Alabastur Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Quote These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria, The World of Ice and Fire (TWoIaF) According to The World of Ice and Fire, the people who taught the Valyrians to tame dragons had no name. When Bran meets the children of the forest (CotF), he asks one of them if they had a name, their reply was: Quote “Do you have a name?” asked Bran. “When I am needing one.” Leaf, Bran II, A Dance with Dragons (ADWD) “When I am need one,” which basically means, “No.” But later on, we learn that the children don’t use names at all, as Bran and Meera had to make up names for them: Quote Bran and Meera made up names for those who sang the song of earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Black Knife and Snowylocks and Coals. Bran III, ADWD However, the truth is that their true names were too long for human tongues; no human man could speak them: Quote The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. … Their true names were too long for human tongues, said Leaf. Bran III, ADWD Therefore, if the children ever met any other humans, they wouldn’t bother giving their names, which would explain why they’d go down in history as a people with no name: Quote a people so ancient they had no name And yes, they are referred to as people throughout the books: Quote Only the children of the forest dwelt in the lands we now call the Seven Kingdoms. They were a people dark and beautiful… Maester Luwin, A Game of Thrones (GOT)- Bran VII “The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people…” Leaf, ADWD – Bran II Though the men of the Seven Kingdoms might call them the children of the forest, Leaf and her people were far from childlike. ADWD – Bran III But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed: the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Dawn Age Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders. TWOIAF – Dorne: The Breaking They are also constantly referred to as an elder race: Quote No giants ever made their homes here, nor did the children of the forest walk what woods there were. The old gods worshipped by these elder races were likewise absent. TWOIAF – The Iron Islands In some tales, he tried to teach the elder races as well, but the giants roared at him and pelted him with boulders, whilst the children laughed… TWOIAF – The Reach: Garth Greenhand Long before the coming of the First Men, all Westeros belonged to the elder races—the children of the forest and the giants… TWOIAF – The Stormlands: The Coming of the First Men They drove the elder races before them, slaughtering giants wherever they found them, hewing down weirwood trees with their bronze axes, making bloody war against the children of the forest. … the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. … the women of the First Men brought forth sons and daughters with much greater frequency than the females of the elder races. And thus the children and the giants faded, TWOIAF – Dorne: The Breaking Which matches up with the people from the Shadow being ancient: Quote a people so ancient they had no name Arts Furthermore, the key passage regarding these ancient people refers to their knowledge as arts: Quote … a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts… And in two other separate passages within the World Book, we have the words “art” and “arts” together with the “children”/”greenseers” but also “Valyrians” in both passages: Quote This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did). Ancient History: The Dawn Age, TWoIaF The children of the forest were, in many ways, the opposites of the giants. …They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian (what the smallfolk call dragonglass, while the Valyrians knew it by a word meaning “frozen fire”)… Ancient History: The Dawn Age, TWoIaF And this is simply because they both knew the same things. So what the children could have taught the Valyrians is the lost arts of seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm but also the great art of working obsidian: Quote This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did). The children of the forest were, in many ways, the opposites of the giants. …They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian (what the smallfolk call dragonglass, while the Valyrians knew it by a word meaning “frozen fire”)… After all, the children did have a history of teaching things to men; they actually taught the First Men the art of communicating through ravens: Quote Though the children had arts of their own, the truth must always be separated from superstition, and knowledge must be tested and made sure. The higher mysteries, the arts of magic, were and are beyond the boundaries of our mortal ability to examine. …the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Dawn Age But if this theory seems far-fetched; consider that obsidian, or dragonglass, is essentially fire magic. Because not only is it used to kill the Others and power glass candles, but the very element of fire itself can be conjured forth from the stone; fire can be awoken from dragonglass: Quote “Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass.” Quaithe, A Clash of Kings (ACOK) – Daenerys III Which means the children have literally had fire magic in their hands for thousands of years. The Demons in Mossovy and the Shadow But if they were the people from the Shadow, were they even in Essos in the first place? Well, there is a large forest in Essos in which there dwelt a gentle race of creatures who the maesters believe were kin to the children of the forest: Quote …a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race … He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant “those who walk in the woods.” Beyond the Free Cities: Ib, TWoIaF … the woodswalkers, a diminutive folk whom many maesters believe to have been kin to the children of the forest… Beyond the Free Cities: the Grasslands, TWoIaF Additionally, they may have also been in another forest in Essos, in Mossovy: a cold dark land of shapechangers and demon hunters: Quote Beyond N’ghai are the forests of Mossovy, a cold dark land of shapechangers and demon hunters. Beyond the Free Cities: East of Ib, TWoIaF