How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[Ivashanko]

It's important to remember that GRRM is not a historian, a sociologist, or an expert in military theory. His worldbuilding, interesting though it is, breaks down pretty quickly.

But that's okay. We put up with implausible worldbuilding because we are more interested in the story than realism. GRRM is clearly basing the Dothraki on Western ideas of the eastern horselords, even though the Dothraki themselves don't use the tactics of the Mongols or Huns. And my guess is they will be just as effective in battle even if their stratagems don't make a ton of sense.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

I'll be honest as well, don't start this crap here. The debate is about military tactics and logistic, nothing more.

There are other topics and sections to talk about this subject, go check them out and stick to the main subject here.

Go ahead and give us a break.

Write a letter to GRRM then, don't bring this up here since we are not the author.

Well leave it 

Anyways it's not illogical to expect that dany will get armour for her soldiers along the way. She has barristan on her side he knows about westerosi armour and stuff

[Aldarion]

49 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Quick question: wouldn't they only need about three horses per rider? One packhorse, one to ride around and one to ride into battle?

 

If they are to achieve the sort of mobility Mongols had? Nowhere near enough. Three horses per rider is European standard, but European cavalry was only expected to keep pace with infantry - or, rather, supply carts - over long distances. Also, that figure of three horses per rider is for heavy cavalry. For Mongol army, three horses was a bare minimum. More often they had four or five, which appears to have been a typical number, and in some cases each rider could have 6 or 7.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Anyways it's not illogical to expect that dany will get armour for her soldiers along the way. She has barristan on her side he knows about westerosi armour and stuff

You do realize armor takes time to produce, correct? And even if they did pick up armor from looting corpses....that armor will undoubtedly have the same weakness and more, since it didn't repel whatever killed the wearer. 

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well leave it 

 

Leave the political stuff at the door. This is not a thread about politics, it's a thread about how the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros. If you want to rant about politics, do it somewhere else. Not here. 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Of course dany is great. I can write essays on her kindness and goodness. But even she can't fight wars with peasants armed with pitchfork of all things

So you're saying that Dany can't do what the Freys can do?

[Aldarion]

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So you're saying that Dany can't do what the Freys can do?

Freys didn't fight wars with peasants armed with pitchforks. Sure, they might have had some, but when we actually see actual Northern and Riverlands infantry at battle, these are trained - and equipped - soldiers.

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:38 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well yes they will be. But it will have an additional factor. Most of westerosi army is untrained peasants. 

A small % are pros. The knight class. Most are indeed peasants who are in the same shape as Fat Tommard and Alyn. That is not enough to stop an army whose every man is able-bodied. 

[Ivashanko]

1 hour ago, Laren Dorr said:

A small % are pros. The knight class. Most are indeed peasants who are in the same shape as Fat Tommard and Alyn. That is not enough to stop an army whose every man is able-bodied. 

Depends on the strategy used, honestly. If the Unsullied are heavy infranty that only employ the phalanx formation they will be cut to shreds by an army that utilises any sort of medieval combined arms doctrine.

It's important to note that in both the High Medieval Era and in Westeros a lot of those who fought weren't untrained peasants.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/vm1qv/did_medieval_armies_really_consist_mostly_on/

We also have evidence that great houses of Westeros trained their levied soldiers. We have explicit evidence that the Lannisters do, and the fairly complex tactics used by every army we've seen so far suggests that they have been trained too.

We also have one example of how an untrained army fights: the Wildlings. Jon remarks on their lack of coordination, tactics, and common sense*.

*It doesn't take a genius to realise that an arrow isn't going to hit someone standing on a wall 700ft above you.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 11/4/2021 at 3:22 PM, Laren Dorr said:

A small % are pros. The knight class. Most are indeed peasants who are in the same shape as Fat Tommard and Alyn. That is not enough to stop an army whose every man is able-bodied. 

Reread the Battle of the Green Fork chapter. Both sides seem to react fairly well, and use weapons and tactics that a simple farmer who had a spear or pike shoved into his hand can't replicate suddenly. They hold their ground when the arrows are raining down. They hold their ground when the Mountain and a fist of armored veterans are crashing towards them (part of a successful cavalry charge is the psychological factor. Did you watch The Return of the King and the Rohirrim charge? That's how a poorly trained, poorly equipped peasant mob will react, by breaking and fleeing.) Besides, if you were a farmer, I'd be willing to bet quite a lot on you being physically fit (farming and everything with it does take a bit of stamina). 

And at Oxcross, they attacked in army in training, and Tywin didn't intend to use said army until they were better than a rabble. The Frey soldiers that join Robb at the Twins are armed with pikes and armored with mail (which takes time and effort to make, which means a good cost). 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:58 PM, Aldarion said:

Freys didn't fight wars with peasants armed with pitchforks. Sure, they might have had some, but when we actually see actual Northern and Riverlands infantry at battle, these are trained - and equipped - soldiers.

