How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:31 PM, WeesesDog said:

Ser Jorah did not believe Westerosi would perform well against Dothraki.

He said a Dothraki ride as well as any knight and only one man in ten at the Trident was a knight. Peasant levies would not stand when the arrows fall like rain. His exact words, a seasoned warrior who has seen both in action.

There is an assumption in this thread they would fight like they did at Qhohor. They might not, especially under the command of others who know Westerosi weaknesses.

Someone like Barristan knows Westerosi armies intimately and would use the Dothraki accordingly.

In the open field they could potentially cut Westerosi armies to pieces.

You assume they will charge and be cut down. They cold just as easily under a smart commander like Barristan wheel away and lead knights into ambush. Tire them, defeat them in detail using their mobility and mop up the rest.

Jorah did also say they could not defeat the meanest castle. They have no siegecraft.

They are a warrior culture and all proficient with arms. Added to mobility they are a deadly threat if used correctly.

The Dothraki  in numbers as long as they were under a commander who understood their limitations but also knew Westerosi warfare like a Jorah or a Barristan they could whittle down, outmaneuvre and crush the armies of Westeros in the field.

They live their lives in the saddle. All can fight. Can you imagine the slaughter if they came upon a westerosi army in camp unprepared?

Robert had it right. Hide in your castles.

 

 

The only option available to the men of Westeros is to hide in their castles.  They have no chance against the Dothraki in battle.  

Robert, a seasoned man of war and accounted a good general, feared the Dothraki.  I would trust his evaluation rather than that of Anti-Dothraki forum member who are desperate to invent a scenario in which Dany's forces would lose. Dragging world history in an attempt to argue what will happen inside the story is not convincing in the least.  

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The only option available to the men of Westeros is to hide in their castles.  They have no chance against the Dothraki in battle.  

Robert, a seasoned man of war and accounted a good general, feared the Dothraki.  I would trust his evaluation rather than that of a desperate Anti-Dothraki forum member who are even more desperate to invent a scenario in which Dany's forces would lose. Dragging world history in an attempt to argue what will happen inside the story is not convincing in the least.  

I thought there was a big discussion on why the Dothraki weren't as good as Jorah said they would be. And I think the Knights at least do have more than a chance against Dothraki in battle. Also if they do hide in their castles with ample provisions, what can the Dothraki do about it? It's winter, they won't have much food or fodder for their horses. They may well starve if they try to siege anything.

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The only option available to the men of Westeros is to hide in their castles.  They have no chance against the Dothraki in battle.  

Robert, a seasoned man of war and accounted a good general, feared the Dothraki.  I would trust his evaluation rather than that of a desperate Anti-Dothraki forum member who are even more desperate to invent a scenario in which Dany's forces would lose. Dragging world history in an attempt to argue what will happen inside the story is not convincing in the least.  

He didn't "fear the Dothraki". He feared Targaryen loyalists rising up because his rule was still very much insecure and half the Westeros was just waiting for him to show any weakness to stab him in the back.

[The Dragon-Emperor]

I agree

[Craving Peaches]

I think realistically both the Dothraki and Unsullied (unless they were used in a very specific way) wouldn't perform very well at all, since it's idiot Mongol knock offs with none of the Mongols' advantages and strategy plus bronze age slave soldiers vs late medieval knights and infantry, but given the direction the story seems to be going I imagine they will see some success. But it would be hilarious if Daenerys landed and then what she thought were her elite troops were slaughtered in battle really quickly, forcing her to rely on dragons and sellswords.

[Ring3r]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think realistically both the Dothraki and Unsullied (unless they were used in a very specific way) wouldn't perform very well at all, since it's idiot Mongol knock offs with none of the Mongols' advantages and strategy plus bronze age slave soldiers vs late medieval knights and infantry, but given the direction the story seems to be going I imaging they will see some success. But it would be hilarious if Daenerys landed and then what she thought were her elite troops were slaughtered in battle really quickly, forcing her to rely on dragons and sellswords.

