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Southron Ambitions


Rondo

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Lady Dustin and Theon had a very interesting conversation in A Dance With Dragons.  She told Theon of a plot long ago by Rickard Stark and the Baratheons to potentially overthrow the Targaryen Dynasty.  Houses Stark, Tully, and Baratheon were going to form an alliance and it will be sealed by marriages.  Rickard, Brandon, and Robert were not the smartest of men but they would have known how this alliance would look to their king.  They were going to proceed anyway. The kidnapping of Lyanna was a countermove by the royals to foil this plot.  

What if George Martin were to confirm the existence of this plot to overthrow the Targaryens.  How would this change your opinion of the Starks, King Aerys II, Jon Arryn, and Robert?  Many of you, myself included, have already chosen our favorite families and this revelation may not change anything.  But I wanted to ask anyway.  I already like House Targaryen and I want to see Daenerys ruling Westeros.  A revelation of a plot would not change my opinion. But you, the reader of this post, may be neutral.  

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Lady Dustin and Theon had a very interesting conversation in A Dance With Dragons.  She told Theon of a plot long ago by Rickard Stark and the Baratheons to potentially overthrow the Targaryen Dynasty.

Do you mean this sentence? 

Quote

 "… but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals."

Yes what a plot that was:o

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26 minutes ago, Rondo said:

She told Theon of a plot long ago by Rickard Stark and the Baratheons to potentially overthrow the Targaryen Dynasty.

She didn't. 

 

Quote

But I wanted to ask anyway. I already like House Targaryen and I want to see Daenerys ruling Westeros. A revelation of a plot would not change my opinion. But you, the reader of this post, may be neutral.  

I'd be very surprised of such a bold and treasonous move, not going to lie. It's not that the Targs have ever been my favorite cup of tea but that's an unexpected backstabbing. Then again, I remember Aerys and Rhaegar again and...

Having in mind that the Southron ambitions is perhaps, with Jon's parent reveal blessing, the most popular theory in the fandom but unlike the former it has so many holes. I'd like to know why were four great lords so bad at planning.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Rondo said:

They were going to proceed anyway. The kidnapping of Lyanna was a countermove by the royals to foil this plot

I'd argue that given the ties among the Baratheons and Starks... The kidnapping would be only a causus belli. Robert, Ned and Arryn were already pretty airtight by then, I'm sure Aerys should have known that.

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I kind of doubt that Aerys was sane enough to put much together, but if Southron Ambitions did turn out to be true it wouldn't really change my opinions much.

I already disliked Brandon from the moment I read about how he rode up to the Red Keep (it doesn't take a genius to know that threatening the heir of a mad king who enjoys burning people alive is a bad idea). 

Rickard I already saw as an ambitious person, who wanted in on the power bloc (along with the rest of STAB). 

As for the rest of STAB, never liked them really. 

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1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Lady Dustin and Theon had a very interesting conversation in A Dance With Dragons She told Theon of a plot long ago by Rickard Stark and the Baratheons to potentially overthrow the Targaryen Dynasty.  Houses Stark, Tully, and Baratheon were going to form an alliance and it will be sealed by marriages. 

she didn't really say that. southron ambitions could simply mean that Winterfell finally wanted to be involved with politics. something that they didn't show interest in ever since the Dance if I'm not mistaken.

however, if a conspiracy like that would be unfold , I'd be delighted! Not that I want to see Starks or any other house as the bad guys or anything (arguably overthrowing only king Aerys isn't exactly a vile treacherous deed ) , I'd be glad to see that the sudden interest of 4-5 great houses ( Stark , Baratheon , Tully , Arryn , Lannister) out of the 7 in marriages and alliances was not something random and sloppy in the story.  

 

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

What if George Martin were to confirm the existence of this plot to overthrow the Targaryens.  How would this change your opinion of the Starks, King Aerys II, Jon Arryn, and Robert?  Many of you, myself included, have already chosen our favorite families and this revelation may not change anything.  But I wanted to ask anyway. 

that wouldn't change my mind about any of them really ( that is if Ned was in the dark with the scheming and plotting otherwise he would seem a bit of a hypocrite).  such detail would give them a new layer . as for why their alliances were completely obvious , you could say they saw Targaryens at their weakest with a mad king , only one adult heir , Dorne far away and  with Tywin Lannister linking himself to them through Jaimie and Lysa's marriage they had the upper hand.

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I don't think there was an open plot among those actors to overthrow the Targaryens until Lyanna was stolen away.

Interestingly, though, it seems that Rhaegar and other houses were possibly using the tourney at Harrenhall as a pretext to talk about deposing Aerys. Certainly Aerys thought so (due to Varys whispering in his ear); that's why he decided to attend the tourney. But Jaime's final memory of Rhaegar seems to support the notion that Varys was right in this respect.

And, this is not fully established yet, but there's a good chance that Rhaegar stealing Lyanna away was for protection against Aerys, who was seeking out the knight of the laughing tree in a storm of paranoia. 

That his act kickstarted Robert's rebellion and his own end is a tragic irony.

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Arguably, the purpose of the STAB alliance doesn't have to be inherently a succession plot. I think a lot of people have run with the theory in order to try and villainize the rebels and rehabilitate the Targaryens, as well as try to justify Lyanna's and Rhaegar's behaviour.

