How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[astarkchoice]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They choose not to but they also just cannot build them or anything else. They are totally reliant on slaves to do that for them.

 

I think the winter will kill a large portion of the population due to starvation. Dothraki will starve along with everyone else.

 

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

If jorah is correct it means they will force slaves to build them..we.know essosi slaves can build siege weapons and trenches just fine as dany is finding out!

 

Yeah of course nothing is pointing to a nice happy ending at all. The ugly truth will be the dothraki like other armed forces will not starve before the unarmed population do...everything the commoners outside city walls have can be taken at swordpoint!

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Not hugely different no ...but in terms of.buildings they do seem to have much larger walled cities with a more modern economy etc. 

 

Well we.know they have taken cities from pretty much every major civilisation , that current walled  free cities prefer to pay them off and that drogo's future plans were to sack a major walled city

They prefer to pay them off because it's more convenient, but I don't think that means they couldn't resist them if they tried. Qohor only needed 3000 unsullied to defend from 20,000 Dothraki - and the Dothraki strategy amounted to charging at the walls of the city. If they had siege engines that would have been the time to use them.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

If jorah is correct it means they will force slaves to build them..we.know essosi slaves can build siege weapons and trenches just fine as dany is finding out!

Thing is I don't know if they'd have access to slaves that could construct siege weapons slaves with that expertise are likely in the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities which they don't attack...

Also Daenerys doesn't approve of slavery.

[astarkchoice]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

They prefer to pay them off because it's more convenient, but I don't think that means they couldn't resist them if they tried. Qohor only needed 3000 unsullied to defend from 20,000 Dothraki - and the Dothraki strategy amounted to charging at the walls of the city. If they had siege engines that would have been the time to use them.

To be fair thats because of one battle where the dothraki fought like idiots. We know since then like all other free cities they pay up, siege  engines wouldnt gave been brought out til the battle was won anyway.

If they where that easy to shrug off esp from some of essos.huge walled cities then there would be no reason to bother with mafia like protection money payoffs..its more convenient yes but there must be something behind the threat for it to be worth the greedy mechants paying up

[astarkchoice]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thing is I don't know if they'd have access to slaves that could construct siege weapons slaves with that expertise are likely in the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities which they don't attack...

Also Daenerys doesn't approve of slavery.

They can buy them ..if the utterly useless slaver generals can get their slaves to build siege weapons and trenches then it wouldnt be too hard to hire the expertise

 

Shed doesnt but if the expertise is there then it can be hired instead of whipped.into use 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

To be fair thats because of one battle where the dothraki fought like idiots.

They did but there's nothing to suggest this wasn't their standard modus operandi.

Just now, astarkchoice said:

siege  engines wouldnt gave been brought out til the battle was won anyway.

I think it's clear that they had none because there is absolutely no mention of them anywhere. Not even waiting to be brought in, or being dismantled or built.

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

If they where that easy to shrug off esp from some of essos.huge walled cities then there would be no reason to bother with mafia like protection money payoffs..its more convenient yes but there must be something behind the threat for it to be worth the greedy mechants paying up

It seems to me like they pay them off because it costs less money than actually fighting. Most of the free cities are oligarchies where all the leaders are concerned with profit most of all.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

They can buy them ..if the utterly useless slaver generals can get their slaves to build siege weapons and trenches then it wouldnt be too hard to hire the expertise

They could but I think they sell slaves rather than buying them.

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Shed doesnt but if the expertise is there then it can be hired instead of whipped.into use

It can but that's Daenerys having siege engines not the Dothraki naturally having them.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

They did but there's nothing to suggest this wasn't their standard modus operandi.

I think it's clear that they had none because there is absolutely no mention of them anywhere. Not even waiting to be brought in, or being dismantled or built.

It seems to me like they pay them off because it costs less money than actually fighting. Most of the free cities are oligarchies where all the leaders are concerned with profit most of all.

If they were that rubbish they wouldnt have taken so many cities   , the only.other battle.we see they lure sanori into a.trap to be flanked on all sides so theyarent utterly idiots

You wouldnt get them out while theres a force there, they can win the battle then assemble them...theres also 0 evidence they didnt have them too

Yes but to hand over hard won cash vs fighting there has to be some.credible threat behind it.....a local.shopkeeper would rather avoid violence but wont hand over money to the mafia if they were all pussies no?

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They could but I think they sell slaves rather than buying them.

It can but that's Daenerys having siege engines not the Dothraki naturally having them.

