astarkchoice Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Not even close. We don't even know military capabilities of free cities, nor do we know military capabilities of dragon-less Valyrian colonies. What we do know are military capabilities of Sarnori - whom I am discussing here - and of the cities of Slaver's Bay, and both of these are basically nonexistent compared to Westeros. OK, we know that Volantis uses Tiger cloaks, who are slave soldiers. That alone is rather damning of Free Cities' potential military capabilities, considering what we know of Essosi treatment of slave soldiers. These are no Janissaries, although how good Tiger cloaks is as of yet unknown. Braavos has a major navy, but no indication of how powerful its ground troops are. Qohor uses Unsullied, who are a joke compared to Westerosi pikemen. Pentos has no army, just a city watch. Myr, Lys and Tyrosh use mercenaries - which are likely Westerosi - though they seem to have some native military capability as well. We do however know that the Golden Company as well as other truly successful mercenary companies in Essos are organized along the Westerosi lines. That should tell you something about relative military capabilities of Westeros vs Essos. You do understand what castles are for? Dothraki are utterly incapable of proper siege warfare. Why would any Westerosi lord bother facing them in the open battle? Look at how Hungary - a far from unified kingdom at the time - behaved when faced with actual Mongols: https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/18/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-1-overview-of-the-invasion￼/ https://historyandwar.org/2021/11/21/why-1241-mongol-invasion-of-hungary-failed-part-2-reasons-for-mongol-withdrawal￼/ https://historyandwar.org/2021/12/09/mongol-siege-of-klis-fortress/ https://historyandwar.org/2021/12/16/how-mongol-invasion-shaped-hungarys-defense-strategy/ Notice something in the last article? Reforms implemented by Bela IV following the first Mongol invasion - building of stone castles, creation of nobility, new military organization with focus on heavy cavalry provided by landed nobility, recruitment of crossbowmen - are exactly how Westerosi military is organized to begin with. In other words, Westeros is already nearly perfectly set up to defeat Mongol invasion. Why do you think discount Mongols would somehow present a major threat? And when Dothraki are neutralized, it will come down to Unsullied + Essosi mercenaries against Westerosi forces and... well, unless Daenerys gains major support of Westerosi noble houses and their armies, that is simply not something Essosi forces can win. Of course, Martin could always turn Daenerys into Mary Sue that will win every battle regardless of logic, with her hordes of freed slaves barehandedly ripping apart Westerosi knights, but somehow I don't think that is what he is going for. She will face major setbacks in Westeros, that will make her question everything she believed in. You don't lose a khal amid the collapsing troops when you are executing a pre-planned ambush. No, it was not an ambush. It was a collapse, a defeat which turned into the opportunity which was then exploited - but fact remains that Dothraki were losing the battle early on. Either that, or Dothraki were in fact utterly incapable of properly executing a false retreat - something European feudal armies did on occasion, while Byzantines, Turks and Mongols did it regularly. One way or another, it does not suggest high degree of military capability and coordination on the part of the Dothraki. They proved somewhat better than Sarnori, but, well... damned with faint praise and all that. That is not how sieges work, and it is not how foraging works either. Army within a castle will have had the luxury of being prepared for the siege, which means that they already will have stripped the countryside clean of anything useful. This means that yes, besieging army can forage - but it may have nothing to forage in the first place. Countryside is stripped clean, it has nothing useful left, no food, nothing. Where is besieging army going to get food from? Sure, it can try to bring food from further afield... but that means using either ships - which can be intercepted - or, if there is no river handy, it means using oxen carts - and oxen will be eating the very food they are transporting. These are no diesel trucks. Which means that even if there is food within the forage range, there is no guarantee there will be enough of it to maintain the army for long enough time for the defenders to starve. Most of the time, sieges failed because besieging army starved. Yes, you read that correctly. Mongols had more than one failed siege. In fact, literally every time they faced a Western-design stone castle - be it in Croatia in 1241/2., in Levant, or in Poland and Hungary in 1285. - they failed. In Korea and China too, attempts to besiege castles generally failed - but these countries were close enough to Mongol heartlands that Mongols could try again, and again, and again. More importantly, in China Mongols managed to recruit masses of native Jin infantry - and it was Chinese infantry which conquered Chinese castles and cities for Mongols, not Mongols themselves. Jin infantry was also utilized in Korea. Needless to say, this infantry was not available in Mongol western campaigns, and as a result, Mongol attempts to conquer European stone castles were doomed to failure. Drogo may have dreamed of whatever he wanted. Doesn't mean he was capable of actually doing it. Mongols also dreamed of conquering Hungary, and their first attempt failed, while second attempt was such an embarrassing failure that most people don't even remember it any more. 1)we know their building capabilities tyrion clears up that their walled towns and cities are way beyond most westerosi ones and slavers bays are described as vast too. Military wise they have professional forces not feudal levies so are a little further along than westeros. The bravosi naval potential to rule the world is untapped and we know the triarchy contested with westeros for control of the stepstones which was resolved with dragons. As for unsullied vs pikemen that would be a one sided slaughter if the pikemen are unsupported...pikes/long spear phalanx alone vs normal spears/short swords has never ended well for the pikemen up close and flanked As for losing a khal yes officers and leaders die in battles all the time esp.if.leading from the front, the other khals where waiting at both sides and to.circle.around the sanori after they persued into the centre 2) the entire point of a castle is to have a strong.point to waste your enemies strength agaisnt and sally out to win or harass from....its not to be hunkered down in for unless you are very outmatched in open warfare or are expecting reinforcements. https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/69edsm/why_were_the_mongols_so_bad_at_taking_stone/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Well we have already covered they must be capable of siege warfare otherwise they couldnt have taken so many massive walled cities! we know the hun were excellent at siege warfare as where the mongols,.not that it matters as for both mongols,huns and europeans most forts where taken by siege not storming/smashed down walls while if well.organised stripping the area outside can hurt attackers generaly its still easier to live off the land outside than on rations inside esp.given cramped.conditions+ bad made disease a real threat in medieval.times ,spoilage, vermin,betrayal , riots etc...bear in mind most sieges were ended with surrender due to starvation INSIDE or negotiation. The dothraki dont have to sit their whole.horde outside just enough to maintain the siege while some.of the rest forgage far away or even move most of the rest onto the next target! The link i posted sorta covers annexcellent discussion on mongol failures esp theres an excellent article halfway down i couldnt link here .1st attempt in europe was before 1268 when they got the counterweight trebuchet which pretty.much the everyones main way to take down proper stone walls....2nd attempt was by an unadvanced region offshoot.of the mongol into a well prepared country and with fortifications dug into the frigging carpathian mountains...literaly a hard rock for any force to.crack! Outside of mongols we know the hun were excellent at sieges and in this universe the dothraki have taken walled cities from people whos towns look like westeros cities! Drogo had planned it and as we see hungary was a mixture of factors including lucky timing. Edited October 11, 2022 by astarkchoice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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