How to solve the Free Folks' problem ?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Most of them will die during the long night.  The lucky ones will stay dead.  The unluckiest will become wights.  The surviving will move southwards.  Integration is not the question.  

[Julia H.]

If the Wall comes down and the Others invade the North and possibly the South as well, Westeros will emerge from the Long Night with a considerably reduced population. It won't be a time for lone wolves but for packs. The survival of humanity will depend on how the survivors will be able to form communities and make Westeros habitable again. There will be large empty lands, and surviving humans (free folk and kneelers) may well end up living far away from their homelands. And even when the Long Night ends, real spring may not start at once. So, the knowledge of how to survive in these circumstances will be a valuable asset. But as the climate goes back to normal, the knowledge of farmers will be important again. Perhaps in the aftermath of the Long Night, humans may learn to appreciate other humans and perhaps they will be able to put aside their differences in order to survive.

Granted, cultures do not usually change overnight, but a Long Night will bring about important changes anyway. The wildling culture is defined by their lack of agriculture due to the climate they live in. (Similarly, the Ironborn do not sow mainly because their land is not suitable for agriculture.) Once the wildlings become land owners in a more hospitable climate and realize the advantages of having agriculture and trade, they will conform to the rules of a more advanced society soon enough. 

 

 

[Nathan Stark]

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on all the comments arguing that the freefolk should be sold into slavery, or that integration is impossible. Those commenters are missing the point of the series. Humanity must find a way to integrate, or they all die. There are good aspects to freefolk society. That is why we have Jon's ark in ASoS, to show us wildling culture in its complex diversity. There are awful and disgusting practices that the supposedly "civilized" people do south of the Wall, like the Lord's right to prima nocta. The Iron Born have people like Asha and the Reader, just as much as they have assholes like Euron and Balon. Somehow, all these diverse cultures are going to need to work together.

The Wildlings will eventually be tempered. The marriage between Alys Karstark and the Magnar of Thenn provides a template for the future of the North. Both groups of people will have to change in order to move forward. The Free Folk will have to learn to live peaceably alongside the southernors, giving up their more callously cruel custums like kidnapping and raping women. But those south of the Wall are going to need to seriously rethink the value of maintaining feudalism, a system in which 99% of people are treated like expendable trash by the high lords. I am on the free folks side on this: kneeling to a high lord because they have noble blood is a stupid system to have, and at least the free folk don't have that.

Either way, saying that the Free Folk are incompatible with life south of the Wall is to fundamentally misunderstand these books. It is a simple, easy answer to a complex issue, and George does not do simple or easy. Integration, in these books, isn't the impossible way some commenters imagine. It is the only way.

[WhatAnArtist!]

3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There are awful and disgusting practices that the supposedly "civilized" people do south of the Wall, like the Lord's right to prima nocta

Except that's outlawed, and the only lords that still follow it have to do it in complete secrecy because of how taboo it is. That's very different from the wildlings basing their entire marriage system on a literal rape culture. 

3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Either way, saying that the Free Folk are incompatible with life south of the Wall is to fundamentally misunderstand these books. It is a simple, easy answer to a complex issue, and George does not do simple or easy. Integration, in these books, isn't the impossible way some commenters imagine. It is the only way.

Just saying "Yes, integration is the only correct thing" is just as simplistic as saying "Integration should not be tried".

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on all the comments arguing that the freefolk should be sold into slavery, or that integration is impossible. Those commenters are missing the point of the series. Humanity must find a way to integrate, or they all die. There are good aspects to freefolk society. That is why we have Jon's ark in ASoS, to show us wildling culture in its complex diversity. There are awful and disgusting practices that the supposedly "civilized" people do south of the Wall, like the Lord's right to prima nocta. The Iron Born have people like Asha and the Reader, just as much as they have assholes like Euron and Balon. Somehow, all these diverse cultures are going to need to work together.

The Wildlings will eventually be tempered. The marriage between Alys Karstark and the Magnar of Thenn provides a template for the future of the North. Both groups of people will have to change in order to move forward. The Free Folk will have to learn to live peaceably alongside the southernors, giving up their more callously cruel custums like kidnapping and raping women. But those south of the Wall are going to need to seriously rethink the value of maintaining feudalism, a system in which 99% of people are treated like expendable trash by the high lords. I am on the free folks side on this: kneeling to a high lord because they have noble blood is a stupid system to have, and at least the free folk don't have that.

