki and Unsullied would be classified as light cavalry and heavy infantry respectively based on role and armament. This is relevant based on this engagement chart: tactical_schematic.jpg (538×308) (xenograg.com)

Unsullied are best deployed as a phalanx but all we know about their armor is they have a a quilted tunic, shield and a helmet. That is gonna put them 8-10 centuries behind early medieval infantrymen who generally had a spear, mail shirt / coat, helmet, and sometimes a shield. The infantry stopped using shields because the mail / tunic combo was good enough at stopping arrows they could focus on cavalry. The unsullied are also weaker than typical Westerosi, per the great masters. So unless the Unsullied are re-armored with newer gear, they are going to be vulnerable against light infantry like archers or slingers, light cavalry, and westerosi heavy infantry.

Dothraki are unarmored horsemen with old timey swords and composite bows. Their vulnerabilities don't really need to be explained but they are especially vulnerable to heavy infantry -- like the pikemen and spearmen we see -- who can hold formation under charge and arrow fire. Any arrows fired their way will hit horses and humans in large percentages.

Without a large amount of trickery or rearmament, even the combined forces don't look good on paper. Paper shields and plot armor will do as they will in GRRM's world, but it would be fairly simple to update their weapons and armor en route to Westeros if Dany doesn't leave them behind for transport reasons. 

Hence why they'll need support from Daenerys' dragons, and from heavy infantry and cavalry from Westeros badly, not counting the foot archers and skilled siege engineers. 

And above all they'll need some real strategy and tactics, because even the best force is going to face catastrophy without a good plan and a competent leader. 

So far Ser Barristan is the only real commander with experience of Westeros warfare, but Daenerys will need to find more and we don't know if he's that good of a general. 

[SeanF]

There’s no reason why Dany can’t equip the Unsullied with plate or mail, and the Dothraki with silk shirts and hardened leather armour, like Mongol light horse.

And a lot of the best soldiers in the Seven Kingdoms will  have perished by the time she gets there.

[Aldarion]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There’s no reason why Dany can’t equip the Unsullied with plate or mail, and the Dothraki with silk shirts and hardened leather armour, like Mongol light horse.

And a lot of the best soldiers in the Seven Kingdoms will  have perished by the time she gets there.

Dothraki apparently despise armour, so good luck with that. Also, they do not fight in the manner of Mongol light horse - and Mongols got defeated in Europe.

As for the Unsullied, it is a possibility. But even assuming that lack of experience in using armour is not an issue, that still leaves them with a fact that they are not trained to fight against armoured opponents: we see no evidence of the Unsullied using pollaxes, pikes, or other weapons which saw widespread use due to advances in armour.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Aldarion said:

Dothraki apparently despise armour, so good luck with that. Also, they do not fight in the manner of Mongol light horse - and Mongols got defeated in Europe.

As for the Unsullied, it is a possibility. But even assuming that lack of experience in using armour is not an issue, that still leaves them with a fact that they are not trained to fight against armoured opponents: we see no evidence of the Unsullied using pollaxes, pikes, or other weapons which saw widespread use due to advances in armour.

Ways change.  Genghis Khan made radical changes in Mongol military structures and methods of fighting, for example.

Another issue that needs to be addressed (and is not addressed enough in fiction) is logistics.  If Dany can organise her supplies effectively, and pays her soldiers, blacksmiths, fletchers, carters, grooms, merchants etc. on the nail (and the wealth of the East should enable this) she’ll be a long way towards victory, before a single battle is fought.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ways change.  Genghis Khan made radical changes in Mongol military structures and methods of fighting, for example.

Another issue that needs to be addressed (and is not addressed enough in fiction) is logistics.  If Dany can organise her supplies effectively, and pays her soldiers, blacksmiths, fletchers, carters, grooms, merchants etc. on the nail (and the wealth of the East should enable this) she’ll be a long way towards victory, before a single battle is fought.

But Daenerys is no Genghis Khan, and no Dothraki khal either so far. And it took years for Genghis Khan to change the mongols' military and organisation. 

For that she'll need to find and secure considerable food and gold or silver sources in Westeros, and that's one of the things that tell me that her campagin won't be easy even without the imminent threat of the Others. 

Dragonstone certainely won't be enough, the Stormlands can only give a limited amount of these, the Riverlands are devastated and will be in deep winter by the time Daenerys and her armies arrive to Westeros, only the Reach which is still relatively spared and not affected by winter yet can give her large supplies of foods and money. 

Thankfully for her I imagine that Willas and Garlan Tyrell will be willing to bow to her, out of pragmatism and possibly to get back at Aegon and the Reach rebels such as Randyll Tarly. 

[The Young Maester]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ways change.  Genghis Khan made radical changes in Mongol military structures and methods of fighting, for example.

Another issue that needs to be addressed (and is not addressed enough in fiction) is logistics.  If Dany can organise her supplies effectively, and pays her soldiers, blacksmiths, fletchers, carters, grooms, merchants etc. on the nail (and the wealth of the East should enable this) she’ll be a long way towards victory, before a single battle is fought.

Genghis had years to adjust his armies to his desire. Something which dany dosent.

In fact knights would actually wear mail as much as possible to get used to the weight, some would even sleep with mail on.