Usualy yes but we can assume they do sometimes take on skilled ones 

 

Again we know they have taken walled cities and drogo had  planned to take some too thus they either can build them or get others to do.it for them...either way works

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

If they were that rubbish they wouldnt have taken so many cities   , the only.other battle.we see they lure sanori into a.trap to be flanked on all sides so theyarent utterly idiots

Sarnori aren't a great example as they had massive infighting problems at the time. I think a lot of the Dothraki success can be attributed to the instability in the region following the fall of Valyria. They haven't been up to much since then.

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

...theres also 0 evidence they didnt have them too

There's no decisive evidence either way but I think it's more likely they didn't have them. They would have been mentioned explicitly by now.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Sarnori aren't a great example as they had massive infighting problems at the time. I think a lot of the Dothraki success can be attributed to the instability in the region following the fall of Valyria. They haven't been up to much since then.

There's no decisive evidence either way but I think it's more likely they didn't have them. They would have been mentioned explicitly by now.

They did but that wasnt a factor in their loss in the field.of crows, the dothraki showed some limited tactical thinking meaning they dont always fight like morons  siege of qohor style

Overall they seem to have  stagnated yes not pushing out but killing themselves ,.like drug lords fighting over lucrative territory now that  a rich  slave trade equillibrium has settled! But we do see there was oppertunity for a khal drogo to rise and upset the balance and push out again

 

Khal droho doesnt seem.like a wooly headed dreamer,.if he planned to.sack  walled cities east or west (prior to danys posioning attempt)  then he must have known this was realistic for his people.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Khal droho doesnt seem.like a wooly headed dreamer,.if he planned to.sack  walled cities east or west (prior to danys posioning attempt)  then he must have known this was realistic for his people.

Maybe but given his tendancy to refuse medical treatment and then disobey clear instructions relating to said medical treatment I wonder how smart he really was...

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Overall they seem to have  stagnated yes not pushing out but killing themselves ,.like drug lords fighting over lucrative territory now that  a rich  slave trade equillibrium has settled! But we do see there was oppertunity for a khal drogo to rise and upset the balance and push out again

I think this could also be linked to the fact that they've wiped out almost every other civilization in the area. Only thing left seems to be Lhazar. They won't attack the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities because they pay well. So limited places to raid really.

[astarkchoice]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe but given his tendancy to refuse medical treatment and then disobey clear instructions relating to said medical treatment I wonder how smart he really was...

I think this could also be linked to the fact that they've wiped out almost every other civilization in the area. Only thing left seems to be Lhazar. They won't attack the Free Cities or the Slaver Cities because they pay well. So limited places to raid really.

Sometimes smart people do stupid stuff to be macho, also people.can be smart about some issues (war) but clueless with others. Either way he wouldnt have planned or spoken about it if it wasnt realistic 

Well there would.still be many smaller towns and villages outside the major cities but yeah theyd gotten into a profitable balanced rut , drogo is an rare example.of someome.that comes alomg that  could alter centuries old balance

 

 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:08 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

We all know (I hope) the lore for the Unsullied and Dothraki, but to me it seems like they've been inflated.....case in point: the Dothraki somehow being a threat despite being a horde of unarmored horseback riders for over 300 years despite the tale of the Three Thousand of Qohor and their apparent tactics (i.e charging straight at a line, rather than simply doing a caracole  over and over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracole). 

 

The Unsullied:

• They apparently fight in a phalanx, wearing quilted armor (I suppose we could interpret this as a gambeson or a Greek linthorax), but a phalanx is vulnerable to the right and the rear(since it it's all facing forward). Plus, textile armor simply isn't as good as a simple hauberk or half plate. 
• One of their advantages is that they don't feel pain, but if you don't feel pain won't you simply not do anything about it until it's a bit late? I suppose you could order them to report any wounds....
• They apparently ask no questions and follow all orders. Which means they won't take the initiative.....which means they might lose the battle. 
• Their fighting method is conductive to flat open terrain, and Westeros isn't all flat and dry

The Dothraki:

• Light unarmored (it's hard to communicate how quickly an unarmored person on a battlefield would be killed. And before somebody pops up talking about naked Gauls, they used shields which the Dothraki apparently don't. Plus, the Gauls were the ones who invented mail so....) nomadic cavalry, whose tactics and weapons don't seem to have really changed since Khal Temmo lost
• They don't have the patience for siege warfare
• In the Burgundian Wars, back in the 1400s, Swiss pikemen regularly cut apart heavy horse, armored knights. If they could do that to armored knights, how exactly would a pike square (with archers probably) fare against light cavalry who've been noted to simply charge something instead of a more intelligent tactic? 
• Same as the Unsullied for terrain problems

That said, how do you all think that they'll perform in Westeros (if they ever get there )? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, if it is, please move it.