You telling me those sexy peasants with Pitchforks and sharpened sticks won't win the north?!

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that real reason why Dothraki does not use any armor is that value of one screamer is minimal. After all their horde could lose 99.99% of their riders in just 1 battle but just couple moons later those couple survivors will somehow become new horde. Even their horses seem to have similar ability to multiply. So Dothraki do not have to care deaths of individuals.

[The Young Maester]

On 11/6/2021 at 7:51 PM, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that real reason why Dothraki does not use any armor is that value of one screamer is minimal. After all their horde could lose 99.99% of their riders in just 1 battle but just couple moons later those couple survivors will somehow become new horde. Even their horses seem to have similar ability to multiply. So Dothraki do not have to care deaths of individuals.

Dothraki are the leading manufacturers of the baby industry.

[Rondo]

How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

They will have no trouble in dispatching the defenses of Westeros if the battle is fought in a large, open battlefield.  Mountains and woods will be different.  The Dothraki and the Unsullied will crush any resistance if the venue is an open area where the mobility of the Dothraki and the precise movements of the Unsullied will be invincible.  

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:15 PM, Rondo said:

They will have no trouble in dispatching the defenses of Westeros if the battle is fought in a large, open battlefield.  Mountains and woods will be different.  The Dothraki and the Unsullied will crush any resistance if the venue is an open area where the mobility of the Dothraki and the precise movements of the Unsullied will be invincible.  

The Dothraki don't wear armor, the Unsullied wear textile armor (no way in hell that repels an arrow from a longbow or crossbow quarrel). By all reports, the Dothraki tactics are screaming at something and charging, and maybe loose the occasional arrow, and hope to hell it works. Charging a pike square or effective spear and shield wall head on is death, especially for unarmored light cavalry. 

A phalanx is vulnerable to lighter more flexible troops and missile troops. Both of which Westeros has in abundance, even with the WotFK (mostly in the Reach, Vale, Dorne, but even the areas that did suffer the most can probably field some men). 

[Julia H.]

They will likely win some battles and lose some other battles. The Dothraki will raid, pillage, murder and rape. As for the Unsullied, they seem to have been turned into some kind of robot soldiers (not literally, I know, but that's the impression I get when I read descriptions about them), and I really wonder if they will remain that way or if we find out that, despite everything, they are humans and individuals after all, and that war can affect them in various ways, as all other humans (including soldiers) are affected  individually as well, not only as a unified group. 

If you don't mind me introducing a different angle (and can forgive my lack of military knowledge), based on the books so far, the one sure thing that Martin says about war is that all involved parties bleed and suffer - armies, smallfolk and leaders alike. A military defeat is a devastating tragedy, but the winners do not necessarily live happily ever after. Robb Stark lost the war without losing a battle, the Lannisters won a war, yet where are they now? Renly was sure of victory due to his large army, but he was killed by a shadow. And so on... War changes lives and rarely for the better, when all is said and done. 

In Dany's case, her most effective weapons must be the dragons, otherwise why would they be there in the story? Her armies will provide the numbers, but it's the dragons that make her special. And that, too, raises questions...

Her dragons are younger and less experienced than Aegon's were, however, let's face it, experience may come along the way, and the author can decide how fast her dragons would grow. Then, in order to make full use of her three dragons, she will need to find two willing dragonsriders she can trust. Not impossible, of course, the author can certainly arrange it, though the trust might be a big issue. Then there is also the problem that she will need to ride to battle personally, as Aegon did, and directly kill people, if not with her own hand, then with her own dragon, and the dragon is pretty much an extension of her own self. Dany, though, is not a warrior.

Dragons can eliminate the defenders of a castle, but will not make much distinction between enemy soldiers and smallfolk, who Dany (supposedly) looks at as "her own people". The same is true of the smallfolk the Dothraki will brutalize. One important difference between her and Genghis Khan, I think, is that the latter never thought of the conquered people as anything else but chattel to acquire and use, whereas Dany is supposedly "going home" to a people of her own. How will she reconcile that with the use of this very effective but rather indiscriminate weapon that the dragons represent as well as with letting the Dothraki loose in Westeros? Or, if she prevents the Dothraki from wreaking havoc in every village, how is she going to keep their loyalty?

I also wonder what will happen in an open battle field - will she attack with the dragons, too, exposing many of her own soldiers ("children") to dragon fire, or will she remain distant, choosing not to use her most powerful weapon? (How did Aegon do that?) I see a lot of issues there even if the military campaign is successful.

 

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

Unlike the silly tactics in the show, I expect the Dothraki will use the same tactics that light cavalry have traditionally used;  namely charge the enemy, loose arrows from the saddle, then wheel and turn,  before charging in to repeat the process.

