Biggest hypocrite in the series ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Among the many characters present in the main story from AGOT to the sample chapters of The Winds of Winter, who would you say is the most hypocrital of all, doing the complete opposite of what he/she says or what he/she criticizes others for, or accusing others of things he or she is completely guilty of ?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

That's such a hard one, because the disparity between presentation/self-perception and behaviors is a major recurring theme throughout the story.

I would say that in terms of symbolic importance for the overall story, though, probably Tywin Lannister. He presents his aggressive overreactions to perceived slights as cold and rational realpolitik, loathes his son for deeds he himself indulges in, and describes unparalleled treachery and mass slaughter as killing "a dozen people at dinner." Overall, he just embodies the hollowness behind the noble lords protecting the realm social dynamic.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Jon Snow. We have his own thoughts. He would tell a subordinate to forget about his sister and think of duty. Jon did the opposite. He took the oath and did the opposite of what he was supposed to do.  

[Daenerysthegreat]

There are many 

1) Ned Stark- Judged Cersei for having bastards and warned her to get out of kings landing while himself having a bastard jon with wylla and cheating on cat. 

2) Jon snow- Broke his vows with ygritte yet killed slynt for disobeying a command. 

3) The usurper- Claimed to love only lyanna but slept with whores while she was alive. 

4) Sansa- Thought herself to be stupid but saved the life of dontos and acted like a queen during Blackwater

There are a lot more but these came into my mind. 

[SeanF]

The system pretty well requires one to be a hypocrite.  The knights are charged with protecting the women and the weak;  the lords boast of the noble deeds of their ancestors.  The great castles are centres of high culture.  But in reality, most of them are Dothraki with coats of arms.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

There are many 

1) Ned Stark- Judged Cersei for having bastards and warned her to get out of kings landing while himself having a bastard jon with wylla and cheating on cat. 

2) Jon snow- Broke his vows with ygritte yet killed slynt for disobeying a command. 

3) The usurper- Claimed to love only lyanna but slept with whores while she was alive. 

4) Sansa- Thought herself to be stupid but saved the life of dontos and acted like a queen during Blackwater

There are a lot more but these came into my mind. 

1) While not officially cleared up in the book, Ned Stark almost certainly did not have a bastard himself, and never cheated on Cat. Moreover, he did not judge Cersei for having bastards per se, but that she was cuckolding the king and putting her bastard son on the throne.

2) Jon killed Slynt because he defied a direct order from the Lord Commander, repeatedly. Jon's vow-breaking with Ygritte was more complicated, as he received a direct order from Quorin Halfhand to do whatever the wildlings asked of him in order to be among them and collect information about their plans. That's a moral quandry, not hypocrisy.

3) Bobby B is certainly a hypocrite. It runs in the family.

[Daenerysthegreat]

3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

1) While not officially cleared up in the book, Ned Stark almost certainly did not have a bastard himself, and never cheated on Cat. Moreover, he did not judge Cersei for having bastards per se, but that she was cuckolding the king and putting her bastard son on the throne.

2) Jon killed Slynt because he defied a direct order from the Lord Commander, repeatedly. Jon's vow-breaking with Ygritte was more complicated, as he received a direct order from Quorin Halfhand to do whatever the wildlings asked of him in order to be among them and collect information about their plans. That's a moral quandry, not hypocrisy.

3) Bobby B is certainly a hypocrite. It runs in the family.

1) I'm not starting the argument again. But Jon is neds son. 

2) It is hyprocisy, there was no part given to sleep with a woman. It's like saying a spy is allowed to make home calls while on a mission. 

 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) I'm not starting the argument again. But Jon is neds son. 

2) It is hyprocisy, there was no part given to sleep with a woman. It's like saying a spy is allowed to make home calls while on a mission. 

 

Slynt wilfully defied an express order.  I accept that for Jon, taking his head was a pleasure, as well as a duty, but it was justified.

Jon can be accused of exploiting Ygritte (and vice versa) but there’s no element of hypocrisy.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

13 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) I'm not starting the argument again. But Jon is neds son. 

2) It is hyprocisy, there was no part given to sleep with a woman. It's like saying a spy is allowed to make home calls while on a mission. 

 

1) Even if we let go the issue of Jon's parentage, it's not fair to say that Ned judged Cersei for having bastards. He judged her for the incest, for cuckolding the king, and for putting a bastard born of incest on the Iron throne.

