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How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?


Jaenara Belarys

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On 11/28/2021 at 8:54 AM, SeanF said:

By selling them off by centuries, the Good Masters would never really have developed that group cohesion (and indeed, with such cohesion, the Unsullied would probably have seized power in Astapor). 

It's always odd when I read the "pitch" chapters talking about the Unsullied. I think you've read Unmitigated Pedantry, but the summary of the stuff is that a lot of getting heavy infantry to work effectively was the cohesive element. Calling a soldier a Worm or a Toad seems like a horrible way to build that. Though that could be offset by them training in the same units for years. 

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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It's always odd when I read the "pitch" chapters talking about the Unsullied. I think you've read Unmitigated Pedantry, but the summary of the stuff is that a lot of getting heavy infantry to work effectively was the cohesive element. Calling a soldier a Worm or a Toad seems like a horrible way to build that. Though that could be offset by them training in the same units for years. 

Brett Devereaux is very good.

It’s bit of a bugbear of mine when the Unsullied get described as “mindless robots”.  That’s very much the Good Masters’ outlook, but one should not assume that the Good Masters (or other slavers, like Xaro or the Green Grace) are speaking for the author.

Choosing one’s own name is *very* important to a freed slave.  The election of their own officers, the worship of their own goddess, their ability to train up the freedmen, their discussions about battle plans, and their refusal to serve Hizdahr show these are people who think for themselves.

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First you need to get them to Westeros. Is the Iron Fleet  big enough to transport a sufficiently big horde of Dothraki with their horses (and they need multiple mounts each) along with food and water for them? The Unsullied would pose the same problem on a much smaller scale. So, logistics would be very important. Lucky for them Martin is good at glossing over problems of this sort.

And then you have the fact that these guys are warm-weather types and Winter is Coming. Dothraki rawhide vests and Unsullied tunics won't be much help against freezing temperatures.

So, the Dothraki and Unsullied have more to worry about than just heavy cavalry and peasant levies. 

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17 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

It’s bit of a bugbear of mine when the Unsullied get described as “mindless robots”.  That’s very much the Good Masters’ outlook, but one should not assume that the Good Masters (or other slavers, like Xaro or the Green Grace) are speaking for the author.

 

I brought up the "robot" image (though I didn't say anything about "mindless"). Of course, it is the masters' description of the Unsullied (and I never assumed they were speaking for the author), but it seems to me that this "robotic" quality (they feel no pain, they are extremely obedient, they have been trained to have no desires of their own) is advertised as their special strength as an army, that practically they have been dehumanized to the extent where they are immune to common human vulnerabilities, therefore they are extremely reliable as soldiers and so on. I know they are human, but I think this image has been imprinted in their own minds as well, and it is a psychological barrier that they, as individuals, need to overcome.

Yes, it is a good thing they have now their own names and certain choices. However, all this may not result in immediate happiness and contentment because their past sufferings may not disappear so easily. If this awakening goes as far as it should, some of them, perhaps many of them, may realize (for example) that they do not want to be soldiers at all, since they never made this choice to start with, nor was it their "natural" destiny (as, for example, a smith may inherit the trade from his father). Some of them may feel they are entitled to more "compensation" than they have been given, and may try to take it by force, or, in a foreign land, some of them may just be tempted to leave behind everything and to start a completely new life and so on. Psychologically, such awakening to their own humanity may result in various outcomes in different individuals - many of them will remain truly loyal to Dany, while others may crave something completely different (even if it is unrealistic), and, all in all, they may become a more "ordinary" army, consisting not of "dehumanized robots" but by thousands of deeply traumatized human beings.

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4 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

First you need to get them to Westeros. Is the Iron Fleet  big enough to transport a sufficiently big horde of Dothraki with their horses (and they need multiple mounts each) along with food and water for them? The Unsullied would pose the same problem on a much smaller scale. So, logistics would be very important. Lucky for them Martin is good at glossing over problems of this sort.

And then you have the fact that these guys are warm-weather types and Winter is Coming. Dothraki rawhide vests and Unsullied tunics won't be much help against freezing temperatures.

