How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[WeesesDog]

Ser Jorah did not believe Westerosi would perform well against Dothraki.

He said a Dothraki ride as well as any knight and only one man in ten at the Trident was a knight. Peasant levies would not stand when the arrows fall like rain. His exact words, a seasoned warrior who has seen both in action.

There is an assumption in this thread they would fight like they did at Qhohor. They might not, especially under the command of others who know Westerosi weaknesses.

Someone like Barristan knows Westerosi armies intimately and would use the Dothraki accordingly.

In the open field they could potentially cut Westerosi armies to pieces.

You assume they will charge and be cut down. They cold just as easily under a smart commander like Barristan wheel away and lead knights into ambush. Tire them, defeat them in detail using their mobility and mop up the rest.

Jorah did also say they could not defeat the meanest castle. They have no siegecraft.

They are a warrior culture and all proficient with arms. Added to mobility they are a deadly threat if used correctly.

The Dothraki  in numbers as long as they were under a commander who understood their limitations but also knew Westerosi warfare like a Jorah or a Barristan they could whittle down, outmaneuvre and crush the armies of Westeros in the field.

They live their lives in the saddle. All can fight. Can you imagine the slaughter if they came upon a westerosi army in camp unprepared?

Robert had it right. Hide in your castles.

 

 

[YungWolf]

52 minutes ago, WeesesDog said:

Ser Jorah did not believe Westerosi would perform well against Dothraki.

He said a Dothraki ride as well as any knight and only one man in ten at the Trident was a knight. Peasant levies would not stand when the arrows fall like rain. His exact words, a seasoned warrior who has seen both in action.

There is an assumption in this thread they would fight like they did at Qhohor. They might not, especially under the command of others who know Westerosi weaknesses.

Someone like Barristan knows Westerosi armies intimately and would use the Dothraki accordingly.

In the open field they could potentially cut Westerosi armies to pieces.

You assume they will charge and be cut down. They cold just as easily under a smart commander like Barristan wheel away and lead knights into ambush. Tire them, defeat them in detail using their mobility and mop up the rest.

Jorah did also say they could not defeat the meanest castle. They have no siegecraft.

They are a warrior culture and all proficient with arms. Added to mobility they are a deadly threat if used correctly.

The Dothraki  in numbers as long as they were under a commander who understood their limitations but also knew Westerosi warfare like a Jorah or a Barristan they could whittle down, outmaneuvre and crush the armies of Westeros in the field.

They live their lives in the saddle. All can fight. Can you imagine the slaughter if they came upon a westerosi army in camp unprepared?

Robert had it right. Hide in your castles.

 

 

And hide in their castles they will. This isn't one realm led by a brash, drunk and angry Robert Baratheon. These are now fractured kingdoms who may be hunkering down for winter by the time the Dothraki arrive. 

The damage done to the Riverlands and Stormlands has been significant. During the WotFK food and shelter seems to be scare to the natives. An invading force would arguably have less of both.

[WeesesDog]

13 hours ago, YungWolf said:

And hide in their castles they will. This isn't one realm led by a brash, drunk and angry Robert Baratheon. These are now fractured kingdoms who may be hunkering down for winter by the time the Dothraki arrive. 

The damage done to the Riverlands and Stormlands has been significant. During the WotFK food and shelter seems to be scare to the natives. An invading force would arguably have less of both.

 A decent point. If winter has set in the Dothraki can't pillage what isn't there.

Roberts scenario of lords hunkering in castles and smallfolk abandoning an absentee king as the Dothraki run roughshod over Westeros might no longer apply.

However others with Dany do have knowledge of siege craft. Barristan, Tyrion etc.

Tyrion is no fool. The Dothraki won't just sit and starve, they are useless in sieges. If not confronted they will loot, pillage and take everything.

A starving Khalasar landing in Westeros is a pretty terrifying thought. If the lords are hunkered in castles they would pick the land clean and wholesale slaughter the smallfolk carrying off any livestock or speck of grain to survive. It would be like the brave companions x 10000.