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Genghis had years to adjust his armies to his desire. Something which dany dosent.

In fact knights would actually wear mail as much as possible to get used to the weight, some would even sleep with mail on.

Really good quality armour is surprisingly light and easy to wear.  I’ve tried it.

[The Young Maester]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Really good quality armour is surprisingly light and easy to wear.  I’ve tried it.

Now try marching for days with it and fighting with it for hours.

And the quality dosent affect the weight much, only the durability.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Now try marching for days with it and fighting with it for hours.

And the quality dosent affect the weight much, only the durability.

There's a reason why Victarion, a noted warrior, complains about wearing chainmail day in and day out because of the poison arrows. Infantry didn't march in armor and knights didn't ride in it, unless under duress or ordered to. No need to add another 30 lbs or more to your weight unless you have to.

[Daenerysthegreat]

10 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I wouldnt waste my time with the Dany cultist. If dany had picked up an army of peasants with pitchforks. They’d claim that their devotion for their queen or empress (A title thats been thrown around) would help them overcome their military difficulties and defeat the evil usurpers knights.

No peasants can't defeat trained knights especially with just pitchforks. Where do you even get such an idea? 

And this thread is about how the unsullied and dothraki will fare in westeros. If they go against westerosi army. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No peasants can't defeat trained knights especially with just pitchforks. Where do you even get such an idea? 

 

He knows that. He's saying that if Dany had a theoretical army of peasants armed with pitchforks, that Moraine Sedai would claim that they could beat armored knights. Joking, sort of. 

5 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

And this thread is about how the unsullied and dothraki will fare in westeros. If they go against westerosi army. 

Indeed, it is.  As anyone who can read knows. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

40 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No peasants can't defeat trained knights especially with just pitchforks. Where do you even get such an idea? 

And this thread is about how the unsullied and dothraki will fare in westeros. If they go against westerosi army. 

I don't think you think Dany is a great as you think she should. Penance is required ser

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't think you think Dany is a great as you think she should. Penance is required ser

Of course dany is great. I can write essays on her kindness and goodness. But even she can't fight wars with peasants armed with pitchfork of all things

[Lord Lannister]

14 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok I'll be honest here. From a storytelling point it makes no sense. I know for certain that the author isn't racist and making the white army from the West invincible against the barbaric coloured Easterners is extremely racist. Many readers may leave reading the books(myself included) if he does this. 

I half wonder if this mindset is why Martin is dragging his feet on Winds. So many people are just eager to cancel someone for the sake of virtue signaling and being part of the lynch mob of the moment that no one will remember a month later.

[Aldarion]

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ways change.  Genghis Khan made radical changes in Mongol military structures and methods of fighting, for example.

Another issue that needs to be addressed (and is not addressed enough in fiction) is logistics.  If Dany can organise her supplies effectively, and pays her soldiers, blacksmiths, fletchers, carters, grooms, merchants etc. on the nail (and the wealth of the East should enable this) she’ll be a long way towards victory, before a single battle is fought.

Actually, if Martin considers logistics, Daenerys will not even bring Dothraki with her. In order for Dothraki to have a noticeable advantage in mobility over Westerosi, each rider will need half a dozen horses, as Mongols did. Bringing that sort of force, to Westeros, which is about to enter winter, would be idiocy of the highest order. Dothraki - or at least their horses - will die without anybody having to lift a finger.

As for "ways change", Genghis Khan's changes were primarily organizational. Mongol tactics were in fact almost unchanged, still based on their hunting patterns. Their equipment also remained the same. Daenerys will have to change far more than Genghis Khan did just to make Dothraki militarily competent, forget them matching the Mongols. And even Mongols would not beat 15th century Europe, which is essentially what Westeros is.

[Willam Stark]

22 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I know for certain that the author isn't racist and making the white army from the West invincible against the barbaric coloured Easterners is extremely racist.

I'll be honest as well, don't start this crap here. The debate is about military tactics and logistic, nothing more.

There are other topics and sections to talk about this subject, go check them out and stick to the main subject here.

22 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Many readers may leave reading the books(myself included) if he does this. 

Go ahead and give us a break.

22 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I'm just saying what would happen if he did it.

Write a letter to GRRM then, don't bring this up here since we are not the author.

[Jaenara Belarys]

45 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, if Martin considers logistics, Daenerys will not even bring Dothraki with her. In order for Dothraki to have a noticeable advantage in mobility over Westerosi, each rider will need half a dozen horses, as Mongols did. Bringing that sort of force, to Westeros, which is about to enter winter, would be idiocy of the highest order. Dothraki - or at least their horses - will die without anybody having to lift a finger.

 

Quick question: wouldn't they only need about three horses per rider? One packhorse, one to ride around and one to ride into battle?

17 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

I'll be honest as well, don't start this crap here. The debate is about military tactics and logistic, nothing more.

There are other topics and sections to talk about this subject, go check them out and stick to the main subject here

Indeed, thank you. 

[The Young Maester]

11 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No peasants can't defeat trained knights especially with just pitchforks. Where do you even get such an idea? 

And this thread is about how the unsullied and dothraki will fare in westeros. If they go against westerosi army. 

I can’t pick my mind, whether you don’t understand sarcasm or is it just plain ignorance.