@Lord Lannister, @Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers, @Willam Stark, @StarksInTheNorth, @Aldarion, @Daeron the Daring

The Dothraki khalasars will sweep through Westeros and clear away the resistance.  It will be a slaughter of the men in the iron suits and their peasant armies.  The remainder will quickly scamper back to their castles but their supplies will not last long.  The War of the Five Kings has depleted the manpower.  Westeros is weak. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The Dothraki khalasars will sweep through Westeros and clear away the resistance.  It will be a slaughter of the men in the iron suits and their peasant armies.

No it won't. Knights will fare quite well against Dothraki I think. Because the Dothraki have extreme difficulty getting past that armour.

6 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

he remainder will quickly scamper back to their castles but their supplies will not last long.

If they have good provisions then their supplies will last long.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

No it won't. Knights will fare quite well against Dothraki I think. Because the Dothraki have extreme difficulty getting past that armour.

If they have good provisions then their supplies will last long.

Hmm maybe in a straight up charge the knights will slaughter them.or in close quarters if they can get the dothraki to hold still HOWEVER just as with historical horse archers vs heavy/light cavalry its when it becomes a more fluid free flowing mobile cavalry  battle  is then it becomes a fight ...the dothraki getting the knights to chase them to be flanked, horses shot out from under them , peppered with arrows , knocked off etc

 

As for the arkh we know ser barristan embarassed a pitfighter whod never seen armour before BUT jorah we know was saved by plot armour not actual armour as  a blood rider found a gap but it stuck in his hipbone + danys lover has used one vs other westerosi armoured style sellswords for years + strong belwas kills mereens armoured champion with ease using one

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

jorah we know was saved by plot armour not actual armour as  a blood rider found a gap but it stuck in his hipbone + danys lover has used one vs other westerosi armoured style sellswords for years + strong belwas kills mereens armoured champion with ease using one

To be fair, Jorah wasn't wearing a helmet. I expect most knights would wear a helmet in battle. I love Strong Belwas but I don't think it's comparable as it was a one v one fight and the Meerenese champion wasn't a knight, plus Dothraki would be mounted as well so wouldn't fight like Belwas. 

The other issue is that the knights are armour while the Dothraki aren't, so the Dothraki are very vulnerable compared to them. Like a knight could survive a blow that would kill a Dothraki due to their lack of armour.

[SeanF]

Martin has built the Dothraki up as great, almost invincible, warriors, so rule of cool applies.

The problem is that the world-building behind the Dothraki is very weak.  The peoples on which they are based, Mongols, Alans, Huns, and other steppe peoples, were well aware of the value of armour, and stirrups, and understood military strategies.   They used both heavy and light cavalry. They conducted war games, and practised communal hunting, so as to hone their military performance.  They did not slaughter each other on sight, but understood that violence had to be regulated. Nor did they wander around half naked, but actually liked wearing fine clothes when they had the opportunity.

[Aldarion]

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

1) nope if anything the free cities are beyond westeros in military terms as would be the ancient valyrians whos cities the dothraki took . Building wise the essosi walled cities and even towns dwarf those in westeros.

 

Not even close. We don't even know military capabilities of free cities, nor do we know military capabilities of dragon-less Valyrian colonies. What we do know are military capabilities of Sarnori - whom I am discussing here - and of the cities of Slaver's Bay, and both of these are basically nonexistent compared to Westeros.

OK, we know that Volantis uses Tiger cloaks, who are slave soldiers. That alone is rather damning of Free Cities' potential military capabilities, considering what we know of Essosi treatment of slave soldiers. These are no Janissaries, although how good Tiger cloaks is as of yet unknown. Braavos has a major navy, but no indication of how powerful its ground troops are. Qohor uses Unsullied, who are a joke compared to Westerosi pikemen. Pentos has no army, just a city watch. Myr, Lys and Tyrosh use mercenaries - which are likely Westerosi - though they seem to have some native military capability as well.

We do however know that the Golden Company as well as other truly successful mercenary companies in Essos are organized along the Westerosi lines. That should tell you something about relative military capabilities of Westeros vs Essos.

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

2) they fought among themselves as the westerosi have  too. As for not meeting the dothraki in open battle  to contest who rules that area thats a hard sell for any lord in medieval times. 

 

You do understand what castles are for? Dothraki are utterly incapable of proper siege warfare. Why would any Westerosi lord bother facing them in the open battle?

Look at how Hungary - a far from unified kingdom at the time - behaved when faced with actual Mongols:

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/18/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-1-overview-of-the-invasion/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/12/09/mongol-siege-of-klis-fortress/

https://historyandwar.org/2021/12/16/how-mongol-invasion-shaped-hungarys-defense-strategy/

Notice something in the last article? Reforms implemented by Bela IV following the first Mongol invasion - building of stone castles, creation of nobility, new military organization with focus on heavy cavalry provided by landed nobility, recruitment of crossbowmen - are exactly how Westerosi military is organized to begin with. In other words, Westeros is already nearly perfectly set up to defeat Mongol invasion. Why do you think discount Mongols would somehow present a major threat?