Jojen Reed has suggested that shapechanger is simply another name for skinchanger, what the children essentially are: Quote “Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams.” Bran V, ACoK Regarding the demon hunters of Mossovy, however; there is only one other people who called themselves demonhunters: the knights of the Faith of the Seven: Quote “The Warrior’s Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . “ A Feast for Crows (AFFC) – Cersei VI The Faith of the Seven being a religion brought to Westeros by the Andals, who also hunted the children and saw them as demons: Quote “The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them…” AGoT – Bran VII In their zeal for the Seven, the conquerors looked upon the old gods of the First Men and the children of the forest as little more than demons… TWoIaF – The Riverlands Just like everyone south of the Wall hunts down skinchangers: Quote “The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs.” ADWD – Prologue Therefore, it shouldn’t be too far-fetched that the shapechanging demons being hunted in Mossovy are the skinchanging children of the forest. And demons are also found in the Shadow. These demons reside among the Mountains of the Morn; like the dragons, these demons make their lairs in caves that pockmark the cliffs: Quote On its way from the Mountains of the Morn to the sea, the Ash runs howling through a narrow cleft in the mountains. … In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow, TWoIaF The children also lived in caves: Quote no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves… AGOT – Bran VII King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves… TWOIAF – The Stormlands: Andals in the Stormlands In fact, the only remaining children reside in the cave of the last greenseer, and one of them said they have lived in these caves for thousands upon thousands of years: Quote The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. … “Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years.” Leaf, ADWD – Bran III Not only that, but their caves also have a place where skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling: Quote He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. ADWD – Bran III And Daenerys once found her dragon Viserion clinging to the roof of a pit like some huge white bat: Quote Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat… ADWD – Daenerys VIII So could those skeletons of gigantic bats in the caves of the children actually be dragons like those in the caves of the Shadow? The Shadow, which has a black river with blind fish: Quote Asshai is a large city, sprawling out for leagues on both banks of the black river Ash. The waters of the Ash glisten black beneath the noonday sun and glimmer with a pale green phosphorescence by night, and such fish as swim in the river are blind… upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness. On its way from the Mountains of the Morn to the sea, the Ash runs howling through a narrow cleft in the mountains TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow Just like there’s a black river with blind fish in the cave of the children… Quote The chamber echoed to the sound of the black river. A Dance with Dragons – Bran II Blind white fish swam in the black river… … “The river you hear is swift and black…” A Dance with Dragons – Bran III … the children who have great golden cat’s eyes that could see down passages where a boy’s eyes saw only blackness… Quote Their eyes were big too, great golden cat’s eyes that could see down passages where a boy’s eyes saw only blackness. ADWD – Bran III … which actually makes their eyes suitable for the dark and gloomy lands of the Shadow. Ghost Grass However, nothing grows in the Shadow Lands save for ghost grass: Quote … beyond the walls of Asshai little grows save ghost grass, whose glassy, glowing stalks are inedible. TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow So how can this be suitable for the children? Well, because ghost grass is likely their weirwoods of Essos. Because weirwoods choke out other trees: Quote … the heart tree had grown so huge and tangled that it had choked out all the oaks and elms and birch... ADWD – Davos IV … the weirwood that grows there is a queer, twisted thing whose tangled roots have all but filled the cave where it stands, choking out all other growth. TWOIAF – The Westerlands: Casterly Rock Just like ghost grass murders all other grass: Quote “Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.” AGOT – Daenerys III Ghost grass also glows in the dark, supposedly with the spirits of the damned: Quote It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. Which is like how the spirits of the children go into the weirwoods when they die: Quote “When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root … Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.“ ADWD – Bran III But not only could ghost grass be the weirwoods of Essos, they might also be the white walkers or Others of Essos. Because both the Others and ghost grass are pale as milkglass: Quote … the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. … Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny… A Storm of Swords (ASOS) – Samwell I … ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. AGOT – Daenerys III Ghost grass is also prophesied to cover the entire world and end all life: Quote “The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.