So, the Dothraki and Unsullied have more to worry about than just heavy cavalry and peasant levies. 

Transportation is going to be a problem.  No question there.  However, all the other stuff you mentioned are non-factors.  There is nothing to hinder the Dothraki from layering and wearing suitable uniforms for the conquest of Westeros.  The Dothraki are not primitives like the backwards wildlings.  The Dothraki have the means to procure armor.  Khal Drogo had a palace in Pentos.  They are nomads because they choose to.  They are not primitives like the mountain clan, the northern clans, and the wildlings.  The Unsullied can be equipped as well as any army in Westeros.  Better I would say.  Fighting is their occupation and what they do.  Funding is not going to be a problem if Dany should decide to confiscate some of the wealth from the slavers.  That source is basically an unlimited well of gold from which to draw from.  Westeros is suffering from economic woes because of Robert's incompetence at ruling and the ongoing devastation from the war of the 5 kings.  Westeros as it is now has no chance to defend against even Drogo's old khalasar if they are backed by Dany's Unsullied.  The size of the Targaryen military is ever growing as many men who were slaves are now in training to join her.  The prophecy says Dany's khalasar will be great in number.  She could choose to take 100 thousand Dothraki riders and fully outfit them in the appropriate kind of armor for cavalry.  Her Unsullied will wear the right armor they need for the job.  The raw materials for making weapons and armor are much, much more plentiful in Essos.  It will be the heavy cavalry and peasant levies of Westeros who will be tucking their tails between their legs to hide behind their walls.  The ones who survive the initial assault from the Dothraki might make it behind the protection of their walls.  The ones with no walls to run to will be ground fertilizer after their corpses are trampled by the great Dothraki hordes.  Dany will bring additional power to Westeros to fight beside her Unsullied and her Dothraki.  She will have the backing of the winner of the slave revolt in Volantis.   The soldiers will follow and serve her because she is Mhysa to them. The people of Westeros are already starting to lose faith in their government.  They will soon lose faith in the seven when the white walkers start raiding their cities.  They will turn to Essos and start praying to another religion for their salvation.  They just might accept Benerro and his church of Rhllor.  This church has already chosen to side with Dany. 

 

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3 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Transportation is going to be a problem.  No question there.  However, all the other stuff you mentioned are non-factors.  There is nothing to hinder the Dothraki from layering and wearing suitable uniforms for the conquest of Westeros.  The Dothraki are not primitives like the backwards wildlings.  The Dothraki have the means to procure armor.  Khal Drogo had a palace in Pentos.  They are nomads because they choose to.  They are not primitives like the mountain clan, the northern clans, and the wildlings.  The Unsullied can be equipped as well as any army in Westeros.  Better I would say.  Fighting is their occupation and what they do.  Funding is not going to be a problem if Dany should decide to confiscate some of the wealth from the slavers.  That source is basically an unlimited well of gold from which to draw from.  Westeros is suffering from economic woes because of Robert's incompetence at ruling and the ongoing devastation from the war of the 5 kings.  Westeros as it is now has no chance to defend against even Drogo's old khalasar if they are backed by Dany's Unsullied.  The size of the Targaryen military is ever growing as many men who were slaves are now in training to join her.  The prophecy says Dany's khalasar will be great in number.  She could choose to take 100 thousand Dothraki riders and fully outfit them in the appropriate kind of armor for cavalry.  Her Unsullied will wear the right armor they need for the job.  The raw materials for making weapons and armor are much, much more plentiful in Essos.  It will be the heavy cavalry and peasant levies of Westeros who will be tucking their tails between their legs to hide behind their walls.  The ones who survive the initial assault from the Dothraki might make it behind the protection of their walls.  The ones with no walls to run to will be ground fertilizer after their corpses are trampled by the great Dothraki hordes.  Dany will bring additional power to Westeros to fight beside her Unsullied and her Dothraki.  She will have the backing of the winner of the slave revolt in Volantis.   The soldiers will follow and serve her because she is Mhysa to them. The people of Westeros are already starting to lose faith in their government.  They will soon lose faith in the seven when the white walkers start raiding their cities.  They will turn to Essos and start praying to another religion for their salvation.  They just might accept Benerro and his church of Rhllor.  This church has already chosen to side with Dany. 