I don't know.  The Unsullied are a pretty clear echo of the Spartans, just with some GRRM castration thrown in for rocky-mountain flavor.  Pretty sure they really are excellent soldiers.  That's my read, anyways.

Pretty sure the Dothraki are also excellent at what they do too.  They control like....1/5th of the continent and nobody even tries to fight them, they just give them stuff to go away.  They're the best raiders in the world.  If Dany uses them as raiders, I think they'll be very successful.  If she tries to put them up against a prepared, armored force, obviously they'll be trash, but Tyrion is not going to let her do that.....

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

I don't know.  The Unsullied are a pretty clear echo of the Spartans, just with some GRRM castration thrown in for rocky-mountain flavor.  Pretty sure they really are excellent soldiers.  That's my read, anyways.

I don't think they're bad soldiers but all their training seems to have been in bronze age equipment and tactics. They seem outdated compared to the rest of Westeros.

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

Pretty sure the Dothraki are also excellent at what they do too.  They control like....1/5th of the continent and nobody even tries to fight them, they just give them stuff to go away.  They're the best raiders in the world.  If Dany uses them as raiders, I think they'll be very successful.  If she tries to put them up against a prepared, armored force, obviously they'll be trash, but Tyrion is not going to let her do that.....

If they're just being used as raiders I agree. I think they are completely unsuitable for anything else though.

[Only 89 selfies today]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought there was a big discussion on why the Dothraki weren't as good as Jorah said they would be. And I think the Knights at least do have more than a chance against Dothraki in battle. Also if they do hide in their castles with ample provisions, what can the Dothraki do about it? It's winter, they won't have much food or fodder for their horses. They may well starve if they try to siege anything.

The army outside the walls have access to supplies.  Supplies which will be brought in from Essos.  The army inside the castles will be eating rat stew.  And then their own dead.  The armies in Westeros are composed of mostly non-professionals.  Just look at what happened in the north with Stannis and his soldiers who turned to cannibalism.  That is what will happen behind those walls.  It will happen on a larger scale and the lord of the castle will have a rebellion.  

The siege will not take place if Westeros is already covered in ice and darkness.  There is no point to engage the armies of Westeros in such a case.  Just let the cold, starvation, and the wights do the job of ridding the land of Dany's enemies.  In a case where it is already dark and ice covers the land, the people in Westeros will not be interested in putting up a resistance.  They will be too weak.  

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The army outside the walls have access to supplies.  Supplies which will be brought in from Essos.

What supplies? Big food shortage in Meereen. They need not only food but fodder for the horses. Even if they manage to bring some it won't last forever. And they have a severely restricted ability to restock in Westeros.

11 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The army inside the castles will be eating rat stew.  And then their own dead. 

Not if they have a storage of food they won't.

20 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The armies in Westeros are composed of mostly non-professionals.  Just look at what happened in the north with Stannis and his soldiers who turned to cannibalism.

Knights are professionals. Also Stannis' food supply is a result of him trekking for ages through winter conditions and not being able to find fodder - exactly the sort of scenario the Dothraki could face. He is not behind the walls of a well provisioned castle.

22 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

That is what will happen behind those walls.  It will happen on a larger scale and the lord of the castle will have a rebellion.  

It would only happen if the castle had no food supplies. Even then the castlefolk might choose death rather than surrendering to the Dothraki.

23 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The siege will not take place if Westeros is already covered in ice and darkness.  There is no point to engage the armies of Westeros in such a case.  Just let the cold, starvation, and the wights do the job of ridding the land of Dany's enemies.  In a case where it is already dark and ice covers the land, the people in Westeros will not be interested in putting up a resistance.  They will be too weak.

If those conditions occurre Daenerys' soldiers will be dropping like flies as well. They aren't magically immune.

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I don't know.  The Unsullied are a pretty clear echo of the Spartans, just with some GRRM castration thrown in for rocky-mountain flavor.  Pretty sure they really are excellent soldiers.  That's my read, anyways.