Either way, saying that the Free Folk are incompatible with life south of the Wall is to fundamentally misunderstand these books. It is a simple, easy answer to a complex issue, and George does not do simple or easy. Integration, in these books, isn't the impossible way some commenters imagine. It is the only way.

So how does one deal with the inevitable roving bands of raiders who pillage, rape, and kill the small folk who drove the Gift(s) to near lack of inhabitants? Even assuming 95% of the free folk marching with Mance are peaceful and integrate well under their own leadership, the thousands who don't are going to create a RL scenario in the north. That's on top of the conflicts that might grow between existing lords, new lords on the gift, and the effort to squash brigands over roughly half the north.

[three-eyed monkey]

Both Stannis and Mance have had to consider the question posed by the OP and tackle it in their own ways, and we can see their respective approaches.

Stannis wants to bind the freefolk to his realm. He's looking at the problem from a southern perspective with little knowledge of the freefolk beyond the typical stereotype. Essentially he wants to make them kneelers. This is why he insists that Val is a princess. He wants to marry her to his loyal Lord of Winterfell and seal a peace between the North and freefolk. He wants them settled on the gift and ruled by a lord loyal to him, a new lord of the gift, more or less slotting into the established feudal system.

Ned had considered resettling the gift and appointing new lords before but it was hard to tempt anyone so far north. The northern clans had abandoned the gift and taken to the hills because of wilding raids. The Umbers too have a long history of hatred with the wildlings due to raids. So it's not hard to see why Ned never got around to tempting anyone north. But Stannis does not have that problem, he has the settlers, he just needs to bind them to the realm.

In Stannis's ideal plan, Jon Stark would be his loyal Lord of Winterfell, Val the wildling princess would be Jon's wife, and Mance's son would be raised as a ward of Winterfell, while Mance, who was kept alive by Stannis for several reasons and who Jon says is the only man the freefolk will follow, would be the lord of the gift. (He did leave himself a loophole in the law for this purpose by burning Rattleshirt north of the Wall, beyond the laws of men.) Mance would keep the wildlings in line, and his son being raised as a ward by Jon would keep Mance in line, or so Stannis would hope. This is no different than how the rest of the realm is ruled. This might seem like a solution from his southern perspective but it won't work.

The main problem for Stannis is that freefolk won't kneel and if you force them they will rise again with blades in hand. They don't follow someone because of their bloodline or the sigil on their banner, they only follow those who have merit. They essentially vote with their feet and follow the man.

Mance is the man. He spent years uniting the freefolk into one huge host. In the process he made peace between several factions that were traditionally enemies. He should feel justified in thinking peace with the northmen is no more difficult and certainly achievable. One of the main reasons he succeeded in uniting the freefolk is because he presented them with a strong leader all factions could follow, removing several other potential kings that got in the way. This is central to his strategy as we shall see again.

His goal is to get his people south of the Wall and most importantly keep them there. Kings-beyond the Wall have gotten south on several occasions but all were defeated shortly afterwards by the Northerners. Mance knows he too must find a way to integrate the freefolk with the northmen if they are to remain south of the Wall. He doesn't want war, he says his people have bled enough already. Stannis is the major sticking point though. The freefolk will never follow a southron king with a queer god. Even the north is clearly not impressed with the idea of King Stannis. From Mance's point of view it would be much better if the north was independent and under the rule of the son of Eddard Stark. Not an unattainable idea given that the Starks had declared independence under Robb not long ago. The freefolk respect Jon, they will follow him, as will the north. Mance knows that the best chance of successful integration will come if Jon was King in the North. As such, I think we can expect Mance to align with forces that want the same thing. Stannis must be removed so that Jon, a leader both factions will follow, can take control. Ultimately Mance's plan will cost him his own kingship, but that element of self-sacrifice for his people is what makes Mance a true king.

