How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[Aldarion]

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Fair points, actually, although it's probably not entirely fair to pit military units from different time periods against each other.  And I think you're probably right, the Unsullied are really less like Spartans and more like...just a well trained infantry unit.

 

But pitting military units from different time periods is precisely what Martin is doing. The Unsullied are described acting like a Greek phalanx on few occasions we see them actually perform. Even in Westeros, we have bloody Vikings going up against 14th century Europe (and getting slaughtered, unsurprisingly).

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I think a fair modern comparison to what the Unsullied are is probably not the Tier-1 type operator (DEVGRU, SAS, DELTA, etc.) They're really more like a modern specifically-trained infantry force.  I can only speak from my own experience, but something like Rangers, or Marine Force Recon.  They do still depend on numbers, but they HAVE to have fire-support (that would be close air support, artillery, etc, which can offset numbers and give stand-off to allow the ground force to maneuver, break contact, re-engage, etc.)

 

No, they are not. Unsullied are trained to fight in a phalanx, and nothing more - we see the point being made specifically when Daenerys thinks she can use the Unsullied as a police force. And fact is, fighting in a phalanx does not require much training. So I see no reason to believe that the Unsullied have any sort of special training, much less anything approaching modern special forces' training - they 1) simply do not need it for the type of fighting they are intended for and 2) have shown no indication of possessing such training in any case.

And the battle which created the "Unsullied legend" shows absolutely no combined-arms operation or support on the part of the Unsullied.

Unsullied are based on the Spartans (I mean, legend of the 3 000 of Quohor should make it obvious). But if Martin knows his history (as opposed to pop-culture version of history), he will know that Spartans got their asses handed to them by Macedonian phalanx, which centuries later served as a model for combined-arms pike units. And he does seem to know his history, considering how Golden Company (which has major similarities with the Macedonian phalanx) sacked Qohor. And yes, they will have had to beat the Unsullied to do that: stand of 3 000 of Qohor happened ~100 BC, while Sack of Qohor was in 212 AC, meaning that Qohor had had its Unsullied for 300 years at that point.

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

But....Dany has that.  She has dragons.  Close air support and artillery.  She's also got fast, maneuverable light-mounted troops (Dothraki), and she's likely going to have several Houses with trained regular soldiers come to her cause once she makes land-fall.

 

The only thing here that is worth its weight are dragons. Dothraki type of warfare is basically what castles are meant to counter - and to be useful, Dothraki have to live off the land... which, if Daenerys lands in the middle of winter, will not be possible.

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Used correctly, I think the Dothraki could be clutch.  Highly mobile....excellent at flanking unarmored or lightly armored conscripted soldiers.  That would dramatically effect overall movement and limit options for whomever they're fighting.  But they'd get annihilated if they went up against a group of fully armored opponents, particularly if they were supported by archers and pike-men, because they're all going to target the horses, and after that, it's just unarmored Dothraki on the ground, and Ser Jorah has demonstrated how well that plays out.

 

Agreed. Dothraki would be best used going after the supply lines and raiding (chevauchee). But they would still be rather vulnerable, especially if Daenerys lands during winter.

[BlackLightning]

I think a lot of people in this thread are acting as if she is only going to show up in Westeros with Unsullied, Dothraki and dragons.

That's a show-only thing because the show didn't want to really adapt her story.

She is bringing more than Unsullied and Dothraki over to Westeros. The freedmen that she has fighting for her will basically be the equivalent of the peasant conscripts and levies...except that they will have greater resolve than the Westerosi smallfolk who are being enlisted by their liege.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I still think all she's really missing is a really good long-range tool that doesn't involve her dragons.  Longbows, or the Planetos equivalent.  At range, long-bows could devastate lightly armored groups of soldiers, and within 40m or so, a powerful long bow could defeat some plate armors.  And then there's the part that nobody likes to talk about because it's icky: the bowmen are not usually shooting at the rider; they're shooting the horses out from under them, and then somebody on the ground lifts up their visor and goes stabby-stab-stab into the Knight's face.

I think that's coming.