 

Spartans were terrible soldiers. Well, OK, they did a-OK in very specific conditions of Ancient Greece where they were literally the only professional soldiers around... yet despite that, they couldn't even break even in win-loss ratio against other Greek hoplite armies which were, if you recall, levies.

But once Spartiates went up against anything even slightly more competent than average hoplite levy - say, a Theban or Macedonian phalanx, or Athenian sailors armed with javelins - they were quickly slaughtered.

Any early medieval army would slaughter Spartiates with one hand tied behind its back.

4 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Pretty sure the Dothraki are also excellent at what they do too.  They control like....1/5th of the continent and nobody even tries to fight them, they just give them stuff to go away.  They're the best raiders in the world.  If Dany uses them as raiders, I think they'll be very successful.  If she tries to put them up against a prepared, armored force, obviously they'll be trash, but Tyrion is not going to let her do that.....

Roman Empire bought off barbarians on a regular basis. It is simply good strategy: even if your opponent is weak, buying them off is usually cheaper than raising an army.

Fact that these cities are buying Dothraki off tells us absolutely nothing about how dangerous Dothraki are. It simply tells us that mercantile cities prefer not to fight expensive wars, which is a financially sound approach, even if security would be better served by giving the Dothraki a bloody nose once in a while.

2 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The army outside the walls have access to supplies.  Supplies which will be brought in from Essos.  The army inside the castles will be eating rat stew.  And then their own dead.  The armies in Westeros are composed of mostly non-professionals.  Just look at what happened in the north with Stannis and his soldiers who turned to cannibalism.  That is what will happen behind those walls.  It will happen on a larger scale and the lord of the castle will have a rebellion.  

The siege will not take place if Westeros is already covered in ice and darkness.  There is no point to engage the armies of Westeros in such a case.  Just let the cold, starvation, and the wights do the job of ridding the land of Dany's enemies.  In a case where it is already dark and ice covers the land, the people in Westeros will not be interested in putting up a resistance.  They will be too weak.  

Can you show me Daenerys' fleet of Conveyor ships? Transporting supplies is not easy, even with ships - and keep in mind that if it is the Long Night, then even Essos will have issues with food supply. How much food will there be for Daenerys? She already is having food issues in Meereen. Meanwhile, Westerosi castles have massive food stores, although it is questionable how much food they were actually able to stock up. Stannis is in situation that Daenerys' army will be in, not the defending Westerosi armies.

Armies in Westeros are hell lot more professional than most armies in Essos. They are comprised of professionals, have logistical organization of professional armies, display ability to carry out tactical maneuvers... in a field clash, Westerosi will win.

But yes, if winter kills literally everybody, then Daenerys will be able to easily conquer the continent.

[Loose Bolt]

Actually what makes Dothraki dangerous to their enemies is their ability to respawn their hordes. Or they could lose 99,99 % of their screamers and horses in Kamikaze attack but just couple moons later their horde will be again ready for battle. At least in TV serie.

[Moiraine Sedai]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think they're bad soldiers but all their training seems to have been in bronze age equipment and tactics. They seem outdated compared to the rest of Westeros.

If they're just being used as raiders I agree. I think they are completely unsuitable for anything else though.

Historical records have proven the effectiveness of The Unsullied method of combat. The strength of Valyria were strained to defeat the armies of Ghis. It took many tries. The Unsullied are trained as the armies of Ghis and are likely much better. Compare this to the relative ease by which the Targaryens conquered Westeros.  Only three dragons and a very small, recruited army, they conquered Westeros. The Targaryens had very little combat experience. Their troops had little to none. Yet they were successful. Because the recruits of Westeros are not real fighting men. They are what we would call weekend, part time soldiers. 
 

The Unsullied are superior to the Dothraki. But it doesn’t mean the khalasars are not effective. They have fought sell swords too. They are the dominant force in Essos.  They will win against an equal number of what the lords in Westeros could take to battle. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Moiraine Sedai said:

Historical records have proven the effectiveness of The Unsullied method of combat. The strength of Valyria were strained to defeat the armies of Ghis. It took many tries.

