Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 16 minutes ago, Ran said: It's a film that features a man plummeting to his death, a shooting, and a woman punching a journalist in its last five minutes. Where is the warmth and goodwill towards man? Not a Christmas movie. The journalist was a piece of shit who had it coming. And I think you're overstating the need for warmth, hope etc. Those are hallmarks for a sappier Christmas movie, but not all of them. The holidays are pretty miserable for a lot of people, so saying that needs to be a theme cuts out a lot of movies that should be eligible to qualify. And just to touch on Gremlins, yes it does take place on Christmas, but that is not why it's a Christmas movie. By your own standard those conditions were loosely met in the film even if it's a dark R movie for the majority of its runtime. That's different from Black Christmas, which really has no themes associated with Christmas films, and Batman & Robin's only real attachment to Christmas is they made so many decisions on set based on selling toys at Christmas. 1 hour ago, DMC said: Yes, it is very vapid. The standard you're setting is that the obvious references to Christmas - from an immaculate conception to the Bethlehem star and the nativity story to taking place around Christmas/the winter solstice to, literally, a Christmas tree - doesn't make it a Christmas film because all these things can be seen in other cultures or faiths. That is an absurd standard that renders basically nothing a Christmas movie. I just have to disagree. A Christmas movie will typically let you know that Christmas is a central theme. Prometheus from the jump is telling you that they're interested in numerous cultures, not just Christmas or Christianity. It's a film way more in line with Jurassic Park, techno-thrillers about man's relationship with playing god and how it's bound to go wrong. Quote As for "reading way too much into it," give me a break. Shaw's faith and consequently the premise of the film mirroring the nativity story is very clear to anyone paying attention (well, and is familiar with the nativity story), as is, obviously, the Christmas tree. I guess a casual viewer could miss the timeframe of the film, but it's right there - and Elba breaking out the Christmas tree is a pretty big clue. You're really letting that Christmas tree do too much work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: I just have to disagree. A Christmas movie will typically let you know that Christmas is a central theme. Prometheus from the jump is telling you that they're interested in numerous cultures, not just Christmas or Christianity. We do indeed. It is preposterous to suggest that Christmas is a "central theme" of Die Hard. I also have no idea why you're hung up on the "Christianity" aspect of it. In plenty of Christmas movies - even actual Christmas movies - the specific faith of the characters is purely incidental/irrelevant. You seem to have an almost evangelical standard for Christmas movies that makes no sense and poses as if other Christmas movies aren't interested in numerous cultures and even faiths. 9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: You're really letting that Christmas tree do too much work. No, the basic premise of the film blatantly being inspired by Christmas does most of the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Is Krampus a Christmas movie? In Bad Santa, is Billy Bob Thornton's survival sufficient positivity to connote hope or joy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 I'm surprised proponents of Die Hard have not brought up perhaps its strongest connection to Christmas movies. The actress who plays McClane's wife - Bonnie Bedelia - is the real life aunt of Kevin McCallister himself. Also, is Die Hard 2 a Christmas movie? It takes place on Christmas Eve as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said: Is Krampus a Christmas movie? No. 2 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said: In Bad Santa, is Billy Bob Thornton's survival sufficient positivity to connote hope or joy? I have genuinely not seen the film, but this Vanity Fair writer agrees that a moral is important to what makes something a Christmas film, and notes that whatever moral lesson Bad Santa has it's a pretty un-Christmasy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, Ran said: I have genuinely not seen the film, cannot believe anyone would admit this on a public forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 The positive message of Bad Santa is that if you dress up like Santa you can get a woman like Lauren Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 30 minutes ago, DMC said: The positive message of Bad Santa is that if you dress up like Santa you can get a woman like Lauren Graham. or that if you keep offering sandwiches to an alcoholic criminal he'll give you really cool shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 3 hours ago, DMC said: We do indeed. It is preposterous to suggest that Christmas is a "central theme" of Die Hard. I also have no idea why you're hung up on the "Christianity" aspect of it. In plenty of Christmas movies - even actual Christmas movies - the specific faith of the characters is purely incidental/irrelevant. You seem to have an almost evangelical standard for Christmas movies that makes no sense and poses as if other Christmas movies aren't interested in numerous cultures and even faiths. No, the basic premise of the film blatantly being inspired by Christmas does most of the work. I don't think I have an "evangelical standard," whatever you mean by that. I'm pretty open to allowing movies to be labeled as Christmas movies, but I just don't see it with Prometheus. The film explores, faith, religion, spirituality, etc., and yes, does have some Christmas symbolism, but I don't think that really makes it a true Christmas film. It's bleak, everyone ends off worse than they started (mostly dead) and the main faith based character appears to have more doubt by the end of the film (or at least that's how I took the ending). Out of curiosity, what Christmas movies do you have in mind that really explore other cultures and faiths? 