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Highgarden's briar maze defence


Falcon2909

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17 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

You say this like it's some sort of gotcha when yes that's absolutely what they should do other than having an additional ditch or something. Unless you need that space for something you should absolutely not undermine your defence by providing additional cover from which the enemy can approach. They could probably start sapping right next to your walls and you'd never know it. You've completely missed my point about ramps, I didn't say they should build one I said if they can build them then cutting through a bush is not a particularly daunting task for siege engineers. 

Why would there be thousands of men lost in the maze? Again if they make a practicable breach they're gonna deal with the maze methodically and let's just be clear the idea of surrounding your walls with kindling to kill people trying to approach them is ridiculous and will absolutely harm your castle boxed in by fire more than it would the enemy. If the defenders start the fire the attackers will just leave because they won't be lost because they will have cut an approach into it and the fire's not gonna just consume it in minutes. Having it so you can see what they're doing, shoot arrows directly at them and most importantly sally out is incredibly more valuable than some sort of fire trap that will damage your own defences. 

Your talk about the strengths of Highgarden is just supporting my argument. I never argued about the defensive capabilities of Highgarden I argued about the benefits of a maze. The layout of the castle is smart, the presence of a maze is dumb. The area between one section of wall and another should be a killzone, filling it with bushes defeats that purpose. It's just some fantasy bollocks GRRM has come up with it's not practical, the reality is almost every major castle in ASOIAF is so ridiculously strong that you'd probably not even attempt to storm the fortifications but the maze isn't part of that. 

I see what you're saying, but I think you misunderstand the purpose and probably the construction of the maze. First, you assume the maze is nothing but plants. If there are more walls or some kind of fencing in there, it's not going to be so easy to cut through. And all while they're doing this hacking and cutting, they are getting pummeled from above.

I don't know what "sapping next to your walls" means, but if it means that an invading army will be able to sneak up to the outer wall without being seen, well, they're an invading army -- they've already been seen. And even if it is just a hedge, have you ever tried to cut down a hedge? 'Taint easy, especially when its full of thorns. And yes, burning it will also take some time, since it's a living plant, not dry kindling. And this essentially stops the assault so that by the time it resumes even more invaders have been killed from above.

As for cover, sure it might allow some men to hide, but arrows and pitch will still find their marks. It's a hedge, not a wall. The Tyrells are firing from a pretty high angle, and there isn't even any text that tells how how thick the hedge is. Depending on the season, it might not provide any cover at all. And yes, if thousands of men enter the maze, thousands will get lost. That's what happens in mazes. Of course, if you manage to cut through it, that advantage is diminished, but still, this takes time, with arrows and rocks and pitch killing invaders the whole time.

And when it comes to sorties, which is better, sending an armed force into the midst of an invading enemy? Or place them in strategic positions in the maze that you've plotted out so they can slay the men who are trying to cut it down? At the same time, I can't imagine the Tyrells have set things up so that they can't send out conventional mounted sorties under, around or through the maze. It's their maze.

So in the end, the maze is not meant to be impermeable, just strong enough to slow down the attack. It's the same purpose of a wall or a moat. As for ditches, spikes and all that, there is no reason these cannot be placed in the maze before the attacking army arrives, and this way, you don't have to turn your lovely castle into an ugly armed encampment until it's necessary. Meanwhile, the maze is pretty and pleasant in peace time and makes for a nice afternoon stroll.

Plenty of castles have mazes around them, both for pleasure and as a defense. Versailles, for one. Sudeley Castle in England. Bolton Castle, Balfourt Castle . . . And you also have to remember that in its entire 10,000+ year history, Highgarden has fallen only once. So even if the maze is not the key to its defense, it certainly doesn't hurt. 

 

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30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't know what "sapping next to your walls" means, but if it means that an invading army will be able to sneak up to the outer wall without being seen, well, they're an invading army -- they've already been seen. And even if it is just a hedge, have you ever tried to cut down a hedge?

Mining the walls. Sappers in medieval times would try to get a siege weapons up to the walls and a). either try to pull the rocks out of the walls or b). mine under the walls. If they took the second option, after building the tunnel they'd burn the supports holding it up and collapse it. 

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On 12/17/2021 at 11:45 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Mining the walls. Sappers in medieval times would try to get a siege weapons up to the walls and a). either try to pull the rocks out of the walls or b). mine under the walls. If they took the second option, after building the tunnel they'd burn the supports holding it up and collapse it. 