I am 98% certain that she is bringing over the Fiery Hand (magical, fire-bending ninjas from Volantis) and I think she will have Summer Islanders with her who all seem to utilize the Planetos equivalent of longbows. Maybe she'll be joined by warriors and conscripts from Yi Ti, Leng or Asshai.

 

7 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Agreed. Dothraki would be best used going after the supply lines and raiding (chevauchee). But they would still be rather vulnerable, especially if Daenerys lands during winter.

You do know that she can put the Dothraki (or a certain steelier, more seasoned fragment of the Dothraki) in armor and give them long sleeves to wear

Given her wealth, it will only be a matter of time. Not money or resources.

[Aldarion]

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

You do know that she can put the Dothraki (or a certain steelier, more seasoned fragment of the Dothraki) in armor and give them long sleeves to wear

 

That will not suddenly make them into heavy cavalry. Nor will it solve the whole "Westeros has castles" thing. Dothraki have neither the training nor mentality for that.

If Daenerys wants to make them useful she will have to literally break apart their entire culture. Does she have time to do that?

[BlackLightning]

11 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

If Daenerys wants to make them useful she will have to literally break apart their entire culture. Does she have time to do that?

Forget about making them useful.

If Daenerys wants them at all, she will have to literally break apart their entire culture. So, what difference does it make?

Does she have time to do that? Absolutely. GRRM wrote himself into a corner by the way he wrote A Dance with Dragons. The book should've ended with Dany uniting all of the Dothraki khalasars under her leadership and the end of the Battle of Meereen...among other things.

Now in The Winds of Winter he has to finish the story he failed to finish in A Dance with Dragons, tell the Winds of Winter story and setup the next (and presumably) final book. Every single character that survives this next book has to be positioned perfectly for the endgame. It can be done and there is time for it...it's just that The Winds of Winter is going to have to be very long and take place over a much more extended period of time than the previous books.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

That will not suddenly make them into heavy cavalry. Nor will it solve the whole "Westeros has castles" thing. Dothraki have neither the training nor mentality for that.

If Daenerys wants to make them useful she will have to literally break apart their entire culture. Does she have time to do that?

Giving them mail, or even armour of boiled leather, would hugely cut casualty rates (it’s absurd they don’t wear it in universe).

As light cavalry, they’ll be fine, raiding, cutting up enemy communications, and scouting.  The knights and sellswords will be the heavy cavalry.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

16 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

That will not suddenly make them into heavy cavalry. Nor will it solve the whole "Westeros has castles" thing. Dothraki have neither the training nor mentality for that.

If Daenerys wants to make them useful she will have to literally break apart their entire culture. Does she have time to do that?

I very much doubt she does have the time for that. 

And Dothraki aren't going to change their culture and warfare that easily and quickly either. 

[Aldarion]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Giving them mail, or even armour of boiled leather, would hugely cut casualty rates (it’s absurd they don’t wear it in universe).

As light cavalry, they’ll be fine, raiding, cutting up enemy communications, and scouting.  The knights and sellswords will be the heavy cavalry.

It will, but fact still remains that Dothraki style of warfare is literally what castles are designed to counter. Westeros is the worst area for the Dothraki to invade, it is literally a hard counter to Dothraki.

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

It will, but fact still remains that Dothraki style of warfare is literally what castles are designed to counter. Westeros is the worst area for the Dothraki to invade, it is literally a hard counter to Dothraki.

Nope the century of blood would disagree with you there.

 

Bear in mind we have 0  proof the dothraki cant make siege weapons and that many sieges are resolved by starvation, betrayal or simple negotiation

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

It will, but fact still remains that Dothraki style of warfare is literally what castles are designed to counter. Westeros is the worst area for the Dothraki to invade, it is literally a hard counter to Dothraki.

That depends upon the quality of the castle, the supplies available to the garrison, and whether the garrison is corruptible.

A castle like the Eyrie, for example, is poorly located.  It's impregnable, but it can't do what a castle is meant to do -dominate the countryside within half a day's ride. A small number of troops at the foot of the mountain that it's built on can just starve out the garrison.