 

[James West]

How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

As well as Robert Baratheon feared.  The Dothraki would force the Lords to run to the security of their castles.  Their walls will buy them some time until the Unsullied comes.  Then it's game over for the Lords and their peasant armies. 

[Aldarion]

Realistically?

If Westerosi hunker down in castles, the Unsullied and the Dothraki will starve in the countryside that had been long picked clean of anything edible. Castles exist to protect not just the lords but the general population as well, and they did that quite well. And if the Unsullied and the Dothraki stay, hithertho unfortified towns and villages will start springing up fortifications - this may not be enough to defend against outright attack, but it will prevent the Dothraki and Unsullied from feeding themselves. Mongols were far more dangerous than the Unsullied and Dothraki combined - among other things, they knew siegecraft, and also had weapons and armor that were outright superior to what was available in Europe at the time - yet they were still ultimately defeated once they reached countries that had something distantly resembling Western European defensive castle doctrine.

There is some good reading on Mongol invasion of Hungary on the blog below; it might help you understand what I'm talking about:

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-1-overview-of-the-invasion/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/12/09/mongol-siege-of-klis-fortress/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/12/16/how-mongol-invasion-shaped-hungarys-defense-strategy/

And Westerosi castles make European castles of the time look like toys. There is no way Unsullied and Dothraki are winning this unless they pull some BS out of the bag, like fully-grown dragons or advanced (15th+ century) gunpowder artillery.

If Westerosi choose to come out and fight in the field, they still win. In fact, Westerosi armies are perfectly structured to defeat the Unsullied + Dothraki army. Unsullied cannot compete with Westerosi pikemen: Unsullied are spearmen, and even if they gain Westerosi armor (which would be far superior to whatever they would be able to acquire in Essos), you cannot simply retrain them as pikemen. They would have to use spears, which would make them extremely vulnerable to both Westerosi pike formations as well as Westerosi heavy cavalry charge. Properly employed heavy cavalry can defeat even pike blocks, although that takes a lot of skill; spear-and-shield phalanx will stand no chance against the heavy lancers.

Dothraki meanwhile are light missile cavalry - and unlike the Mongols, they have no cataphracts. Light missile cavalry is all they have, all they are. It will be ridiculously easy for the Westerosi to simply screen their cavalry and heavy infantry with longbowmen and crossbowmen, and deny Dothraki ability to do anything other than raid and pillage the (largely emptied) countryside.

I wrote more about it here:

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/03/11/tactical-overview-the-unsullied/

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/clash-of-empires-daenerys-vs-westeros-conventional-forces/

Overall, they lose, and they lose hard.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:38 PM, Aldarion said:

Realistically?

If Westerosi hunker down in castles, the Unsullied and the Dothraki will starve in the countryside that had been long picked clean of anything edible. Castles exist to protect not just the lords but the general population as well, and they did that quite well. And if the Unsullied and the Dothraki stay, hithertho unfortified towns and villages will start springing up fortifications - this may not be enough to defend against outright attack, but it will prevent the Dothraki and Unsullied from feeding themselves. Mongols were far more dangerous than the Unsullied and Dothraki combined - among other things, they knew siegecraft, and also had weapons and armor that were outright superior to what was available in Europe at the time - yet they were still ultimately defeated once they reached countries that had something distantly resembling Western European defensive castle doctrine.

There is some good reading on Mongol invasion of Hungary on the blog below; it might help you understand what I'm talking about:

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/11/18/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-1-overview-of-the-invasion/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/12/09/mongol-siege-of-klis-fortress/

https://historyandwarfare.wordpress.com/2021/12/16/how-mongol-invasion-shaped-hungarys-defense-strategy/

And Westerosi castles make European castles of the time look like toys. There is no way Unsullied and Dothraki are winning this unless they pull some BS out of the bag, like fully-grown dragons or advanced (15th+ century) gunpowder artillery.