 

You make a lot of suppositions. The Dothraki despise armor. I can't see them accepting it if they make it to Westeros. And even bundled up nice and warm they'd have a tough time in the snow, which they have no experience with or understanding of. They also have no knowledge of tactics beyond a straight-ahead charge. As to not being primitive, just saying so doesn't make it so. They might make good White Walkers, though.

You mention how Dany has all these followers, with the potential to gain more. She's actually a sort of  Mao Tse-Tung figure in that she's a successful military leader but when she tried to actually govern she's quite incompetent. Look at her attempted reforms in the Slaver cities.

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  • 6 months later...

Dothraki will win on the fields easily, unsullied can be used in sieges. Most people are too preoccupied with arms and armor to realize how historical battles usually went. Dothraki has been around for three thousand years, constantly fighting against all kinds of foes including heavy cavalry and possibly some knights too and in 300 years they havent changed their equipment or their strategy, which means that it evidently works. Other than battle of Qohor, where they fought like braindead, they had performed very well and have inspired a fear and respect unlike any other faction except maybe faceless men. Compared them with westerosi armies which are mostly made up of peasants with some men at arms and sergeants, they have longbowmen but dothraki bows are superior both in power and range and knights who although have best armor and dangerous in melee are very ill suited to face a mobile force like dothraki.

Moreover a force such as drogo's khal would be superior in both numbers and mobility compared to anything westeros throws its way and before kings landing will muster a response i think most of the petty lords in stormlands and reach will be wiped out except those who hide in there castles. There are a few things that will help westeros such as geography of places like vale, dorne, north, stone castles and crossbowmen and ambushes in the forest etc. but on the field they will get destroyed. While knights maybe great individual fighters they are rarely battle winners and most of the great knights in westeros history generally fought on loosing sides such as daemon blackfyre, jaime lannister, barristan selmy and even robert got laid out by tarly. This shows that in battles individual fighting prowess usually means jack sh*t.

Historically too light cavalry has generally outperformed heavy cavalry, even in europe they had to eventually ditch knights in armor for lighter more mobile and also ranged cavalry. Against mouted archers western armies had performed very poorly untill crossbows and gunpowder came along. Most people are drawing historical parallels from mongol invasion of europe which is good but a better comparison would be crusades and especially in battles against seljuks and mamelukes, which were mostly composed of mounted archers. Now they were armored and had more importantly shields but horse archers were the undisputed mvps during crusades so much so that even crusaders generally employed turcopoles and mouted archers to counter muslims. Also commanches successfully fought off multiple spanish invasions while cosplaying as dothraki so for those who are obsessing over armor, yes its important but tactically maneuverability is way more important than armor in my eyes. The battle would look something like crusade of 1101.

In actuality a battle between roberts westeros and khal drogo would look like this, where dothraki would land in soft spot like weeping town or griffins roost start pillaging and raiding when individual lords would respond they will be wiped out. Robert would call the banners while dothraki would repond by ambushing and attacking smaller contingent of men. Robert would get impatient and will march out, leaves other contigents to follow. Drogo would ambush him, Robert would beat them, Dothraki feigns retreat regroup and second ambush with much greater numbers entire force gets wiped out, Drogo marches on and catches contigents from the reach, destroys them similarly. Westeros in turmoil, westerlands refuse to send army as does vale. Northern army still stuck in the neck. Dorne guards passes and defeats occasional dothraki harassers. iron islands again announce independence. Only stannis is left to deal with this threat and realizing the situation he retreats back to dragonstone to build a navy and an army drogo reaches kings landing sacks the sh*t out of it. If denaerys with him then puts her on the throne and 

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I think the Dothraki and Unsullied will perform well, but mostly because of plot. Both seem to me like they are way over-estimated and should be actually pretty bad but since Dany need a army to go with her dragons (only one ridden for the moment and still very young) they will do the task. They shouldnt but I belive they will, just like how other things dont make sence but still work in this world.