In general, I'd expect Dany to bring siege engineers with her from Essos.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Bear in mind we have 0  proof the dothraki cant make siege weapons and that many sieges are resolved by starvation, betrayal or simple negotiation

I feel like if Dothraki had siege engines Daenerys would have mentioned it by now though. Also in order to starve out a castle the Dothraki themselves would need ample provisions as well, something than will be harder to come by with winter and the food shortage etc.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope the century of blood would disagree with you there.

But we don't know if they had Westeros style castles or not. Also there were other factors that contributed to the Dothraki success there.

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

That depends upon the quality of the castle, the supplies available to the garrison, and whether the garrison is corruptible.

A castle like the Eyrie, for example, is poorly located.  It's impregnable, but it can't do what a castle is meant to do -dominate the countryside within half a day's ride. A small number of troops at the foot of the mountain that it's built on can just starve out the garrison.

In general, I'd expect Dany to bring siege engineers with her from Essos.

Eh, yes and no. When it comes to Dothraki alone, even a mass of motte-and-bailey castles would significantly impede them - these are no Mongols. Problem of course is that Daenerys will have more than just Dothraki. Still, large number of large castles proved to be a major obstacle even against gunpowder-era armies far more competent than anything Daenerys will be bringing with them: Hungarian defensive strategy against the Ottomans consisted essentially of letting castles and fortified cities soak up Ottoman offensives during the summer, and then attacking during the winter to reverse any Ottoman gains. And it worked for a good hundred years, until cannon technology advanced enough that Hungarian fortifications - specifically Belgrade - could no longer stand up to Ottomans long enough.

As for Eyrie, as had been pointed out to me before, Eyrie is not the actual castle - it is just a citadel. Castle functions are carried out by the Gates of the Moon at the bottom of the mountain.

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope the century of blood would disagree with you there.

 

Bear in mind we have 0  proof the dothraki cant make siege weapons and that many sieges are resolved by starvation, betrayal or simple negotiation

No, it wouldn't. Century of Blood is a very bad example for potential events in Westeros.

First, that is Essos you are talking about, and their military capabilities are... less than impressive. And this includes fortifications as well as everything else.

Second, fortifications are useless without an army to defend them, and Sarnori had destroyed their own armies in internecine warfare long before Dothraki came - in fact, they had utilized Dothraki to help them in their wars. Which I guess does hold true for some areas of Westeros - but the Reach is largely intact, as is Dorne, and Riverlands never had a chance to fully mobilize and thus likely still have significant number of troops available, much like the North does. And seeing how most of lords of the Stormlands switched sides, multiple times in some cases, it is likely that most of Stormlands' strength is largely intact as well. In fact, only kingdoms that should be really depleted are the Westerlands and the Crownlands.

Third, Sarnori were a Bronze Age civilization, utilizing undisciplined light infantry as a support for chariots. Chariots are automatically inferior to any kind of cavalry, and light infantry is not good at standing up to horse archers. Despite that, Dothraki were actually losing the battle and were only saved by a lucky happenstance: one or two khals had died, and Dothraki started breaking in the center, which then led to Sarnori breaking formation and chasing after the broken Dothraki. This in turn led to them being encircled and destroyed by Dothraki flanks. So to recap: Dothraki were losing against a completely undisciplined Bronze Age army and only managed to win when they got victory literally handed to them on a silver platter. And when you look at numbers - 80 000 Dothraki vs 6 000 chariots, 10 000 heavy cavalry, 10 000 light cavalry and 100 000 light infantry - then the fact that Dothraki nearly lost the battle is even more embarrassing.

We have seen zero proof that Dothraki can and do make siege weapons. And yes, many sieges are resolved by starvation - but you are forgetting that this is not true only for defender, but for the attacker as well. Many sieges failed because the attacker starved. And not just sieges either: in their 1241. invasion of Hungary, Mongols were successful in basically all field battles, but were defeated because they were unable to take key fortifications.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Eh, yes and no. When it comes 

No, it wouldn't. Century of Blood is a very bad example for potential events in Westeros.

First, that is Essos you are talking about, and their military capabilities are... less than impressive. And this includes fortifications as well as everything else.