If Westerosi choose to come out and fight in the field, they still win. In fact, Westerosi armies are perfectly structured to defeat the Unsullied + Dothraki army. Unsullied cannot compete with Westerosi pikemen: Unsullied are spearmen, and even if they gain Westerosi armor (which would be far superior to whatever they would be able to acquire in Essos), you cannot simply retrain them as pikemen. They would have to use spears, which would make them extremely vulnerable to both Westerosi pike formations as well as Westerosi heavy cavalry charge. Properly employed heavy cavalry can defeat even pike blocks, although that takes a lot of skill; spear-and-shield phalanx will stand no chance against the heavy lancers.

Dothraki meanwhile are light missile cavalry - and unlike the Mongols, they have no cataphracts. Light missile cavalry is all they have, all they are. It will be ridiculously easy for the Westerosi to simply screen their cavalry and heavy infantry with longbowmen and crossbowmen, and deny Dothraki ability to do anything other than raid and pillage the (largely emptied) countryside.

I wrote more about it here:

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/03/11/tactical-overview-the-unsullied/

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/08/01/tactical-overview-dothraki/

https://militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/clash-of-empires-daenerys-vs-westeros-conventional-forces/

Overall, they lose, and they lose hard.

Thanks a lot for these links. 

Honestly I have always been annoyed and bothered by the overhype of the Unsullied and the Dothraki, who are too lightly armed and armored and too specialized to be effective against true westerosi armies and castles.  

Not counting the terrible effects of winter that they will surely suffer from upon arriving to Westeros. 

[Aldarion]

19 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Thanks a lot for these links. 

Honestly I have always been annoyed and bothered by the overhype of the Unsullied and the Dothraki, who are too lightly armed and armored and too specialized to be effective against true westerosi armies and castles.  

Not counting the terrible effects of winter that they will surely suffer from upon arriving to Westeros. 

I think that overhype comes from either personal biases or misunderstanding of history (hence the links; another good blog is ACOUP by Bret Deveraux). Personal bias thing comes down to emulating Jorah Mormont: Daenerys has the Unsullied and the Dothraki, and she is the heroine, hence these troops must be best of the best and will roll over the Westerosi armies. Which is bullshit.

Second issue is little more complex. Basically, there is that idea that Mongols were merely bow-and-arrow light cavalry. Logic thus goes, if Mongols were mounted archers, and they conquered most of the known world with extremely small numbers, then mounted archers must be overpowered. And Dothraki are mounted archers, hence Dothraki must be overpowered.

Except... that doesn't work if one knows any history at all. Huns were mounted archers, and they were stopped by ancient Roman infantry (and a lot of barbarians, but these were infantry as well). Mongols were nomadic horsemen for millenia, yet their conquests depended on Chinese infantry, Chinese combat engineers, Chinese... you get the idea. And both Huns and Mongols also had heavy cavalry in significant numbers, even though mounted archers were the mainstay of their armies.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Aldarion said:

I think that overhype comes from either personal biases or misunderstanding of history (hence the links; another good blog is ACOUP by Bret Deveraux). Personal bias thing comes down to emulating Jorah Mormont: Daenerys has the Unsullied and the Dothraki, and she is the heroine, hence these troops must be best of the best and will roll over the Westerosi armies. Which is bullshit.

Second issue is little more complex. Basically, there is that idea that Mongols were merely bow-and-arrow light cavalry. Logic thus goes, if Mongols were mounted archers, and they conquered most of the known world with extremely small numbers, then mounted archers must be overpowered. And Dothraki are mounted archers, hence Dothraki must be overpowered.

Except... that doesn't work if one knows any history at all. Huns were mounted archers, and they were stopped by ancient Roman infantry (and a lot of barbarians, but these were infantry as well). Mongols were nomadic horsemen for millenia, yet their conquests depended on Chinese infantry, Chinese combat engineers, Chinese... you get the idea. And both Huns and Mongols also had heavy cavalry in significant numbers, even though mounted archers were the mainstay of their armies.