2 hours ago, 1066 Larry said: cannot believe anyone would admit this on a public forum Indeed. Bad Santa is a top 5 Christmas movie for me. On the subject, I always find it fascinating to hear how people categorize The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's a slam dunk for me, but I always run into people who associate it more with Halloween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: I don't think that really makes it a true Christmas film. It's bleak 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Indeed. Bad Santa is a top 5 Christmas movie for me. ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 I don't think Prometheus is a Christmas movie really myself, but the arguments for it are definitely helped if you know that originally there was gonna be a bit about how the Engineers had previously sent an ambassador to preach to humanity to be less violent but he ended up being crucified. That said, Tywin's right that there's a lot going on and there's a reason the title is lifted from Greek mythology and not Christianity. And that none of what the film is actually talking about is to do with Christmas itself, either the Christian message or the family and gift-giving traditions grown up around it. It'd be a stretch. Die Hard though: definite Christmas movie. I won't say unequivocally coz clearly people are up in here equivocating like motherfuckers but for all the shooting and violence and just plain being really American, there's a very clear 'be with the family for the holidays' message to it that is pretty bang on for seasonal films. It's got exactly the kind of sweet-or-mawkish-depending-on-taste sentimentality driving the plot that a typical Christmas movie would have, as well as just being at Christmas- it's just got a load of 'yeehaw' on top. Should be talking more about Tokyo Godfathers though. The best Christmas movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 42 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: I don't think I have an "evangelical standard," whatever you mean by that. I'm pretty open to allowing movies to be labeled as Christmas movies, but I just don't see it with Prometheus. The film explores, faith, religion, spirituality, etc., and yes, does have some Christmas symbolism, but I don't think that really makes it a true Christmas film. It's bleak, everyone ends off worse than they started (mostly dead) and the main faith based character appears to have more doubt by the end of the film (or at least that's how I took the ending). Out of curiosity, what Christmas movies do you have in mind that really explore other cultures and faiths? Indeed. Bad Santa is a top 5 Christmas movie for me. On the subject, I always find it fascinating to hear how people categorize The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's a slam dunk for me, but I always run into people who associate it more with Halloween. Ok, here's a potential new item to consider: when was the movie released? Nightmare Before Christmas was definitely released a couple weeks before Halloween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 47 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: I don't think I have an "evangelical standard," whatever you mean by that. I'm pretty open to allowing movies to be labeled as Christmas movies, but I just don't see it with Prometheus. The film explores, faith, religion, spirituality, etc., and yes, does have some Christmas symbolism, but I don't think that really makes it a true Christmas film. It's bleak, everyone ends off worse than they started (mostly dead) and the main faith based character appears to have more doubt by the end of the film (or at least that's how I took the ending). Out of curiosity, what Christmas movies do you have in mind that really explore other cultures and faiths? Indeed. Bad Santa is a top 5 Christmas movie for me. On the subject, I always find it fascinating to hear how people categorize The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's a slam dunk for me, but I always run into people who associate it more with Halloween. Ok, here's a potential new item to consider: when was the movie released? Nightmare Before Christmas was definitely released a couple weeks before Halloween. eta: Nightmare Before Christmas: Oct 13 1993 Die Hard: Jul 22 1988 Bad Santa: Nov 26 2003 Prometheus: June 8 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, polishgenius said: originally there was gonna be a bit about how the Engineers had previously sent an ambassador to preach to humanity to be less violent but he ended up being crucified. Hence me echoing Scott's reasoning for why he cut that - that it'd be "a little too on the nose." Just now, 1066 Larry said: Nightmare Before Christmas: Oct 13 1993 Die Hard: Jul 22 1988 Bad Santa: Nov 26 2003 Prometheus: June 8 2012 Heh, looking it up, Die Hard 2 was released on July 4. Gremlins was released in June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 I don't recall what possible reason there could