Alternative to the red wedding

[Springwatch]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:17 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

Keeping all of the highborn guests at the wedding captive would have been far more prudent. Having these captives/hostages would have but a swift end to the fighting, because no northern or riverlands lords would have dared continue fighting if it meant their king or lord would be executed because of them. Murdering them all just made them martyrs, and inflamed resistance rather than quelling it.

The plan was to keep Catelyn alive, or at least Tywin thought so. But I bet she would have been married off to a Frey instead of being a standard hostage.

[Lord Lannister]

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The plan was to keep Catelyn alive, or at least Tywin thought so. But I bet she would have been married off to a Frey instead of being a standard hostage.

I could picture Walder taking a very basic form of revenge on the Tullys through Catelyn.

[Frey family reunion]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:07 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.

I mean this is the big problem for the Freys.  Their actions were pivitol in some of Robb's early successes.  So when it's time to mete out punishment to the losers, the Freys were going to be on the receiving end of a very harsh punishment from the Lannister controlled Iron Throne.

So they had to negotiate with Tywin.  And Tywin's idea of getting back in the good graces of a regime is fairly bloody.  Tywin believed that killing Rhaegar's children were necessary to get him in Robert's good graces.  So it wouldn't surprise me if Walder thought his bloody show at the wedding would go a long way in impressing Tywin.

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I mean this is the big problem for the Freys.  Their actions were pivitol in some of Robb's early successes.  So when it's time to mete out punishment to the losers, the Freys were going to be on the receiving end of a very harsh punishment from the Lannister controlled Iron Throne.

So they had to negotiate with Tywin.  And Tywin's idea of getting back in the good graces of a regime is fairly bloody.  Tywin believed that killing Rhaegar's children were necessary to get him in Robert's good graces.  So it wouldn't surprise me if Walder thought his bloody show at the wedding would go a long way in impressing Tywin.

It might have been a contributing factor, but I don't think it was everything. I think part of it was Walder Frey, who spent a lifetime nursing grudges, wanted to partake in a bloody orgy of revenge. He could've worked out a deal where he closed the Twins and declared for Joffrey. Riverrun and such would probably be out of the picture in that scenario, but Tywin isn't going to say... no you're not allowed to help us.

[Groo]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:30 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

Both of these together could work. But how do you force Edmure to marry Roslyn? She may not find favor in his eyes.

Have the wedding at Riverrun. Everyone was leary of going to the Twins but Walder was insisting on it.

[Groo]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:25 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) Bracken was with robb till the red wedding. He got a pardon. 

Was Bracken actually at the red wedding?

[The Commentator]

The revenge part can be satisfied later. What will be very hard to avoid are the fines for rebelling. The Frey’s are rich and likely to bear the largest portion of the penalties.  Walder and Roose had to win the war for Joffrey.  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 11/3/2021 at 4:07 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

Robb Stark chose love over honor.  Walder Frey chose material gain over honor.  Something like the R W was bound to happen.  Assassination of Robb, Edmure, and Cat was another option. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

On 11/7/2021 at 6:13 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Robb Stark chose love over honor

To be fair, it wasn't quite love he chose, but rather Jeyne's honour over his own. Obviously it doesn't change the situation, but I think it makes Robb seem a little bit less selfish than if it was just teenage infatuation.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

23 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Robb Stark chose love over honor.  Walder Frey chose material gain over honor.  Something like the R W was bound to happen.  Assassination of Robb, Edmure, and Cat was another option. 

Why do Stark haters keep coming back from their slumber? Please, just come out of hibernation when TWoW releases.

[Only 89 selfies today]

Walder was asking the same questions and found no answer. 

He should have never gotten in bed with the Starks.  He had a good reason to support his king and deny passage to the Stark host.  His fate was sealed when he made the bargain with Lady Catelyn because he became a rebel. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

If one considers it all with the information at the time of the deal, if I were Walder I would've probably never even let the Starks cross. Too likely for a Rains of Castamere situation. 

 

If I had gone through with said deal, I'd probably just close the gates or let them come in, close the gates on the army, butcher the Stark soldiers already inside and toss them into a dungeon to be delivered to KL. 

It's not like you can piss off Tywin Lannister and expect to survive. Not unless he did what he did (which was a pretty abominable thing to do, they're your guests after all, no matter what they did {to an extent}). 

[Quoth the raven,]

It all came down to fear.  Walder feared Tywin more.  He's not cruel like Roose and Walder.  Robb really pissed him off.  The Starks just crapped on his family and humiliated every Frey female.  The Freys paid dearly to help Robb and he shits on their honor. I feel like the red wedding was uncharacteristic for the Freys. 

 

[WhatAnArtist!]

6 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

He had a good reason to support his king and deny passage to the Stark host.

Frey haters - both in-universe and in real life - would have just twisted the situation into condemning the Freys for not being loyal to their liege lord, Hoster Tully/Edmure Tully, just like during Robert's Rebellion. The issue of loyalty to your liege lord vs loyalty to the king is one that many lords struggle(d) with, most notably Stannis. Which is more deserving of loyalty is really just up to the individual and their own values. I don't think there's necessarily a strict right or wrong answer.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Robb's mistake anyway was less to have married Jeyne and broken the marriage arrangement than having trusted and associated himself with the snakes that are the Boltons and the Freys in the first place, Roose was never loyal to the Starks and the North in the first place and betrayed them as soon as ACOK at the very least while Walder would have betrayed the Starks and the Tullys once he believed that their cause was lost and that he mad more to win by siding with the Lannisters.