Only very well-disciplined soldiers will keep formation under such constant provocation.   The feigned retreat works surprisingly often as a tactic.  If the enemy break formation, Dany then sends in the sellsword heavy cavalry to rout them.  
 

The Unsullied should be fine as heavy infantry, combined with archers, pikemen, axemen etc.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

They will likely win some battles and lose some other battles. The Dothraki will raid, pillage, murder and rape. As for the Unsullied, they seem to have been turned into some kind of robot soldiers (not literally, I know, but that's the impression I get when I read descriptions about them), and I really wonder if they will remain that way or if we find out that, despite everything, they are humans and individuals after all, and that war can affect them in various ways, as all other humans (including soldiers) are affected  individually as well, not only as a unified group. 

If you don't mind me introducing a different angle (and can forgive my lack of military knowledge), based on the books so far, the one sure thing that Martin says about war is that all involved parties bleed and suffer - armies, smallfolk and leaders alike. A military defeat is a devastating tragedy, but the winners do not necessarily live happily ever after. Robb Stark lost the war without losing a battle, the Lannisters won a war, yet where are they now? Renly was sure of victory due to his large army, but he was killed by a shadow. And so on... War changes lives and rarely for the better, when all is said and done. 

In Dany's case, her most effective weapons must be the dragons, otherwise why would they be there in the story? Her armies will provide the numbers, but it's the dragons that make her special. And that, too, raises questions...

Her dragons are younger and less experienced than Aegon's were, however, let's face it, experience may come along the way, and the author can decide how fast her dragons would grow. Then, in order to make full use of her three dragons, she will need to find two willing dragonsriders she can trust. Not impossible, of course, the author can certainly arrange it, though the trust might be a big issue. Then there is also the problem that she will need to ride to battle personally, as Aegon did, and directly kill people, if not with her own hand, then with her own dragon, and the dragon is pretty much an extension of her own self. Dany, though, is not a warrior.

Dragons can eliminate the defenders of a castle, but will not make much distinction between enemy soldiers and smallfolk, who Dany (supposedly) looks at as "her own people". The same is true of the smallfolk the Dothraki will brutalize. One important difference between her and Genghis Khan, I think, is that the latter never thought of the conquered people as anything else but chattel to acquire and use, whereas Dany is supposedly "going home" to a people of her own. How will she reconcile that with the use of this very effective but rather indiscriminate weapon that the dragons represent as well as with letting the Dothraki loose in Westeros? Or, if she prevents the Dothraki from wreaking havoc in every village, how is she going to keep their loyalty?

I also wonder what will happen in an open battle field - will she attack with the dragons, too, exposing many of her own soldiers ("children") to dragon fire, or will she remain distant, choosing not to use her most powerful weapon? (How did Aegon do that?) I see a lot of issues there even if the military campaign is successful.

 

 

 

 

 

The Unsullied are becoming individuals, choosing their own names (important to ex-slaves), electing their own officers, training up the freedmen.  Over time, one should expect to see them choosing shields with their own designs, keeping favourite items of equipment they’ve taken from their enemies.

[Julia H.]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Unsullied are becoming individuals, choosing their own names (important to ex-slaves), electing their own officers, training up the freedmen.  Over time, one should expect to see them choosing shields with their own designs, keeping favourite items of equipment they’ve taken from their enemies.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Discovering their humanity is essential for this group, but I think it will also come with discovering the same vulnerability that is associated with all humans, which may mean that they are not the kind of "perfect military machine" their in-world reputation implies.

[SeanF]

24 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Discovering their humanity is essential for this group, but I think it will also come with discovering the same vulnerability that is associated with all humans, which may mean that they are not the kind of "perfect military machine" their in-world reputation implies.

To overcome that vulnerability, you have to foster group cohesion and loyalty to comrades.  Loyalty to comrades is easily the most important factor that persuades soldiers to keep fighting in desperate circumstances.  The calibre of officers is crucial.

By selling them off by centuries, the Good Masters would never really have developed that group cohesion (and indeed, with such cohesion, the Unsullied would probably have seized power in Astapor). 

The fact they flatly refuse to serve Hizdahr, but will follow Barristan, suggests they have developed that cohesion.  They probably now see themselves similarly to janissaries or a Roman legion.  And will reject a commander they despise.

[Raven Princling]

I expect them to perform extremely well, combined with Dany's dragons. Dothraki will most likely do what they always do- pillage, rape, murder and raid. If Daenerys commands them not to, a faction will do it anyway. They might lose some battles against the Westerosi, because the latter know the layout of the land better so some great deceptive tactics are to be expected.

Overall, this great performance of dragons, an army of Dothraki and an army of what are essentially emotionally abused, mindless slaves will most likely contribute to people's (smallfolk especially) hatred for Daenerys. It could lead to her downfall. With how Quentyn's arc ended in Dance, she will have little to no support among the Westerosi.