be for Prometheus to even be considered a Christmas movie. Were there some decorations on the ship? It's been a while since I've seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Die Hard though: definite Christmas movie. I won't say unequivocally coz clearly people are up in here equivocating like motherfuckers but for all the shooting and violence and just plain being really American, there's a very clear 'be with the family for the holidays' message to it that is pretty bang on for seasonal films. It's got exactly the kind of sweet-or-mawkish-depending-on-taste sentimentality driving the plot that a typical Christmas movie would have, as well as just being at Christmas- it's just got a load of 'yeehaw' on top. I'm a bit surprised people don't view it as a Christmas movie. To me it hits the same relative notes that makes Home Alone not just a Christmas movie, but one of the greatest ever. DH isn't a Christmas movie if you remove the family element. If McClane is at the Nakatomi Plaza because his college buddy Ellis invited him it would cease to be a Christmas movie and instead be some cop/heist* hybrid film instead. It's being on the outs with his family only to repair it over the course of the film that really hits home and makes it a Christmas classic for me. Likewise, I'm not sure Home Alone would be viewed in the same way if Kevin doesn't disavow his family at the start only to realize how badly he misses them over the course of the film. If he was merely left home alone over the holiday because say he can't travel for health reasons, and then the rest of the film plays out I don't think it would be seen as a holiday classic either. *DMC, you mentioned before when discussing DH3 that you liked it more than DH2 because it was a heist film. I forgot to broach this at the time, but since we're discussing movie classifications, is a movie a heist movie if none of the protagonists are in on it? Also, DH2 is not a Christmas movie in my book. 14 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said: Ok, here's a potential new item to consider: when was the movie released? Nightmare Before Christmas was definitely released a couple weeks before Halloween. eta: Nightmare Before Christmas: Oct 13 1993 Die Hard: Jul 22 1988 Bad Santa: Nov 26 2003 Prometheus: June 8 2012 Release dates are probably a bad indicator. DH and Prometheus were slated as summer box office shots, and numerous movies are released on Christmas Day that have absolutely nothing to do with the holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said: I'm a bit surprised people don't view it as a Christmas movie. To me it hits the same relative notes that makes Home Alone not just a Christmas movie, but one of the greatest ever. DH isn't a Christmas movie if you remove the family element. Probably because others, including myself, view this "central theme" as a rather weak connection - and Die Hard could very easily have taken place any other time of the year and no one would have ever thought it was a Christmas movie. Which, to be clear, is why I don't actually think you're being "evangelical" about Christmas movies. My problem is you're applying ridiculous standards to Prometheus - ones you demonstrably are not applying to any other "Christmas" movie - in order to irrationally dismiss the blatant connections that are objectively every bit as legitimate as Die Hard's. 13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: *DMC, you mentioned before when discussing DH3 that you liked it more than DH2 because it was a heist film. I forgot to broach this at the time, but since we're discussing movie classifications, is a movie a heist movie if none of the protagonists are in on it? No I didn't mean to suggest I was categorizing DH3 as a heist movie, just that it's obviously an element of it and I enjoyed that part. As for whether a movie can be a heist movie if none of the "protagonists" are in on it, I suppose it depends on what you mean by protagonists. At least a main character or two should be involved in the heist, I'd think, but that certainly doesn't mean they have to be a "good guy." Obviously thinking of Heat right now. 16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Also, DH2 is not a Christmas movie in my book. If Die Hard is why isn't it? It is virtually exactly the same "family" message as Die Hard involving exactly the same people in only slightly different circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 56 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: . Release dates are probably a bad indicator. Only because it shatters your thesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 7 hours ago, Ran said: That said, being set during Christmas and even having basic plot action be motivated by Christmas customs (whether office parties or gift-giving) is not enough to make something a Christmas movie. It needs the core theme, the moral lesson, and the core feeling. Wha? Hard disagree with this. By this logic basically all Christmas horror is out. I think we're in a "christmas movie" / "christmas movie" situation. My christmas movie is The Ice Harvest. I watch it each year when I can relax because I survived family Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarGalley Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 All this talk of Christmas movies made me think of Jingle All the Way which I remember to be a fun Xmas time. And looking it up, it's free on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXMvUU_w36Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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