Second, fortifications are useless without an army to defend them, and Sarnori had destroyed their own armies in internecine warfare long before Dothraki came - in fact, they had utilized Dothraki to help them in their wars. Which I guess does hold true for some areas of Westeros - but the Reach is largely intact, as is Dorne, and Riverlands never had a chance to fully mobilize and thus likely still have significant number of troops available, much like the North does. And seeing how most of lords of the Stormlands switched sides, multiple times in some cases, it is likely that most of Stormlands' strength is largely intact as well. In fact, only kingdoms that should be really depleted are the Westerlands and the Crownlands.

Third, Sarnori were a Bronze Age civilization, utilizing undisciplined light infantry as a support for chariots. Chariots are automatically inferior to any kind of cavalry, and light infantry is not good at standing up to horse archers. Despite that, Dothraki were actually losing the battle and were only saved by a lucky happenstance: one or two khals had died, and Dothraki started breaking in the center, which then led to Sarnori breaking formation and chasing after the broken Dothraki. This in turn led to them being encircled and destroyed by Dothraki flanks. So to recap: Dothraki were losing against a completely undisciplined Bronze Age army and only managed to win when they got victory literally handed to them on a silver platter. And when you look at numbers - 80 000 Dothraki vs 6 000 chariots, 10 000 heavy cavalry, 10 000 light cavalry and 100 000 light infantry - then the fact that Dothraki nearly lost the battle is even more embarrassing.

We have seen zero proof that Dothraki can and do make siege weapons. And yes, many sieges are resolved by starvation - but you are forgetting that this is not true only for defender, but for the attacker as well. Many sieges failed because the attacker starved. And not just sieges either: in their 1241. invasion of Hungary, Mongols were successful in basically all field battles, but were defeated because they were unable to take key fortifications.

1) nope if anything the free cities are beyond westeros in military terms as would be the ancient valyrians whos cities the dothraki took . Building wise the essosi walled cities and even towns dwarf those in westeros.

 

2) they fought among themselves as the westerosi have  too. As for not meeting the dothraki in open battle  to contest who rules that area thats a hard sell for any lord in medieval times. 

 

3) they didnt nearly lose the battle it clearly says they walked them into   a trap , the centre was always supposed.to collapse.and run as the the other khals surrounded the main force.

Yes but being trapped in a building you are.stuck with what supplies you stored whereas a surrounding force can leave enough to hold the siege and the rest forage ...or even move part of the force on while the rest besiege  (like jamie and tywin in the riverlands)

As.for the mongols like the hun theres so many misconceptions, one failed.campaign doesnt alter the fact both these forces were excellent at siegecraft often  employing captured siege engineers and rewarding/promoting on merit rather than status.

The dothraki are a poor poor mans huns rip off (esp as the bulk of both the mongols and huns were actualy allied foot not horse archers) but while    we havent seen them employ siege weapons   we also dont know they cant make or use them. Drogo we know dreamed of sacking a huge walled city

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

1) nope if anything the free cities are beyond westeros in military terms as would be the ancient valyrians whos cities the dothraki took . Building wise the essosi walled cities and even towns dwarf those in westeros.

Free cities rely on Westeros style sellswords so how are they ahead of Westeros? Also the Valyrians had dragons, but we don't know anything about their armies. They may well have been worse than Westeros ones given it seems like they relied on their dragons to do all the fighting.

Just now, astarkchoice said:

we havent seen them employ siege weapons   we also dont know they cant make or use them

I just think it's highly likely that Daenerys would have mentioned by now if they did have siege weapons.

[astarkchoice]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I feel like if Dothraki had siege engines Daenerys would have mentioned it by now though. Also in order to starve out a castle the Dothraki themselves would need ample provisions as well, something than will be harder to come by with winter and the food shortage etc.

But we don't know if they had Westeros style castles or not. Also there were other factors that contributed to the Dothraki success there.

To be fair for all her time with them she saw them in combat like twice and none of that was sieges

Provisions might be hard to come by but  we can assume hardy nomads on horseback can forage far and wild and live on the land very well..esp if theres food set aside for westeros bizzare winters in towns and villages everywhere.