The lockstep legions were free men, not castrated slave soldiers. And again that was thousands of years ago. The Unsullied's equipment and strategy are outdated.

2 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Only three dragons and a very small, recruited army, they conquered Westeros. The Targaryens had very little combat experience. Their troops had little to none. Yet they were successful.

They won because of the dragons. All the battles in the conquest seem to amount to: the Targaryen's smaller army was losing to a larger army - then the dragons showed up. At least that's the impression I got from Fire and Blood.

3 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens had very little combat experience. Their troops had little to none. Yet they were successful. Because the recruits of Westeros are not real fighting men. They are what we would call weekend, part time soldiers. 

Their success is based on dragons.

4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Because the recruits of Westeros are not real fighting men. They are what we would call weekend, part time soldiers. 

Knights aren't.

[SeanF]

When Dany arrives she’ll have allies among the nobility.  Simply because, there’ll be plenty of plenty of men with military experience who have lost out, whether against Aegon/Arianne or Euron, or whoever else is on top at the time.  My enemy’s enemy is my friend.  

So, there will be plenty of local knights and soldiers in her ranks, as well as the Unsullied, Dothraki, sellswords, tiger soldiers, and the Iron Fleet. 

Supplies will be an issue, as winter bites, but just as much for her opponents as for her.

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:41 PM, SeanF said:

When Dany arrives she’ll have allies among the nobility.  Simply because, there’ll be plenty of plenty of men with military experience who have lost out, whether against Aegon/Arianne or Euron, or whoever else is on top at the time.  My enemy’s enemy is my friend.  

So, there will be plenty of local knights and soldiers in her ranks, as well as the Unsullied, Dothraki, sellswords, tiger soldiers, and the Iron Fleet. 

Supplies will be an issue, as winter bites, but just as much for her opponents as for her.

Dany and her armies will have the ability to bring supplies from outside the boundaries of Westeros. She will have control of the coasts and the seas. Fishing, produce from the east, and weaponsmiths will provide needed supplies. Those hiding inside their castles will have to become cannibals in a matter of weeks. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Darth Sidious said:

Dany and her armies will have the ability to bring supplies from outside the boundaries of Westeros.

What supplies will she be bringing and from where? There is a big food shortage in Meereen.

Just now, Darth Sidious said:

Those hiding inside their castles will have to become cannibals in a matter of weeks. 

Not if their castle's well provisioned they won't.

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Dany and her armies will have the ability to bring supplies from outside the boundaries of Westeros. She will have control of the coasts and the seas. Fishing, produce from the east, and weaponsmiths will provide needed supplies. Those hiding inside their castles will have to become cannibals in a matter of weeks. 

You can’t easily transport supplies across vast distances.  Meereen is 3,000 miles from the closest part of Westeros.

The best-organised pre-industrial states in the West, the Eastern Empire and the  Ottomans, strained every nerve to send 20,000 men across 1,000 miles of sea, to Carthage and Malta, respectively.

Dany won’t be bringing overwhelming military force to Westeros.  She will need allies.

[BlackLightning]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You can’t easily transport supplies across vast distances.  Meereen is 3,000 miles from the closest part of Westeros.

The best-organised pre-industrial states in the West, the Eastern Empire and the  Ottomans, strained every nerve to send 20,000 men across 1,000 miles of sea, to Carthage and Malta, respectively.

Dany won’t be bringing overwhelming military force to Westeros.  She will need allies.

I do think Dany will be bringing overwhelming military force to Westeros. But I also think she will be bringing a bunch of food and supplies as well. Probably not from Meereen but from places like Pentos, Tyrosh, Lys, Volantis...maybe even Braavos.

I think she will definitely have allies. Not many. I think that initially more people will be so horrified of her that they will not bestir themselves to send envoys and make alliances with her.

On 10/5/2022 at 7:56 AM, Aldarion said:

She already is having food issues in Meereen.