And when Dothraki are neutralized, it will come down to Unsullied + Essosi mercenaries against Westerosi forces and... well, unless Daenerys gains major support of Westerosi noble houses and their armies, that is simply not something Essosi forces can win.

Of course, Martin could always turn Daenerys into Mary Sue that will win every battle regardless of logic, with her hordes of freed slaves barehandedly ripping apart Westerosi knights, but somehow I don't think that is what he is going for. She will face major setbacks in Westeros, that will make her question everything she believed in.

16 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

3) they didnt nearly lose the battle it clearly says they walked them into   a trap , the centre was always supposed.to collapse.and run as the the other khals surrounded the main force.

You don't lose a khal amid the collapsing troops when you are executing a pre-planned ambush.

No, it was not an ambush. It was a collapse, a defeat which turned into the opportunity which was then exploited - but fact remains that Dothraki were losing the battle early on. Either that, or Dothraki were in fact utterly incapable of properly executing a false retreat - something European feudal armies did on occasion, while Byzantines, Turks and Mongols did it regularly.

One way or another, it does not suggest high degree of military capability and coordination on the part of the Dothraki. They proved somewhat better than Sarnori, but, well... damned with faint praise and all that.

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Yes but being trapped in a building you are.stuck with what supplies you stored whereas a surrounding force can leave enough to hold the siege and the rest forage ...or even move part of the force on while the rest besiege  (like jamie and tywin in the riverlands)

That is not how sieges work, and it is not how foraging works either. Army within a castle will have had the luxury of being prepared for the siege, which means that they already will have stripped the countryside clean of anything useful. This means that yes, besieging army can forage - but it may have nothing to forage in the first place. Countryside is stripped clean, it has nothing useful left, no food, nothing. Where is besieging army going to get food from?

Sure, it can try to bring food from further afield... but that means using either ships - which can be intercepted - or, if there is no river handy, it means using oxen carts - and oxen will be eating the very food they are transporting. These are no diesel trucks. Which means that even if there is food within the forage range, there is no guarantee there will be enough of it to maintain the army for long enough time for the defenders to starve.

Most of the time, sieges failed because besieging army starved. Yes, you read that correctly.

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As.for the mongols like the hun theres so many misconceptions, one failed.campaign doesnt alter the fact both these forces were excellent at siegecraft often  employing captured siege engineers and rewarding/promoting on merit rather than status.

The dothraki are a poor poor mans huns rip off (esp as the bulk of both the mongols and huns were actualy allied foot not horse archers) but while    we havent seen them employ siege weapons   we also dont know they cant make or use them. Drogo we know dreamed of sacking a huge walled city

Mongols had more than one failed siege. In fact, literally every time they faced a Western-design stone castle - be it in Croatia in 1241/2., in Levant, or in Poland and Hungary in 1285. - they failed. In Korea and China too, attempts to besiege castles generally failed - but these countries were close enough to Mongol heartlands that Mongols could try again, and again, and again. More importantly, in China Mongols managed to recruit masses of native Jin infantry - and it was Chinese infantry which conquered Chinese castles and cities for Mongols, not Mongols themselves. Jin infantry was also utilized in Korea. Needless to say, this infantry was not available in Mongol western campaigns, and as a result, Mongol attempts to conquer European stone castles were doomed to failure.

Drogo may have dreamed of whatever he wanted. Doesn't mean he was capable of actually doing it. Mongols also dreamed of conquering Hungary, and their first attempt failed, while second attempt was such an embarrassing failure that most people don't even remember it any more.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair, Jorah wasn't wearing a helmet. I expect most knights would wear a helmet in battle. I love Strong Belwas but I don't think it's comparable as it was a one v one fight and the Meerenese champion wasn't a knight, plus Dothraki would be mounted as well so wouldn't fight like Belwas. 

The other issue is that the knights are armour while the Dothraki aren't, so the Dothraki are very vulnerable compared to them. Like a knight could survive a blow that would kill a Dothraki due to their lack of armour.

True but the bloodrider got him in the hipbome, if it hadnt stuck hed have left jorah in the dirt bleeding out. The meerense champ didnt wear helmet true but strong belwas prob woulda killed him regardless

They do so if they can get the dothraki into a tight close quarter melee itl.be a slaughter ..however if the dothraki can fall back and make it an open flowing mobile cavalry battle then horsemanship will be the major decider! The closest example i can think of it working out for them is carthages famous  unarmoured numidian javelin wiedling  cavalry constantly easily beating romes well armoured cavalry!