The Dothraki were a threat during the trouble after the Doom but since then they seem to have done nothing of note and have not changed at all, and even then they victories seem weird. They are great against unarmoured and untrained peasant (wich Westerosi army's are not) but we never hear of them actually beating a organized army outside of the Sarnori who seem to have been really incompetent and unlucky. In fact after they were beaten once by the Unsullied in Qohor they never conquer anything again, not really a impressive resume. They are certainly the best riders in the world and some of the best warriors but they are not cavalerymen and soldier's, a pike wall and archer's will destroy them, heavy horse too if they manage to make contact.

The Unsullied are in a better position, they seem to kinda work as medium infantery (they are supposed to be heavy infantery I know but they're armour is just not good enougth for me) they have coordination and discipline, they would hold they're own against most of what Westeros can throw at them if they're reputation is true. But is it really ? They're are suppose to be the ghiscari legion's reborn but those legion's are from antiquity and were defeated. And as of the Unsullied own achievement ? They defeated the Dothraki who as I said I dont consider that good but outside of that they're is little to speak of. They seem to be only really employed by Qohor who was sacked by the Golden Compagny, so thats a defeat for them at the hands of a Westerosi army. The for ever at war army's of the Free City's dont seem to employ Unsullied at all, one would think that "the best infantery in the world" would be very present in the Disputed lands but no, they only seem to be used has guards by the wealthy, a task that they do seem to be very good at.

So yeah I think both those groups are over-inflated to what they realistically should be, but since Dany need at least a competent army and they seem to be destined to be the backbone of her army, I think George will make them better than they should.

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4 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I think the Dothraki and Unsullied will perform well, but mostly because of plot. Both seem to me like they are way over-estimated and should be actually pretty bad but since Dany need a army to go with her dragons (only one ridden for the moment and still very young) they will do the task. They shouldnt but I belive they will, just like how other things dont make sence but still work in this world.

The Dothraki were a threat during the trouble after the Doom but since then they seem to have done nothing of note and have not changed at all, and even then they victories seem weird. They are great against unarmoured and untrained peasant (wich Westerosi army's are not) but we never hear of them actually beating a organized army outside of the Sarnori who seem to have been really incompetent and unlucky. In fact after they were beaten once by the Unsullied in Qohor they never conquer anything again, not really a impressive resume. They are certainly the best riders in the world and some of the best warriors but they are not cavalerymen and soldier's, a pike wall and archer's will destroy them, heavy horse too if they manage to make contact.

 

Well if whoever commands the Dothraki doesn't run them right into a horde of zombies, they shouldn't do too badly. But going the other way Viserys had no hope of having 10000 Dothraki going up against an army led by Robert Baratheon.

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24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well if whoever commands the Dothraki doesn't run them right into a horde of zombies, they shouldn't do too badly. But going the other way Viserys had no hope of having 10000 Dothraki going up against an army led by Robert Baratheon.

Oh for sure the Dothraki are not useless, they actually can be quite good in some circumstances like pursuit, and a competent commander would make use of them. But yeah Viserys had 0 chances just with the Dothraki.

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On 11/30/2021 at 11:36 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

You make a lot of suppositions. The Dothraki despise armor. I can't see them accepting it if they make it to Westeros. And even bundled up nice and warm they'd have a tough time in the snow, which they have no experience with or understanding of. They also have no knowledge of tactics beyond a straight-ahead charge. As to not being primitive, just saying so doesn't make it so. They might make good White Walkers, though.

You mention how Dany has all these followers, with the potential to gain more. She's actually a sort of  Mao Tse-Tung figure in that she's a successful military leader but when she tried to actually govern she's quite incompetent. Look at her attempted reforms in the Slaver cities.

I don't think we should  jump to the conclusion that it does not get cold or snow in the Dothraki Sea. In fact, it's very likely that it does snow a bit.

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

They are great against unarmoured and untrained peasant

By the time that Daenerys comes, the majority of Westerosi armies will be unarmored and untrained. Except for Dorne and the Vale, Westeros is spent.