“ AGOT – Daenerys III Just like the darkness and cold of the Others is prophesied to cover the entire earth and end all life, because the Others hate every creature with hot blood in its veins: Quote “When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest… Darkness and cold will cover the earth.” ASOS – Davos VI “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.” AGOT – Bran IV Finally, both of them are either found beyond the Wall in the North, or beyond the walls of Asshai in the Shadow. So could they also be found in the Shadow? Well, first we would have to connect them to Stygai, which lies in the heart of the Shadow. To establish this connection, we will use Melisandre. Why Do Shadowbinders Fear Stygai? Quote At Castle Black, when peering through the flames, the shadowbinder Melisandre of Asshai glimpses Bloodraven, who is a greenseer: A face took shape within the hearth. … A wooden face, corpse white. … A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled. ADWD – Melisandre I And this terrifies her so much that she shudders and even has traumatic flashbacks: Quote The red priestess shuddered. … Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” ADWD – Melisandre I Why did seeing a greenseer frighten her so much? What does the shadowbinder Melisandre of Asshai have to fear? Well, what do all shadowbinders fear? Shadowbinders are the most sinister sorcerers of Asshai, it is said. They alone dare to go upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness: Quote Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men. They alone dare to go upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness. TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow Yet there is but one place they dare not go, one place they live in absolute fear of: Quote The farther from the city one goes … until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow So one greenseer struck absolute terror into one shadowbinder at the Wall. Whatever lurks in Stygai strikes a similar terror to them all. Why Is Melisandre’s Magic Stronger at the Wall than Asshai? Melisandre also once thought to herself that she was stronger at the Wall than in Asshai: Quote My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. ADWD – Melisandre I So behind the walls of Asshai, Melisandre’s magic is strong. Behind the walls of the Wall, Melisandre is even stronger. But what lies beyond both walls? Well, according to Bloodraven, the dark places of the earth: Quote “Never fear the darkness, Bran. … The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. … Darkness will make you strong.” ADWD – Bran III Beyond the Wall lies the darkness of Bloodraven’s cave, where he is training Bran to make him strong… perhaps stronger than he would be beyond the walls of Asshai into the heart of darkness, at Stygai the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart: Quote … past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness. … perpetually in shadow, save for a few moments at midday when the sun is at its zenith. … Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart... “A place that is perpetually in shadow, save for a few moments at midday when the sun is at its zenith.” So surely Stygai in the Shadow is one of the dark places of the earth, such as Bloodraven referred to. Just like his very own cave. In fact, because of winter, the general location of the cave seems to be turning into another heart of darkness, according to Bran’s point of view: Quote Dark came early this far north. … Each day seemed shorter than the last… ADWD – Bran I The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. ADWD – Bran III (To clarify, Melisande is strong at the Wall and Asshai not because of the places themselves, but because of their proximity to what lies beyond them, in the Shadow Lands and the Lands Beyond the Wall: heart trees or greenseers.) Why Do Shadowbinders Wear Masks? In both places there flows a black river teeming with blind fish. In both places the days are short and the nights long. They are the dark places of the earth, and it is in such places where the strongest trees are rooted, and thus possibly the strongest greenseers … who strike fear into shadowbinders like Melisandre of Asshai. Shadowbinders, who supposedly hide their faces from the eyes of gods: Quote Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men. TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow But is it the eyes of gods or the thousand eyes of greenseers? Quote “I have been many things, Bran. … I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one.” ADWD – Bran II A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.“ ADWD – Bran III Who or What Is in Stygai? Now let’s address two issues one may have with this theory that Stygai is or once was a dwelling of the children and their greenseers. Stygai is a city with doors: Quote ..until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city It could be argued that the children had no cities and no use for doors. Yet this is not true. Before entering the cave of the last greenseer, Meera asked Coldhands if there was only one way in, and he replied: Quote “Is this the only way in?” asked Meera. “The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole.“ ADWD – Bran II Additionally, the children also lived in hollow hills: Quote the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills… AGOT – Bran IV Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Dawn Age the children of the forest emerged from beneath a hollow hill to send hundreds of wolves against an Andal camp… TWOIAF – The Riverlands the children of the forest vanished into the deep woods, the hollow hills… TWOIAF – The Westerlands the First Men strove against the children of the forest, rooting them out from their sacred groves and hollow hills… TWOIAF – The Reach: The Gardener Kings King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves and hollow hills… TWOIAF- The Stormlands: Andals in the Stormlands And in places like the Westerlands, there are half-hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills: Quote The Westerlands are a place of rugged hills and rolling plains, of misty dales and craggy shorelines, a place of blue lakes and sparkling rivers and fertile fields, of broadleaf forests that teem with game of every sort, where half-hidden doors in the sides of wooded hills … TWOIAF – The Westerlands Not only that, but their homes in the forest were referred to as “wooden cities” or “secret tree towns,” and the last hero tried to find them in their “secret cities”: Quote “Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.” … “For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities.” Bran IV, AGOT “They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns.” Bran VII, AGOT Thus it is plausible that Stygai is yet another one of their cities. Why Is Stygai Called the Corpse City? Because not only is Stygai called a city, it is called the corpse city. And Bran constantly refers to Bloodraven as a “corpse,” a “corpse lord,” a “grisly talking corpse,” and a “half-corpse:” Quote His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse… What skin the corpse lord showed was white… Bran II, ADWD In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse. … Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed. Bran III, ADWD However, Bloodraven is not the only corpse in the cave, so to speak. Because Bran actually saw more children, or singers, as they call themselves, in the same state as Bloodraven (Brynden): Quote He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. ADWD – Bran III So the children really do have a city full of corpses. A corpse city, just like Stygai. Additionally, the cave has chambers full of bones; it is home to the bones of thousands dead, littered with the bones of birds and beasts. And other bones as well, with skulls in niches carved from stone: Quote The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. ADWD – Bran II As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones… The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead … ADWD – Bran III With all these bones, the cave of the children seems like a necropolis: Quote The name stems from the Ancient Greek νεκρόπολις nekropolis, literally meaning “city of the dead”. Wikipedia Which is synonymous with “corpse city,” so it really is just like Stygai. So not only do the children have parallels to the ancient people from the Shadow, and parallels between their cave and Stygai in the Shadow, but the Shadow as a whole is very much a parallel to the lands beyond the Wall where the children are currently found. However, if they were the people from the Shadow, this would also answer several questions, such as: Why exactly did the Shadow people teach the Valyrians their arts? What is the meaning of a Song of Ice and Fire? How did the children help the last hero; How did he get dragonsteel? What is the Ending of A Song of Ice and Fire, and why was Valyria destroyed? But before answering these questions, we must clear up some misconceptions about the people from the Shadow, and also strike down the common strawman arguments against this theory. Nitpicks and Common Arguments Addressed For starters, the people from the Shadow don’t have to be the same people who built the fused black stones predating Valyria. As it’s established in the first book that dragons had two locations of origin, the Shadow but also the Jade Sea: Quote She had heard that the first dragons had come from the east, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea. AGoT – Daenerys III The Jade Sea being a place of twin fire islands, perfect for dragons: Quote Other Islands of Note in the Jade Sea, as Recorded by Corlys Velaryon in His Letters: Marahai, the paradise isle, a verdant crescent attended by twin fire islands, where burning mountains belch plumes of molten stone day and night. TWoIaF – The Bones and Beyond: Leng Which is also also near the isle Leng, where there existed another ancient people who could have tamed dragons as well but instead built the fused-black stones, especially since they built labyrinths: Quote No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people. … underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers TWoIaF – The Bones and Beyond: Leng And one of the fused blacks stones is a labyrinth: Quote Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. … its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock TWoIaF – The Reach: Oldtown I covered this topic extensively in another post: The Truth Behind the Drowned God. Therefore, since there are two places where dragons originated, there can be two distinct people who tamed dragons before the Valyrians. One who tamed dragons to build fused black stones, and another who tamed dragons to teach the Valyrians their arts. Furthermore, many readers like to say the ancient people from the Shadow were ancient Asshai’i — which doesn’t make any sense — as ancient Asshai’i’ already had a role in this event as historians: Quote These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow… Why would Asshai’i histories refer to themselves in the third-person as a people with no name? Why would they forget their own name? This theory unfortunately stems from the misconception that Asshai is no different from the Shadow. However, this distinction between the Shadow and Asshai is established in the very first book, in which Daenerys goes to the Eastern Market and distinguishes between people from Asshai, Asshai’i, and people from the Shadow, Shadow Men: Quote Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells. … She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and … even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany. AGOT – Daenerys VI Then, in the second book, we are introduced to Quaithe of the Shadow and Melisandre of Asshai — who are never interchangeably called Quaithe of Asshai or Melisandre of the Shadow. Thus we should not interchangeably refer to the ancient people from the Shadow as ancient Asshai’i. This misconception may have all started from this line in the first book when Bran looks at Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise: Quote He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. A Game of Thrones – Bran III Which has been misinterpreted to mean dragons were in Asshai, but if that were the case, then “Asshai by the Shadow” would have been hyphenated into one title — “Asshai-by-the-Shadow” — as it is in other instances. What is meant by this line is that dragons stirred in the Shadow, not Asshai. Asshai is more than likely related to and built by the Deep Ones, as it is greasy black stone: Quote ... the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it… TWOIAF – The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow And the other oily/greasy black stones share fishy motifs like a kraken and a toad, and are related to the Drowned God and people with a fish-like aspect to their faces: Quote … the Seastone Chair. The throne of the Greyjoys, carved into the shape of a kraken from an oily black stone... TWOIAF – The Iron Islands “The Drowned God shall decide who sits the Seastone Chair.” AFFC – The Prophet On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. TWOIAF – Beyond the Free Cities: The Basilisk Isles Not to mention that the greasy/oily black stones are “carved” and thus did not require dragons to make via melting and fusing stone: Quote the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone. ACOK – Theon II a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect… Unlike the fused black stones, which did require dragons and conversely had “no chisel marks of any kind”: Quote solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite. TWOIAF – The Reach: Oldtown With all this clarified, we can confidently say that Asshai doesn’t need to be related to dragons or people from the Shadow. What is the Meaning of A Song of Ice and Fire? Now, if the children are the ones who taught the Valyrians, how does this relate to the meaning of the title of the series? To begin with, George R.R. Martin has admitted that A Song of Ice and Fire has multiple meanings: Quote I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. That’s what I’m striving for here. Interview with the Dragon Which is interesting considering that the children actually call themselves the singers, the singers of the songs of earth: Quote … we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. ADWD – Bran II The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves… ADWD – Bran III Their magic is also called singing; their Hammer of the Waters, for example, was a song: Quote … the singing of greenseers that parted Westeros from Essos… Even if we accept that the old gods broke the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters, as the legends claim, the greenseers sang their song too late. TWoIaF – Dorne: The Breaking So obviously the singers must have something to do with the meaning of A Song of Ice and Fire. But how? Well, if their magic is called singing, and they created the Others, who are made of Ice, through magic, then the Others must be their Song of Ice. And this might be hinted at in the books, because when Bran heard them sing, he thinks their voices were as pure as “winter air”: Quote And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. Bran III, ADWD Which is odd phrasing coming from the author, as we all know that “winter air” is best signified by the Others, as they are the ones who bring the cold: Quote According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them… TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night Furthermore, after a conversation with one of singers about their extinction, this is what Bran concluded: Quote The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill. Bran III, ADWD The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill. This single line explains why they would have created the Others — because they themselves do not fight: instead, they sing. Therefore, they must have sung the Song of Ice to do the fighting for them. This would also answer the question pondered by maesters about the people from the Shadow: Quote Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did? TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria Well, because they were not men — they were singers, and singers do not fight and thus do not conquer. Now, the last greenseer once said: Quote “… for every song must have its balance.“ Bloodraven the last greenseer, Bran III, ADWD So surely even A Song of Ice and Fire must have its balance. This could then refer to the balance between the physical forces of Ice and Fire, between the Others of the Land of Always Winter and the Valyrians of the Land of the Long Summer. Because as the world book says: Quote The world has known ice in the Long Night, and it has known fire in the Doom. TWOIAF – The Glorious Reign So when the Long Night happened and the Others devastated the earth, this must have been an imbalance in the song of ice and fire; ice became too powerful and pervasive. In fact, since the children helped defeat the Others and end the Long Night, they must have agreed that the Others, their Song of Ice, became too powerful: Quote Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night Which raises the question: How did they restore balance to A Song of Ice and Fire? How did they defeat the Others? Well, if a Song of Ice started the Long Night, then surely another song would stop it. And sure enough, according to one legend in Essos, to stop the Long Night, a secret song was sung to bring back the day: Quote According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night And who better to sing this song than the singers, especially since all tales agree that the Others only started losing when the singers came into the picture, thanks to the last hero: Quote In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest… Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night But what was the secret song? Well, it must have something to do with fire, since that is the opposite of ice. And it must have something to do with dragonsteel, since that is how the Others were defeated by the last hero: Quote “I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.” AFFC – Samwell I And this is where the Valyrians come into the picture. Because both Sam and Jon believe that dragonsteel was Valyrian steel: Quote “Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?” “That was my first thought as well.“ Samwell I, AFFC Which has been all but confirmed by George saying the Long Night happened closer to 5,000 years ago, at a time when Valyria was rising (this is not spoilers, just clarification): Quote “10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” … So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built. [SOURCE INTERVIEW: WARNING, rest of article contains show talk) Now, since Valyrian steel was the reason the last hero defeated the Others, Valyrian steel must then be the reason the children created the Valyrians: because the children themselves did not know how to work metal or make steel: Quote “The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal.“ AGOT – Bran VII They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian… TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Dawn Age All they knew was magic; yet magic steel is exactly why the Others were defeated. This is why the Valyrians were created; so they could create dragonsteel capable of defeating the Others and bring balance to A Song of Ice and Fire; they are the song of Fire; they were created by the singers to be the antithesis to the Others. Or is it a coincidence that the arms and armor of the Valyrians is dark and black, whereas the arms and armor of the Others is pale and translucent? Quote Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black… ASOS – Tyrion IV Valyrian steel had a darkness to it… ASOS – Tyrion VIII It was alive with moonlight, translucent… The pale sword came shivering through the air. … The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. AGOT – Prologue The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip. ASOS – Samwell I Is it coincidence that George has called both the Others and Valyrians inhumanly beautiful? Quote “The Others are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman…” A Game of Thrones: The Graphic Novel. Volume 1 Targaryen on both side, Daemon had all the hallmarks of his house; the silver-gold hair, the deep purple eyes, fine features of almost inhuman beauty. So Spake Martin – December 24, 2005 And that they are respectively from the Land of Always Winter and the Land of the Long Summer? These are likely no coindences. Essentially, the story we are reading is the story of the singers and the effect their songs had upon the world, their song of ice, the Others, and their song of fire, the Valyrians. Together they make one song, and it is a Song of Ice and Fire. Because nearly every event in the world was somehow affected by the Others and the Valyrians, by their zombies and their dragons, by their Long Night and their Doom; it goes back to that line in the world book: Quote The world has known ice in the Long Night, and it has known fire in the Doom. How Was Dragonsteel Made? Having said all this, however; I do not believe the secret song that brought back the day was the Valryians, per se; I believe that secret song was the forging of the dragonsteel wielded by the last hero. Why? Because that secret song was sung in the Rhoyne: Quote Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night And the people of the Rhoyne were pioneers in metalworking; they were actually said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making: Quote The Rhoynar, who founded great cities along the Rhoyne, were said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making. TWOIAF – Ancient History: Valyria’s Children In fact, the Valyrians supposedly learned how to work iron from them: Quote And it would not be the first time that men learned of the working of iron from the Rhoynar; it is said that the Valyrians learned the art from them as well, although the Valyrians eventually surpassed them. TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals Therefore, if a blade of dragonsteel needed to be forged, the best place would be the Rhoyne. And it would be forged with help of magic from the Valyrians and the children, who would then bring it to the last hero. Because this is actually what the stories of the Long Night imply — they imply a correlation between the children and the dragonsteel wielded by the last hero. How Did the Children Help the Last Hero? How Did He Get Dragonsteel? For starters, we know the last hero went looking for the children to help him defeat the Others: Quote So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. AGOT – Bran IV In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest… TWOIAF – Ancient History: The Long Night We know he found them and we know they helped him — according to what Old Nan told Bran: Quote All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!“ AGOT – Bran IV We just don’t know how they helped him exactly. However, we later hear another part of the story — that the last hero slew the Others with dragonsteel, or Valyrian steel: Quote “I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.” How exactly did he obtain Valyrian steel, and how exactly did the children help him defeat the Others? Well, if we simply combine both stories, the simple answer would be that the children helped the last hero defeat the Others by giving him that Valyrian steel — because the last hero didn’t have dragonsteel before meeting the children, as his original sword broke from the cold: Quote One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. AGOT – Bran IV More importantly, the reason the children would have had Valyrian steel is because they were already in contact with the Valyrians, because according to my whole theory, they are the ones who taught the Valyrians everything they know. What Is the Bittersweet Ending of A Song of Ice and Fire? Now how would this theory tie in with the ending of the series? Well, George said the ending will be bittersweet: Quote I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. … All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge. Exclusive: George R.R. Martin Says ‘Game of Thrones’ Ending Will Be ‘Bittersweet’ But what not many people realize is that when he said this, it may have been a double entendre. Because in the books, he has Melisandre imply that ice is bitter and fire is sweet: Quote There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. ASOS – Davos III Therefore, if the ending to A Song of Ice and Fire is bittersweet, it could mean that the ending is something that happens to both the forces of ice and fire, to the Others and the last Valyrians. At the same time, however, this particular ending must also fit the more obvious definition of bittersweet. And what would be more bittersweet than the Others being defeated but also the last Valyrians dying, along with possibly the last dragons? Especially since this would also be a conclusion sought after by the children. Because if the Others were a mistake, and the Valyrians were only created to rectify this mistake, then the Valyrians must go along with the Others; by having the Valyrians die along with the Others, the children would simply be tying up loose ends before they themselves go extinct. Because just like the Others, the Valyrians caused great damage to the world; they conquered and burned countless lands, and even killed the gods of the river Rhoyne: Quote “The Old Man