Sure, but it won’t just be Dothraki and Unsullied who arrive.  There’ll be professional heavy horse, like the Windblown, spearmen from Volantis, archers from the Summer Isles, and engineers from the Free Cities.  And a lot of Westeros’ best soldiers will be dead.

Horse archers combine with heavy cavalry and infantry who know their business will be hard to beat.

[Aldarion]

58 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sure, but it won’t just be Dothraki and Unsullied who arrive.  There’ll be professional heavy horse, like the Windblown, spearmen from Volantis, archers from the Summer Isles, and engineers from the Free Cities.  And a lot of Westeros’ best soldiers will be dead.

Horse archers combine with heavy cavalry and infantry who know their business will be hard to beat.

True, but that assumes she will be able to forge them into the collective whole. And Essosi warfighting capabilities in general are not very impressive: best mercenary companies seem to be based largely on Westerosi model (in fact, Free Cities largely rely on actual Westerosi mercenaries, IIRC).

Volantis may have good army, but how good is questionable as we have seen basically nothing of them just yet.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:36 AM, James West said:

How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

As well as Robert Baratheon feared.  The Dothraki would force the Lords to run to the security of their castles.  Their walls will buy them some time until the Unsullied comes.  Then it's game over for the Lords and their peasant armies. 

Pretty much the way Robert described.  He's not a guy who frightens easy and the fact that he was scared should tell us something.  The ruling class will be too terrified to leave the safety of their castles until all the rats have been eaten, hunger becomes too unbearable and then they will open their gates and the Dothraki screamers will kill those who still refuse to bend the knee.  It's not a lot because there will be very, very few people who will be that stubborn. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Pretty much the way Robert described.  He's not a guy who frightens easy and the fact that he was scared should tell us something.  The ruling class will be too terrified to leave the safety of their castles until all the rats have been eaten, hunger becomes too unbearable and then they will open their gates and the Dothraki screamers will kill those who still refuse to bend the knee.  It's not a lot because there will be very, very few people who will be that stubborn. 

Well, whoever is commanding had better use them in a smarter way than slamming them into a wall. Walls don't buckle for morale, and neither do wights.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sure, but it won’t just be Dothraki and Unsullied who arrive.  There’ll be professional heavy horse, like the Windblown, spearmen from Volantis, archers from the Summer Isles, and engineers from the Free Cities.  And a lot of Westeros’ best soldiers will be dead.

Horse archers combine with heavy cavalry and infantry who know their business will be hard to beat.

Daenerys surely will have sellswords and other mercenaries with her, though why do you expect her to have spearmen from Volantis or archers from the Summer Isles ? 

[BlackLightning]

I'm pretty sure Daenerys will be brining more than just the Unsullied and the Dothraki to Westeros. This isn't the TV show.

She'll probably bring a few sellsword companies yes but she also has legions of slaves-turned-soldiers loyal to her. Everyone forgets about the Mother's Men, the Stalwart Shields and the Free Brothers.

I also tend to think she'll be bringing the Fiery Hand with her and they seem like a big deal.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Daenerys surely will have sellswords and other mercenaries with her, though why do you expect her to have spearmen from Volantis or archers from the Summer Isles ? 

The Tiger Soldiers of Volantis are on the point of revolt, and the Summer Isles have the best archers for hire.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

44 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm pretty sure Daenerys will be brining more than just the Unsullied and the Dothraki to Westeros. This isn't the TV show.

She'll probably bring a few sellsword companies yes but she also has legions of slaves-turned-soldiers loyal to her. Everyone forgets about the Mother's Men, the Stalwart Shields and the Free Brothers.

I also tend to think she'll be bringing the Fiery Hand with her and they seem like a big deal.

I dont think she will have those people with her, they will most likely revolt and break they're chains but I dont believe that they will joins her. Mainly because if that is the case then she would virtually control Volantis and its lands, adding to Slaver's bay. And I dont thinl that giving Daenerys a Empire so she can conquer Westeros is really that good a idea, she would just be completely over powered, having the only Dragons in the world in addition to almost half of Essos behind her is a bit much.