Of course the assassination of Jon means neither Stannis nor Mance will see their plan fully come to fruition. Even if they did then integration would still be very difficult and would likely take several turbulent generations under normal circumstances. However, they don't need to succeed, not fully at least, they only need to lay the ground work. A key factor will be the existential threat of the Others. This pressure will eventually force the living to unite if they are to survive, not just northmen and freefolk but enemies all across the realm. At night all banners, cloaks and sails are black. This is a recurring motif that underlines the theme around unity.

And finally, another interesting aspect to this is the aftermath. The long night will devastate Westeros. The population will be greatly reduced. Great lords will fall. Great houses may become extinct. Armies will be destroyed. The political landscape will have shifted dramatically. And the survivors will have to rebuild. The question is will they have learned the lessons of the past? Will they rebuild the feudal system that creates smallfolk or can they build a system based on merit that creates free folk? I believe that will at least be the aspiration.

[Nathan Stark]

20 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Except that's outlawed, and the only lords that still follow it have to do it in complete secrecy because of how taboo it is. That's very different from the wildlings basing their entire marriage system on a literal rape culture. 

Just saying "Yes, integration is the only correct thing" is just as simplistic as saying "Integration should not be tried".

Prima nocta is established enough in Northern culture that the high lords feel entitled to do it even though it is outlawed. It is clearly not taboo enough to stop the Boltons or the Umbers, and possibly others in the North. Furthermore, this is only a single example. Arguably, beheading people for the crime of fleeing the Wall is pretty uncivilized. Rape culture and overall cruelty towards women is just as bad south of the Wall, too. There is also a fairly straightforward way to address the problems caused by wildling rape culture. Make it clear that kidnap and rape will not be allowed, and punish wildlings that are caught doing so. This is not an insurmountable problem, so your solution is in fact quite simplistic.

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So how does one deal with the inevitable roving bands of raiders who pillage, rape, and kill the small folk who drove the Gift(s) to near lack of inhabitants? Even assuming 95% of the free folk marching with Mance are peaceful and integrate well under their own leadership, the thousands who don't are going to create a RL scenario in the north. That's on top of the conflicts that might grow between existing lords, new lords on the gift, and the effort to squash brigands over roughly half the north.

Like I said, enforce laws that already exist by making it known that the Freefolk will be punished for breaking them. Your own assumption makes my point for me; 95% of of wildlings following the rules shouldn't be punished due to the actions of 5% of wildlings. I am confident in saying that the author would agree with me here, given the textual evidence. Given that the wildlings we see south of the wall in Dance are presented mostly as bedraggled, half-starved refugees, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the likes of the Weeper constitute a minority. 

The other problems you list are what I mean when I say issues like this are complicated. This happens in all refugee crises to an extent. Doesn't mean sending all those people off to die is a humane or honorable solution, just an incredibly lazy and self-serving one.

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Both Stannis and Mance have had to consider the question posed by the OP and tackle it in their own ways, and we can see their respective approaches.

Stannis wants to bind the freefolk to his realm. He's looking at the problem from a southern perspective with little knowledge of the freefolk beyond the typical stereotype. Essentially he wants to make them kneelers. This is why he insists that Val is a princess. He wants to marry her to his loyal Lord of Winterfell and seal a peace between the North and freefolk. He wants them settled on the gift and ruled by a lord loyal to him, a new lord of the gift, more or less slotting into the established feudal system.

Ned had considered resettling the gift and appointing new lords before but it was hard to tempt anyone so far north. The northern clans had abandoned the gift and taken to the hills because of wilding raids. The Umbers too have a long history of hatred with the wildlings due to raids. So it's not hard to see why Ned never got around to tempting anyone north. But Stannis does not have that problem, he has the settlers, he just needs to bind them to the realm.

In Stannis's ideal plan, Jon Stark would be his loyal Lord of Winterfell, Val the wildling princess would be Jon's wife, and Mance's son would be raised as a ward of Winterfell, while Mance, who was kept alive by Stannis for several reasons and who Jon says is the only man the freefolk will follow, would be the lord of the gift. (He did leave himself a loophole in the law for this purpose by burning Rattleshirt north of the Wall, beyond the laws of men.) Mance would keep the wildlings in line, and his son being raised as a ward by Jon would keep Mance in line, or so Stannis would hope. This is no different than how the rest of the realm is ruled. This might seem like a solution from his southern perspective but it won't work.