of the River is a lesser god … He was born from Mother River too…” AFFFC – The Queenmaker Legend claims that the clash began when the Valyrians netted and butchered one of the gigantic turtles the Rhoynar called the Old Men of the River and held sacred as the consorts of Mother Rhoyne herself. TWOIAF – Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River... Which are much like the gods of the rivers or streams worshipped by the children: Quote Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream... AGoT – Bran VII The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones that would one day become the gods of the First Men—the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. TWoIaF – Ancient History: The Dawn Age So clearly the Valyrians became out of control, just like the Others. Clearly the children would want them gone, just like the Others. What or Who Caused the Doom of Old Valyria? In fact, the children may not have only been behind the Doom of Valyria, they may have also been the ones who saved House Targaryen from the Doom of Valyria. To begin with, the Doom of Valyria sounds almost word-for-word like the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne caused by the children: Quote Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. … and an angry sea came rushing in. ADWD – Tyrion VIII Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in… TWOIAF – Dorne: The Breaking It could be that, although the children wanted the Valyrians gone, they still needed one family to survive and defeat the Others in the future. Thus, a greenseer of the children then sent a dream vision to Daenys the Dreamer to ensure that one family did survive: Quote But Lord Aenar’s maiden daughter Daenys, known forever afterward as Daenys the Dreamer, had foreseen the destruction of Valyria by fire. And when the Doom came twelve years later, the Targaryens were the only dragonlords to survive. TWOIAF – The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest Now it could be argued that the dream was sent by someone with a glass candle, and not a greenseer, as both can visit people in dreams: Quote “The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles.” AFFC – Samwell V “I could not come to you … except in dreams. … I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream.“ The last greensser, ADWD – Bran II This is unlikely, however, as Daenys the Dreamer, being a Valyrian, must have already been familiar with glass candles and could probably tell when she was being contacted through one. This dream that prompted her family to flee to Westeros must have then been perceived as something else entirely, otherwise they would not have acted upon what could have just been someone with a glass candle. It had to have been a dream from another source, a greenseer. Why Are the Others/White Walkers Marching South? By having the last Valyrians in the same continent as the Others, the childrens’ goal may be to have them kill each other in mutual destruction, tying both loose ends in one fell swoop, bringing an end to their songs of Ice and Fire, which would be the bittersweet ending of A Song of Ice and Fire. And the reason the Others are marching south could simply be because they are being manipulated by the children to do so. Just like Bloodraven manipulates events in the Seven Kingdoms, he might be manipulating events north of the Wall so the Others will march south and set in motion their path to mutual destruction against the last Valyrians, the Targaryens. Speaking of Targaryens, however; there may be clues they have actually been guided by the children. The Ghost of High Heart and the Tragedy at Summerhall If you know who the Ghost of High Heart is, you know she is somehow connected to the children and the old gods. She lives at High Heart, which was once the abode of the children and their greenseers: Quote Crowned by a grove of giant weirwoods, ancient as any that had been seen in the Seven Kingdoms, High Heart was still the abode of the children and their greenseers. TWOIAF – The Riverlands At only three feet tall, she may even be related to them, given their historically small stature: Quote The woman could not have been more than three feet tall. The firelight made her eyes gleam as red as the eyes of Jon’s wolf. ASOS – Arya VIII She has red eyes; and the last greenseer said red eyes are a genetic marker some children were born with, those gifted as greenseers or greensight: Quote The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. ASOS – Arya VIII Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. ADWD – Bran III Considering she has visions of the future through dreams, it’s likely she does have the greensight. But with Thoros of Myr saying the weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps, we can safely say the Ghost of High Heart is connected to the children and their old gods: Quote “… she has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.” ASOS – Arya VIII But how is she connected to the Targaryens? Well, before she was the Ghost of High Heart she was simply the woodswitch companion to Jenny of Oldstones: Quote “A woods witch?” Dany was astonished. “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing… A dwarf…“ ADWD – Daenerys IV Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. TWOIAF – The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V Jenny was in love with Prince Duncan Targaryen, and she often brought her woodswitch to the king’s court, even claiming her to be one of the children of the forest: Quote Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest. TWOIAF – The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V “A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.“ ADWD – Daenerys IV One day the woodswitch prophesied that the prince that was promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen, and so their father Prince Jaehaerys forced them to marry: Quote “A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.