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

The Unsullied are in a better position, they seem to kinda work as medium infantery (they are supposed to be heavy infantery I know but they're armour is just not good enougth for me)

You do know that they can be outfitted with heavier armor, right?

Dany will soon have the money to do so. She technically already does

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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

By the time that Daenerys comes, the majority of Westerosi armies will be unarmored and untrained. Except for Dorne and the Vale, Westeros is spent.

I disagree, only the North and Riverlands are really spent, perhaps the Westerlands too. But the Reach still has plenty of figthing men in arms, and can field more. The Ironborn also are mainly untouched. The Stormlands while suffer with the attack of fAegon but they migth still be able to field a descent amout of men. So by the time she arrives they could be gone or even more experienced, and they would still be well armed and armoured.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

You do know that they can be outfitted with heavier armor, right?

Dany will soon have the money to do so. She technically already does

She sure can, but has she done it yet ? No. Will she think of it ? Perhaps but that is not certains she is not well versed in military matters and should something happen to Barristan who will pitch her the idea ?

She has the money yes but who will make this armour ? Half of the world is against her at the moment so she will first have to deal with them. We dont know if the Ghiscari city's have the material and blacksmith's to make such armour in suffisant quantity (otherwise they would most likely already use it). So she will have to turn to Qohor or Volantis, both slaver city's and at least one of them on a War path with her.

They is absolutly room for the Unsellied to be better equiped but until it happens they will be subpar in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I disagree, only the North and Riverlands are really spent, perhaps the Westerlands too. But the Reach still has plenty of figthing men in arms, and can field more. The Ironborn also are mainly untouched. The Stormlands while suffer with the attack of fAegon but they migth still be able to field a descent amout of men. So by the time she arrives they could be gone or even more experienced, and they would still be well armed and armoured.

Good point. The Ironborn are mainly untouched.

But the Stormlands lost a lot in A Clash of Kings. And they will stand to lose more with fAegon before (or should I say if) they embrace them. 

However, I have a feeling that the Reach is able to be really cut down in The Winds of Winter. Between the High Septon and the inquisition, Euron's invasion and whatever horrors he is planning and then fAegon's crusade (and maybe even endless anarchy in the Riverlands), the Reach has been spread very thin.

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7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Good point. The Ironborn are mainly untouched.

But the Stormlands lost a lot in A Clash of Kings. And they will stand to lose more with fAegon before (or should I say if) they embrace them. 

However, I have a feeling that the Reach is able to be really cut down in The Winds of Winter. Between the High Septon and the inquisition, Euron's invasion and whatever horrors he is planning and then fAegon's crusade (and maybe even endless anarchy in the Riverlands), the Reach has been spread very thin.

I would not discount the Stormlands so easly, both the Swann's and Tarth seem to have been mostly out of the figth, they also are among the more powerfull lords of the region. Tarth as fallen we are told but not in wich manner, perhaps it was bloodless.

Your are rigth that the Reach is somewhat spread thin but it all depends on what happens in the next book, should Euron be beaten to no great cost (I think that he is at least partly BS'ing and not the threat that some think he is) and a accord found between the High Septon and the Tyrell's they would still have two great army's should the third go to fAegon or be defeated. It really depend on what happen's in between. Hell Dany could die before she ever leaves.

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The Dothraki is the best cavalry.  The Unsullied the best infantry.  They will make short work of any army that Westeros can bring to the field.  Even Robert had to admit that the best Westeros can do is retreat inside their castles.  Jorah commented on what he thought the army of Westeros would react when Dothraki arrows start coming down their heads.  

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On 6/16/2022 at 6:30 AM, Roswell said:

The Dothraki is the best cavalry.  The Unsullied the best infantry.  They will make short work of any army that Westeros can bring to the field.  Even Robert had to admit that the best Westeros can do is retreat inside their castles.  Jorah commented on what he thought the army of Westeros would react when Dothraki arrows start coming down their heads.  

They aren't and they won't. Dothraki especially are useless. They are essentially discount Mongols - and unlike Mongols, so far they have shown no heavy shock cavalry, no gunpowder weapons, no combined arms operations and complex C3ISR systems that Mongols possessed... Dothraki have literally nothing that made Mongols dangerous. And even Mongols got stopped by rather Westerosi-like terrain and fortifications (good example is Mongol invasion of Hungary).