The food issues that she is experiencing in Meereen are very different from the food issues that she might experience in Westeros.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I do think Dany will be bringing overwhelming military force to Westeros. But I also think she will be bringing a bunch of food and supplies as well. Probably not from Meereen but from places like Pentos, Tyrosh, Lys, Volantis...maybe even Braavos.

I think she will definitely have allies. Not many. I think that initially more people will be so horrified of her that they will not bestir themselves to send envoys and make alliances with her.

The food issues that she is experiencing in Meereen are very different from the food issues that she might experience in Westeros.

She's gotta get there first, what with being stuck in the middle of the Dothraki Sea and suffering from whatever's ailing her digestive tract.

[Ring3r]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:56 AM, Aldarion said:

Spartans were terrible soldiers. Well, OK, they did a-OK in very specific conditions of Ancient Greece where they were literally the only professional soldiers around... yet despite that, they couldn't even break even in win-loss ratio against other Greek hoplite armies which were, if you recall, levies.

But once Spartiates went up against anything even slightly more competent than average hoplite levy - say, a Theban or Macedonian phalanx, or Athenian sailors armed with javelins - they were quickly slaughtered.

Any early medieval army would slaughter Spartiates with one hand tied behind its back.

Roman Empire bought off barbarians on a regular basis. It is simply good strategy: even if your opponent is weak, buying them off is usually cheaper than raising an army.

Fact that these cities are buying Dothraki off tells us absolutely nothing about how dangerous Dothraki are. It simply tells us that mercantile cities prefer not to fight expensive wars, which is a financially sound approach, even if security would be better served by giving the Dothraki a bloody nose once in a while.

Can you show me Daenerys' fleet of Conveyor ships? Transporting supplies is not easy, even with ships - and keep in mind that if it is the Long Night, then even Essos will have issues with food supply. How much food will there be for Daenerys? She already is having food issues in Meereen. Meanwhile, Westerosi castles have massive food stores, although it is questionable how much food they were actually able to stock up. Stannis is in situation that Daenerys' army will be in, not the defending Westerosi armies.

Armies in Westeros are hell lot more professional than most armies in Essos. They are comprised of professionals, have logistical organization of professional armies, display ability to carry out tactical maneuvers... in a field clash, Westerosi will win.

But yes, if winter kills literally everybody, then Daenerys will be able to easily conquer the continent.

Fair points, actually, although it's probably not entirely fair to pit military units from different time periods against each other.  And I think you're probably right, the Unsullied are really less like Spartans and more like...just a well trained infantry unit.

I think a fair modern comparison to what the Unsullied are is probably not the Tier-1 type operator (DEVGRU, SAS, DELTA, etc.) They're really more like a modern specifically-trained infantry force.  I can only speak from my own experience, but something like Rangers, or Marine Force Recon.  They do still depend on numbers, but they HAVE to have fire-support (that would be close air support, artillery, etc, which can offset numbers and give stand-off to allow the ground force to maneuver, break contact, re-engage, etc.)

But....Dany has that.  She has dragons.  Close air support and artillery.  She's also got fast, maneuverable light-mounted troops (Dothraki), and she's likely going to have several Houses with trained regular soldiers come to her cause once she makes land-fall.

I still think all she's really missing is a really good long-range tool that doesn't involve her dragons.  Longbows, or the Planetos equivalent.  At range, long-bows could devastate lightly armored groups of soldiers, and within 40m or so, a powerful long bow could defeat some plate armors.  And then there's the part that nobody likes to talk about because it's icky: the bowmen are not usually shooting at the rider; they're shooting the horses out from under them, and then somebody on the ground lifts up their visor and goes stabby-stab-stab into the Knight's face.

Used correctly, I think the Dothraki could be clutch.  Highly mobile....excellent at flanking unarmored or lightly armored conscripted soldiers.  That would dramatically effect overall movement and limit options for whomever they're fighting.  But they'd get annihilated if they went up against a group of fully armored opponents, particularly if they were supported by archers and pike-men, because they're all going to target the horses, and after that, it's just unarmored Dothraki on the ground, and Ser Jorah has demonstrated how well that plays out.