 

We know they build walled cities that dwarf many in westeros , of what we have seen theres.nothing to suggest their fortifications are lesser than westeros ....if anything they seem to do everything on a grander scale

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Provisions might be hard to come by but  we can assume hardy nomads on horseback can forage far and wild and live on the land very well..esp if theres food set aside for westeros bizzare winters in towns and villages everywhere.

The issue I have is that the Dothraki need fodder for their horses as well as food for themselves. There is already a big food crisis looming in Westeros by my account. So unless Daenerys brings over tonnes of food the Dothraki would starve. They are not used to Westeros and game etc. will likely be scarce because everyone else who's hungry will already have hunted them.

Just now, astarkchoice said:

To be fair for all her time with them she saw them in combat like twice and none of that was sieges

It's not impossible but I think it's unlikely and would have been mentioned by now if they had them. Given they can't even build their own houses...

[astarkchoice]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Free cities rely on Westeros style sellswords so how are they ahead of Westeros? Also the Valyrians had dragons, but we don't know anything about their armies. They may well have been worse than Westeros ones given it seems like they relied on their dragons to do all the fighting.

I just think it's highly likely that Daenerys would have mentioned by now if they did have siege weapons.

They rely on professional paid armies not the older feudal system , bravos is a naval superpower in waiting , their weaponsmakers are 2nd to none

The vayrians seem to have had similar military to westeros but dragonfire of course gave them the ability to create both valyrian steel and unusual bizzare stonework 

 

Dany hasnt seen them at a siege though nor have they had reason to build any siege weapons...she did say drogo was planning to sack a major walked city in the east which indicates they havent lost the ability to sack walled cities from the century of blood.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

They rely on professional paid armies not the older feudal system

But the sellsword companies are all Westeros style so it's not like they are on a completely different level.

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Dany hasnt seen them at a siege though nor have they had reason to build any siege weapons...she did say drogo was planning to sack a major walked city in the east which indicates they havent lost the ability to sack walled cities from the century of blood.

I just think it's unlikely. They aren't mentioned as having siege engines by anyone, they can't build their own houses so it's unlikely they could build siege engines, so they'd have to get slaves to do it for them, but slaves with that expertise are likely in the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities which they don't attack...

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue I have is that the Dothraki need fodder for their horses as well as food for themselves. There is already a big food crisis looming in Westeros by my account. So unless Daenerys brings over tonnes of food the Dothraki would starve. They are not used to Westeros and game etc. will likely be scarce because everyone else who's hungry will already have hunted them.

It's not impossible but I think it's unlikely and would have been mentioned by now if they had them. Given they can't even build their own houses...

They can range far and wide and get  fodder  of course westeros bizzare winter will kill them but that holds for westeros population too! We must assume for the long winters theres food storages to be found.

 

 

They chose not to live in houses thats not the same thing

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

They chose not to live in houses thats not the same thing

They choose not to but they also just cannot build them or anything else. They are totally reliant on slaves to do that for them.

Quote

 "The Dothraki do not build. A thousand years ago, to make a house, they would dig a hole in the earth and cover it with a woven grass roof. The buildings you see were made by slaves brought here from lands they've plundered, and they built each after the fashion of their own peoples."

 

Just now, astarkchoice said:

They can range far and wide and get  fodder  of course westeros bizzare winter will kill them but that holds for westeros population too! We must assume for the long winters theres food storages to be found.

I think the winter will kill a large portion of the population due to starvation. Dothraki will starve along with everyone else.

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the sellsword companies are all Westeros style so it's not like they are on a completely different level.

I just think it's unlikely. They aren't mentioned as having siege engines by anyone, they can't build their own houses so it's unlikely they could build siege engines, so they'd have to get slaves to do it for them, but slaves with that expertise are likely in the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities which they don't attack...

Not hugely different no ...but in terms of.buildings they do seem to have much larger walled cities with a more modern economy etc. 

 

Well we.know they have taken cities from pretty much every major civilisation , that current walled  free cities prefer to pay them off and that drogo's future plans were to sack a major walled city