However, less malignant explanations of Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" could be 

A) To tie the North to multiple Great Houses in order to give it more political weight that is leveraged to increase economic and political investment in the North, to better ensure Northern prosperity. 

b) To provide a counterweight of powerful lords that can contain the increasingly erratic Aerys. It is not that long ago that Aegon V was going around trying to increase the rights and conditions of the smallfolk at the expense of the lords of the realm.  

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2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And, this is not fully established yet, but there's a good chance that Rhaegar stealing Lyanna away was for protection against Aerys, who was seeking out the knight of the laughing tree in a storm of paranoia. 

Like all theories about Aerys's reign, I tend to prefer the simpler narratives. Even with all the unknown, they are the more with less holes. Rhaegar taking Lyanna because of prophecy or because he fancies her, paints him like an asshole but at least it demonstrates that he didn't really care about the consequences of his actions.

Rhaegar carrying Lyanna "to protect her from his father" but instead of taking her to her family, taking her to Riverrun where there was to be a wedding between her brother and Cat, he could have said something. Instead deciding of actually taking her to a road trip to Dorne, thinking he was fixing something is so incredibly absurd it deserves explanation. Confident man, no matter how intelligent, can be blind to the obvious and Rhaegar was nothing but confident. Yet this alternative... Lol, one should have question what anyone saw in him that to think he was smart.

His actions scream kidnapping, which in turn scream rebellion. 

 

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I agree, though it could be a blend of the two ideas. Like, Rhaegar's pretext for Lyanna's consent to go with him was to hide her away, but he interpreted their meeting as a "sign" that his prophecy must be fulfilled, and so took her to Dorne rather than somewhere more sensible.

I'm just trying to put together the puzzle with the pieces that we've been given, and the plot against Aerys, and his seeking out the KotLT are some of those pieces.

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Grandpa's plans doesn't affect my opinion of Jon, Robb, Sansa, and Arya.  I already do not like them.  It is also unfair to hold them accountable for Grandpa Stark's plans before they were born.  I only hold them accountable for what they have done on their own.  A revelation of an evil plot such as that would give me more things to criticize Rickard and Brandon on though. 

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8 hours ago, Rondo said:

Lady Dustin and Theon had a very interesting conversation in A Dance With Dragons.  She told Theon of a plot long ago by Rickard Stark and the Baratheons to potentially overthrow the Targaryen Dynasty.  Houses Stark, Tully, and Baratheon were going to form an alliance and it will be sealed by marriages.  Rickard, Brandon, and Robert were not the smartest of men but they would have known how this alliance would look to their king.  They were going to proceed anyway. The kidnapping of Lyanna was a countermove by the royals to foil this plot.  

What if George Martin were to confirm the existence of this plot to overthrow the Targaryens.  How would this change your opinion of the Starks, King Aerys II, Jon Arryn, and Robert?  Many of you, myself included, have already chosen our favorite families and this revelation may not change anything.  But I wanted to ask anyway.  I already like House Targaryen and I want to see Daenerys ruling Westeros.  A revelation of a plot would not change my opinion. But you, the reader of this post, may be neutral.  

 

 

It would justify the executions of Brandon and Rickard.  Ned was also deserving of death if he had known and kept quiet.  Robert was the center of the plot and deserved execution.  The method chosen for Rickard was pointless cruelty but Stannis Baratheon does the same thing.  What Tywin did to the Reynes was way worse.  Hoster was more cruel to the Goodbrooks. 

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3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

It would justify the executions of Brandon and Rickard.  Ned was also deserving of death if he had known and kept quiet.  Robert was the center of the plot and deserved execution.  The method chosen for Rickard was pointless cruelty but Stannis Baratheon does the same thing.  What Tywin did to the Reynes was way worse.  Hoster was more cruel to the Goodbrooks. 

Not really. Even if someone is guilty of a crime, you can't convict them of anything without a genuine trial with actual evidence presented. 

Aerys' actions justified the rebellion regardless of if the rebels had previously considered getting involved in an uprising because the legitimacy of the Targaryen dynasty itself is based on its obligations to its lords, which includes providing them a fair trial before their peers. 

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Rickard, Robert, Brandon, and Hoster were disloyal men at the least and most likely traitors.  Every lord will punish traitors.  All of them deserved to be executed.  

Somebody in the employ of the King convinced Brandon to talk and the young man revealed the plot to overthrow the Targaryens.  That would explain why the King's Court decided to lure Rickard Stark to the capital.   It would have been better if an ambush had been prepared in an isolated part of the King's Road to make sure Rickard Stark dies.  Aerys wanted to show the people what happens to disloyal lords and burned Rickard.  It was an unnecessary gesture.  The deaths of Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna would have been enough to destroy the sinister conspiracy.  The deaths of Robert, Eddard, and Hoster could be arranged later and handled quietly.

 

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45 minutes ago, Laren Dorr said:

Somebody in the employ of the King convinced Brandon to talk and the young man revealed the plot to overthrow the Targaryens.  That would explain why the King's Court decided to lure Rickard Stark to the capital.

Didn't Rickard Stark go to the capital to seek justice for Lyanna's capture? I don't think Aerys was plotting with Rhaegar on that front.

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