But if she ends up having access to those troops then she migth have a chance to take the Iron Throne, because neither the Unsullied or Dothraki's will be good enougth.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Tiger Soldiers of Volantis are on the point of revolt, and the Summer Isles have the best archers for hire.

That will depends of how much gold and silver she'll have upon departing for Meereen and of which places she will go before her return to Westeros.

Volantis is most certainely going to be a stop, but it's less sure for the Summer Isles.

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

That will depends of how much gold and silver she'll have upon departing for Meereen and of which places she will go before her return to Westeros.

Volantis is most certainely going to be a stop, but it's less sure for the Summer Isles.

I don’t see her stopping at the Summer Isles, but I would see her sending people to hire mercenaries.

I expect the Ghiscari masters and the Old Blood will be thoroughly looted.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm pretty sure Daenerys will be brining more than just the Unsullied and the Dothraki to Westeros. This isn't the TV show.

She'll probably bring a few sellsword companies yes but she also has legions of slaves-turned-soldiers loyal to her. Everyone forgets about the Mother's Men, the Stalwart Shields and the Free Brothers.

I also tend to think she'll be bringing the Fiery Hand with her and they seem like a big deal.

Those slaves turned soldiers will surely count too, however we cannot be sure about their quality as soldiers since having not been properly trained for war and their equipement may be light similarly to the Unsullied and Dothraki. 

Aside from Sellswords it looks like Daenerys will still lack heavy infantry and cavalry. 

[astarkchoice]

Id say if  well led they do just fine. Logistics may be hard but then again we've little idea how westeros survives years of nonstop winter anyway! Feeding her force will be hard so dany has that issue but given the unsullieds marching stamina and dothraki being all mounted her force has serious mobility advantage.

Vs castles we know in the century of blood the dothraki raised walled cities of pretty much every culture to ruins and will have engaged westerosi style knights in the form of sellsword companies for centuries as will the unsullied. We must bear in mind many sieges were actualy resolved in real life with negotiation , starvation or simply  betrayal from someone inside looking to get rich.

Head on dothraki vs knights will be slaughtered in a charge or fixed place melee however if they turn it into fluid battle of manuver , having the knights chase them to be flanked, horses shot out , outnumbered piecemeal  etc then it becomes anyones fight . The standard westerosi pikemen, spearmen and other foot will struggle with arrows and the speed/manuverability of these horsemen but if kept in squares etc with their own archers well protected with pike then it is again anyones fight to win.

The unsullied  we know are trained to stupidly wasteful extremes. We can expect the adverage westerosi knight or troop to be a full time professional and individualy stronger  and better armoured than the enuchs HOWEVER the unsullied are pushed to almost unreal levels thus we can expect them to be on adverage both individualy more skilled than their westerosi counterparts and  drilled in units to a wayy higher degree thus probably  look like they move as one giant coordinated living organism pushing and finding necks or faces etc  in enemy shieldwalls for stabs. Stamina probably way  better too and we know like robots they wont break! Against pike head on their spears will be too short  but they can flank to take advantage of the spears advantages over pike at close range.

Vs knights charge  a spearwall isnt as good as a pikewall but will hold , we can assume they can form up into one lighting fast after a lifetime of nothing but drilling ! Or shieldwalls vs arrows. 

[Ring3r]

Speaking from a military tactics POV, it's not an accident by GRRM that Dany has gained herself a group of disciplined pikemen (Unsullied), a small number of fully armored Knights, and a group of fast mounted cavalry.

Those are three of the four necessary types of soldiers that are key to medieval warfare.  At this point the only thing missing from her army is longer-range archers.  The dothraki bows don't have any real range.  Her dragons could fill in for that but they strike me more as overpowered siege engines.

Where's she going to get archers?  She'll need them.