The main problem for Stannis is that freefolk won't kneel and if you force them they will rise again with blades in hand. They don't follow someone because of their bloodline or the sigil on their banner, they only follow those who have merit. They essentially vote with their feet and follow the man.

Mance is the man. He spent years uniting the freefolk into one huge host. In the process he made peace between several factions that were traditionally enemies. He should feel justified in thinking peace with the northmen is no more difficult and certainly achievable. One of the main reasons he succeeded in uniting the freefolk is because he presented them with a strong leader all factions could follow, removing several other potential kings that got in the way. This is central to his strategy as we shall see again.

His goal is to get his people south of the Wall and most importantly keep them there. Kings-beyond the Wall have gotten south on several occasions but all were defeated shortly afterwards by the Northerners. Mance knows he too must find a way to integrate the freefolk with the northmen if they are to remain south of the Wall. He doesn't want war, he says his people have bled enough already. Stannis is the major sticking point though. The freefolk will never follow a southron king with a queer god. Even the north is clearly not impressed with the idea of King Stannis. From Mance's point of view it would be much better if the north was independent and under the rule of the son of Eddard Stark. Not an unattainable idea given that the Starks had declared independence under Robb not long ago. The freefolk respect Jon, they will follow him, as will the north. Mance knows that the best chance of successful integration will come if Jon was King in the North. As such, I think we can expect Mance to align with forces that want the same thing. Stannis must be removed so that Jon, a leader both factions will follow, can take control. Ultimately Mance's plan will cost him his own kingship, but that element of self-sacrifice for his people is what makes Mance a true king.

Of course the assassination of Jon means neither Stannis nor Mance will see their plan fully come to fruition. Even if they did then integration would still be very difficult and would likely take several turbulent generations under normal circumstances. However, they don't need to succeed, not fully at least, they only need to lay the ground work. A key factor will be the existential threat of the Others. This pressure will eventually force the living to unite if they are to survive, not just northmen and freefolk but enemies all across the realm. At night all banners, cloaks and sails are black. This is a recurring motif that underlines the theme around unity.

And finally, another interesting aspect to this is the aftermath. The long night will devastate Westeros. The population will be greatly reduced. Great lords will fall. Great houses may become extinct. Armies will be destroyed. The political landscape will have shifted dramatically. And the survivors will have to rebuild. The question is will they have learned the lessons of the past? Will they rebuild the feudal system that creates smallfolk or can they build a system based on merit that creates free folk? I believe that will at least be the aspiration.

 This. I'm glad to see someone gets it. Moreover, your read on Mance Rayder is in my opinion 100% accurate. More to the point, establishing some groundwork for the free folk to live in the North is important, even if it doesn't pay off immediately. And you are absolutely correct about the need to move beyond feudalsim. You made my argument better than I did.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Like I said, enforce laws that already exist by making it known that the Freefolk will be punished for breaking them. Your own assumption makes my point for me;

This is fine to say on paper but is hugely problematic in a feudal environment, especially one as large as the North. The wildlings are being settled onto the Gift / New Gift, but the enforcement actions of rounding up the raiders will fall disproportionately on the Starks and the closest vassals (mountain clans, Umbers). The new "lords" on the gift will lack the manpower, equipment, and money to effectively patrol the areas against armed bands.

2 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

95% of of wildlings following the rules shouldn't be punished due to the actions of 5% of wildlings. I am confident in saying that the author would agree with me here, given the textual evidence. Given that the wildlings we see south of the wall in Dance are presented mostly as bedraggled, half-starved refugees, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the likes of the Weeper constitute a minority. 

Well that relies on the assumption that this integration occurs when the power of Mance's army has been smashed. Then they have tens of thousands of fighters, but even 3000-4000 or more raiders is a complete nightmare for the north. While I agree 95% of wildlings shouldn't be punished for the sins of the minority, you still have to be able to sell it to your vassals who you'd be relying on for protection of the smallfolk. It's not worth it to those lords to populate people on the gift, where they and the Starks get no income from the new land but they have to fight off depopulation, raids, and pay out for enforcement action on their own lands.

As to the number of fighting Wildlings after the battle, it's at least 600 plus 200 giants and 80 mammoths. That's nothing to sneeze at and its likely quite a bit higher.