Westerosi armies are basically set up perfectly to deal with Mongol-style enemies. Massive stone castles? Check. Heavy shock cavalry? Check. Heavy infantry? Check. Massed ranged infantry? Check. And Dothraki lack most of the things that made Mongols dangerous. They are more similar to Huns than to Mongols, and even Huns would ride all over them.

Problem is that much of the fighting force of Westeros will be spent by the time she arrives. But even then she is not guaranteed even quantitative advantage, let alone qualitative one.

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6 hours ago, Aldarion said:

They aren't and they won't. Dothraki especially are useless. They are essentially discount Mongols - and unlike Mongols, so far they have shown no heavy shock cavalry, no gunpowder weapons, no combined arms operations and complex C3ISR systems that Mongols possessed... Dothraki have literally nothing that made Mongols dangerous. And even Mongols got stopped by rather Westerosi-like terrain and fortifications (good example is Mongol invasion of Hungary).

Westerosi armies are basically set up perfectly to deal with Mongol-style enemies. Massive stone castles? Check. Heavy shock cavalry? Check. Heavy infantry? Check. Massed ranged infantry? Check. And Dothraki lack most of the things that made Mongols dangerous. They are more similar to Huns than to Mongols, and even Huns would ride all over them.

Problem is that much of the fighting force of Westeros will be spent by the time she arrives. But even then she is not guaranteed even quantitative advantage, let alone qualitative one.

Depends; will whoever commands the Dothraki have smarter tactics than ramming them into a wall? That's how they lost against the Unsullied at Qohor, and running them against a horde of zombies.

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Dothraki use neither armor nor shields so any enemy using projectile weapons should be huge problem for them. Secondly main purpose of arakh is cutting and even mail armor should give very effective protection from any attack of that kind. So main weapon of Dothraki should be almost useless in Westeros where most warriors are armored.

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On 6/14/2022 at 11:56 AM, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I think the Dothraki and Unsullied will perform well, but mostly because of plot. Both seem to me like they are way over-estimated and should be actually pretty bad but since Dany need a army to go with her dragons (only one ridden for the moment and still very young) they will do the task. They shouldnt but I belive they will, just like how other things dont make sence but still work in this world.

The Dothraki were a threat during the trouble after the Doom but since then they seem to have done nothing of note and have not changed at all, and even then they victories seem weird. They are great against unarmoured and untrained peasant (wich Westerosi army's are not) but we never hear of them actually beating a organized army outside of the Sarnori who seem to have been really incompetent and unlucky. In fact after they were beaten once by the Unsullied in Qohor they never conquer anything again, not really a impressive resume. They are certainly the best riders in the world and some of the best warriors but they are not cavalerymen and soldier's, a pike wall and archer's will destroy them, heavy horse too if they manage to make contact.

The Unsullied are in a better position, they seem to kinda work as medium infantery (they are supposed to be heavy infantery I know but they're armour is just not good enougth for me) they have coordination and discipline, they would hold they're own against most of what Westeros can throw at them if they're reputation is true. But is it really ? They're are suppose to be the ghiscari legion's reborn but those legion's are from antiquity and were defeated. And as of the Unsullied own achievement ? They defeated the Dothraki who as I said I dont consider that good but outside of that they're is little to speak of. They seem to be only really employed by Qohor who was sacked by the Golden Compagny, so thats a defeat for them at the hands of a Westerosi army. The for ever at war army's of the Free City's dont seem to employ Unsullied at all, one would think that "the best infantery in the world" would be very present in the Disputed lands but no, they only seem to be used has guards by the wealthy, a task that they do seem to be very good at.

So yeah I think both those groups are over-inflated to what they realistically should be, but since Dany need at least a competent army and they seem to be destined to be the backbone of her army, I think George will make them better than they should.

I like to believe that both the Unsullied and the Dothraki will face serious challenges if they head to Westeros. Would make the plot more interesting and give Dany somewhat of a reality check. 

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