Yeah, that's a good strategy. But attackers can do that regardless of what's behind the wall, no?

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On 12/17/2021 at 1:13 PM, Trigger Warning said:

I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on the defensive benefits of a maze but I will point out that you basically just listed a palace, manor houses and one true castle which had its maze planted a few decades ago.

Yeah not gonna stop a lot of armies with a maze like this. You'd have better luck with the small vineyard next to it. Sieges can be a thirsty and hungry work

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, that's a good strategy. But attackers can do that regardless of what's behind the wall, no?

Point was you don't want a load of foliage close to your wall because it will help the enemy get nearer to it drastically cutting down the amount of effort that goes into sapping. There is no circumstance where I can see a maze being a better defence than an open killzone where you can easily see anyone approaching, shoot arrows at them and quickly sally out to overwhelm/damage siege engines and harass sappers as well.  

A siege is slow, if they can breach the outer wall they're gonna make a path through the maze as well because there's thousands of them being directed by engineers. Now if you need to sally out and get at them quickly to drive off some sappers or burn some siege engines, collapse a ramp etc then your own maze is just going to get in the way. 

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29 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Point was you don't want a load of foliage close to your wall because it will help the enemy get nearer to it drastically cutting down the amount of effort that goes into sapping. There is no circumstance where I can see a maze being a better defence than an open killzone where you can easily see anyone approaching, shoot arrows at them and quickly sally out to overwhelm/damage siege engines and harass sappers as well.  

A siege is slow, if they can breach the outer wall they're gonna make a path through the maze as well because there's thousands of them being directed by engineers. Now if you need to sally out and get at them quickly to drive off some sappers or burn some siege engines, collapse a ramp etc then your own maze is just going to get in the way. 

And, again, foliage catches on fire pretty easily and fire damages brick walls.

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46 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And, again, foliage catches on fire pretty easily and fire damages brick walls.

Exactly, in sieges they'd pile kindling against the base or even dig out holes to stick combustible materials in to break down the mortar and fuck the structural integrity of a wall. Even if they don't try and ignite the entire maze having a wall surrounded by bushes gives them an abundance of supplies and all the cover in the world to get in close and do it.  

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19 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Point was you don't want a load of foliage close to your wall because it will help the enemy get nearer to it drastically cutting down the amount of effort that goes into sapping. There is no circumstance where I can see a maze being a better defence than an open killzone where you can easily see anyone approaching, shoot arrows at them and quickly sally out to overwhelm/damage siege engines and harass sappers as well.  

A siege is slow, if they can breach the outer wall they're gonna make a path through the maze as well because there's thousands of them being directed by engineers. Now if you need to sally out and get at them quickly to drive off some sappers or burn some siege engines, collapse a ramp etc then your own maze is just going to get in the way. 

Well, like I said, it also helps defenders get up close to the attackers with bows and crossbows. In an open kill zone, attackers only need to defend themselves from above. A simple shield can do that. With foliage all around, they have to defend against all sides, even if they manage to cut a path through one part of it, which is also not that easy to do. And no, the maze will not get in the way of this because they know the way in and out.

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2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, like I said, it also helps defenders get up close to the attackers with bows and crossbows. In an open kill zone, attackers only need to defend themselves from above. A simple shield can do that. With foliage all around, they have to defend against all sides, even if they manage to cut a path through one part of it, which is also not that easy to do. And no, the maze will not get in the way of this because they know the way in and out.

The first thing any besieging army is going to do is launch burning projectiles at the briar maze or possibly light the exterior on fire on foot.

The defenders would be caught in a burning maze. It would be as close to hell on earth as they could find, and the fire will damage the walls and masonry used in the defensive fortifications. An open kill zone doesn't let you ambush people but it give you the ability to sally and assault enemy forces (e.g. sappers) and target them with your own siege engines and distance weapons. There are many well documented sieges where the defenders have done everything they can to clear suburbs and trees back from the walls of a city or castle because of the cover they provide, potential fires and other causes lost to history.

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, like I said, it also helps defenders get up close to the attackers with bows and crossbows. In an open kill zone, attackers only need to defend themselves from above. A simple shield can do that. With foliage all around, they have to defend against all sides, even if they manage to cut a path through one part of it, which is also not that easy to do. And no, the maze will not get in the way of this because they know the way in and out.

Yeah I’m not seeing it, unit cohesion and the ability to deliver a quick overwhelming strike and employ what is essentially defeat in detail is way more important than some convoluted plan where you run around the maze. Also I’m not buying that the garrison can navigate the maze effectively in the heat of battle from memory but it’d be ridiculous either way. 