“ ADWD – Daenerys IV On the word of Jenny of Oldstone’s woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. TWOIAF – The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V To put this in perspective: someone connected to the children was given a vision by the old gods that the prince that was promised would be born from a particular Targaryen bloodline. This is interesting, as it is strongly suggested that these visions are shown deliberately; Jaime Lannister, for example, had a dream which influenced him to save Brienne, a dream he had after sleeping on a weirwood stump — and weirwoods supposedly whisper in people’s ears: Quote “A dream . . . only a dream.” Jaime stared at the camp around him, lost for a moment. “I was in the dark, but I had my hand back.” … his head was pounding where he’d pillowed it against the stump. … The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark’s heart tree. ASOS – Jaime VI Whatever the case, the woodswitch did practically help the Targaryens by giving them her prophecy born from a vision granted by the gods of the children. In addition, she was so close to the Targaryens, or at least to Jenny and Prince Duncan, that she may have actually been there when King Aegon tried to hatch dragon eggs at Summerhall: Quote “I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours.” ASOS – Arya VIII Her presence there to witness the potential rebirthing of dragons has many implications. She is essentially a proxy for the old gods and the children, through the visions granted to her. Her presence there must have meant something. Could she have been there to help the Targaryens hatch the dragon eggs? Like the children who may have once guided the Valyrians to harness dragons, could they have attempted to do so again through the Ghost of High Heart? It would simply be history repeating itself: Quote This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did). Ancient History: The Dawn Age, TWoIaF Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria, TWoIaF The children of the forest were, in many ways, the opposites of the giants. …They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian (what the smallfolk call dragonglass, while the Valyrians knew it by a word meaning “frozen fire”)… Ancient History: The Dawn Age, TWoIaF TL;DR: The children of the forest. The people capable of bonding with any beast that flies or swims or crawls taught the Valyrians to bond with and tame dragons. The people who knew and used obsidian for thousands of years taught the Valyrians the arts of obsidian. The people who had the ability to see across vast distances and visit people in dreams, as greenseers, taught the Valyrians to do the same, through obsidian glass candles. In short, the people who knew magic for thousands of years taught the Valyrians magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 The people and their name were lost to history. Blame it on the passage of time rather than word similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackSwan Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Always find that theory interesting and I'm planning on using it to show that Lightbringer = Dragonsteel = Valyrian steel. Also some quotes I find that fits well with that theory: « The things that are going north of the wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the ice and fire of the title. » https://youtu.be/GaPZGDlm2F4?t=293 « I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds. »https://winteriscoming.net/2017/08/24/george-r-r-martin-was-initially-against-including-dragons-in-his-novels/ « The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. »http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/ The Others and the Dragonlords are the embodiment of ice and fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said: Always find that theory interesting and I'm planning on using it to show that Lightbringer = Dragonsteel = Valyrian steel. Also some quotes I find that fits well with that theory: « The things that are going north of the wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the ice and fire of the title. » https://youtu.be/GaPZGDlm2F4?t=293 « I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds. »https://winteriscoming.net/2017/08/24/george-r-r-martin-was-initially-against-including-dragons-in-his-novels/ « The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it. »http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/ The Others and the Dragonlords are the embodiment of ice and fire. The Others are supernatural beings. The First Men and The Valyrians are ice and fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 My guess is that similarities between different parts of the world are intended as reflections or shadows of each other, but not showing a direct link - e.g. the shade of the evening trees contrasted with weirwoods. Even so, excellent OP, well-researched. On 11/3/2021 at 3:32 AM, Alabastur said: Well, George said the ending will be bittersweet: Quote I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. … All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge. Exclusive: George R.R. Martin Says ‘Game of Thrones’ Ending Will Be ‘Bittersweet’ But what not many people realize is that when he said this, it may have been a double entendre. Because in the books, he has Melisandre imply that ice is bitter and fire is sweet: Quote There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. ASOS – Davos III Therefore, if the ending to A Song of Ice and Fire is bittersweet, it could mean that the ending is something that happens to both the forces of ice and fire, to the Others and the last Valyrians. At the same time, however, this particular ending must also fit the more obvious definition of bittersweet. And what would be more bittersweet than the Others being defeated but also the last Valyrians dying, along with possibly the last dragons? Love this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Star Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 The Nameless Faceless Gods of the Children... Great post! I agree that the Children are likely behind both the Others and the Dragons, and I'd suggest all magic in ASoIaF. I think we see this reflected in the House of the Undying, where Men have managed to basically enslave a group of Singers, the Servitors, and their Weirwoods, the Trees of the Shade of the Evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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