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21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The first thing any besieging army is going to do is launch burning projectiles at the briar maze or possibly light the exterior on fire on foot.

The defenders would be caught in a burning maze. It would be as close to hell on earth as they could find, and the fire will damage the walls and masonry used in the defensive fortifications. An open kill zone doesn't let you ambush people but it give you the ability to sally and assault enemy forces (e.g. sappers) and target them with your own siege engines and distance weapons. There are many well documented sieges where the defenders have done everything they can to clear suburbs and trees back from the walls of a city or castle because of the cover they provide, potential fires and other causes lost to history.

The maze is not dead, dry kindling. It is living plant. Sure, it will burn, but not quickly and not evenly. And all the while that it is burning, attackers can't cross it either, so they will be pummeled by rocks, pitch, arrows and whatnot from the castle. Nobody ever said the maze was impenetrable, but like any wall or moat it slows the enemy down so that more of them can be killed.

An open kill zone did not stop Stannis' assault on Kings Landing, nor did it prevent the wildlings from getting to the gate at Castle Black. Nothing is foolproof, so to say the maze is useless just because it does not provide complete protection is silly. Like a wall, a maze is only as good as the men defending it.

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21 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Yeah I’m not seeing it, unit cohesion and the ability to deliver a quick overwhelming strike and employ what is essentially defeat in detail is way more important than some convoluted plan where you run around the maze. Also I’m not buying that the garrison can navigate the maze effectively in the heat of battle from memory but it’d be ridiculous either way. 

It's not convoluted, nor are the defenders running around in the maze trying to navigate by memory. They can run a long line of archers and bowmen out to the attackers, then have them retreat back up the line when they run out of ammo. They can run a long rope back to the castle, drop stones along the right path, have just one man at each intersection pointing in the right direction . . . Come one, these people are fighting for their lives, and they are not complete imbeciles.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It's not convoluted, nor are the defenders running around in the maze trying to navigate by memory. They can run a long line of archers and bowmen out to the attackers, then have them retreat back up the line when they run out of ammo. They can run a long rope back to the castle, drop stones along the right path, have just one man at each intersection pointing in the right direction . . . Come one, these people are fighting for their lives, and they are not complete imbeciles.


If GRRM has a siege at Highgarden and writes it like that I’ll accept it but until then I’m not gonna assume they’re gonna fight like it’s a tv show.

Like I said we’re gonna have to agree to disagree.

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The maze is not dead, dry kindling. It is living plant. Sure, it will burn, but not quickly and not evenly. And all the while that it is burning, attackers can't cross it either, so they will be pummeled by rocks, pitch, arrows and whatnot from the castle. Nobody ever said the maze was impenetrable, but like any wall or moat it slows the enemy down so that more of them can be killed.

An open kill zone did not stop Stannis' assault on Kings Landing, nor did it prevent the wildlings from getting to the gate at Castle Black. Nothing is foolproof, so to say the maze is useless just because it does not provide complete protection is silly. Like a wall, a maze is only as good as the men defending it.

Plants catch on fire without being dry and no one said open kill zones were foolproof. We just said mazes don’t work or are a fantasy affectation because they are. You’ll find no historical usage of them and the practice of clearing areas around the walls nearly universal. 

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's not convoluted, nor are the defenders running around in the maze trying to navigate by memory. They can run a long line of archers and bowmen out to the attackers, then have them retreat back up the line when they run out of ammo. They can run a long rope back to the castle, drop stones along the right path, have just one man at each intersection pointing in the right direction . . . Come one, these people are fighting for their lives, and they are not complete imbeciles.

“One man on top of the walls is worth ten below.”

- Tywin

dont see many characters sayint “one soldier in a bush is worth ten outside.”

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6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

@Trigger Warning

@Universal Sword Donor

 

One more point and then I'll bow out.

So the maze is no good because it provides cover for the attackers. And yet the attackers have to either cut or burn it down to get past it, creating the very kill zone that benefits the defenders. Still sounds like an effective defense to me.

They will burn it long before the use it as cover OR they will use the exterior edges as cover just long enough to light it on fire, either of which still affects the structural integrity of the stone, brick, or wooden buildings nearby. Wind is finicky, so there's a solid chance that the besieging army wouldn't even come near the maze in the first place or in small numbers. 

In short, again, basically nothing about briar maze makes it easier for a defender to actually defend Highgarden and almost makes it easier for the attacking force.

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