2) That's an example of breaking his vows (at best, given his orders from Quorin). It's not at all hypocrisy.

"Hypocrisy = the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's behavior does not conform."

Failing to live up to an oath is not hypocrisy or defiance; it's failing to live up to an oath.

Jon's trying to escape Castle Black is a little bit better as evidence, as he does defy his Lord Commander there.

[WhatAnArtist!]

I think Tywin is the only correct answer. Everything else is just the standard Stark/Jon seething that Stark haters on this board like to indulge in. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

28 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think Tywin is the only correct answer. Everything else is just the standard Stark/Jon seething that Stark haters on this board like to indulge in. 

No that's quite wrong I think. Everyone has their own thoughts. Typin lannister is a hyprocite but there may be more. Hyprocisy can be done by anyone

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon Snow. We have his own thoughts. He would tell a subordinate to forget about his sister and think of duty. Jon did the opposite. He took the oath and did the opposite of what he was supposed to do.  

Jon Snow did not do it for Arya. No where in Jon's chapter does it say he is doing this for Arya.

Quote

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Quote

the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

The only two mentions of Arya. Jon does it because of his survival. If Ramsay descends on the Wall with the Others attacking from the North, Jon is essentially a dead fish. If Jon counterattacks Ramsay, and sends Tormund to deal with the Others, he has a better chance of surviving. 

 

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

There are many 

1) Ned Stark- Judged Cersei for having bastards and warned her to get out of kings landing while himself having a bastard jon with wylla and cheating on cat. 

2) Jon snow- Broke his vows with ygritte yet killed slynt for disobeying a command. 

3) The usurper- Claimed to love only lyanna but slept with whores while she was alive. 

4) Sansa- Thought herself to be stupid but saved the life of dontos and acted like a queen during Blackwater

There are a lot more but these came into my mind. 

1.) It's the matter of royal adultery. If Cersei had at least one legitimate child with Robert, she wouldn't be executed. But since it was Joffrey who was the crown prince rather than Robert's child, it becomes a matter of treason. 

2.) So many other brothers of the Night's Watch have broken their vows with prostitutes from Mole's Town. Besides, Jon was acting on Qhorin Halfhand's orders.

Quote

I will, thought Jon. I will see, and hear, and learn, and when I have I will carry the word back to the Wall. The wildlings had taken him for an oathbreaker, but in his heart he was still a man of the Night's Watch, doing the last duty that Qhorin Halfhand had laid on him. Before I killed him.

3.) This is pretty hypocritical. I agree Robert is like the epitome of a fuckboy.

4.) How is that hypocritical???????????????????

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No that's quite wrong I think. Everyone has their own thoughts. Typin lannister is a hyprocite but there may be more. Hyprocisy can be done by anyone

Typin Lannister? I'm sorry, don't take that wrong, that's just so funny. 

 

I think we have: Tywin Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Cersei, Jon to a small extent...that's all I can think of. 

[Mister Smikes]

I don't think hypocrisy is a major theme of the series.  I don't think anyone has come up with any good examples.

For example, setting aside the question of whether Jon really is Ned's son, I don't think there is any contradiction between trying to uphold moral standards, and admitting that one is not oneself a complete saint.  It takes more than that to label someone a hypocrite.  

For another example, gender-based double standards are not hypocritical.  And even if they were, Robert spends no time in the series preaching sexual morality to women.

It is hard to be a hypocrite when one is a complete moral nihilist, as so many of the characters (with a few exceptions) are.  

A hypocrite preaches morality without practicing it.  In AGOT, even those who practice morality do not tend to be particularly preachy.   And those who practice moral nihilism tend to boast of it, if anything.  Those who occasionally try to get a word in edgewise, by saying that morality matters, seem to be fairly sincere (even if not perfect).

[Hugorfonics]

Is Tywin a hyprocite? There's his Harry S Truman approach, that a massacre is better then war, and I kinda agree. A better question would be was the RW/Abomb ruthlessness worth it? And I'd again say yea.

Then ruthless Tywin hates the comparisons to ruthless Aerys, and I agree. Aerys thought he was untouchable, hence the ruthlessness,  while Tywin was ruthless to become untouchable. So, I don't think Tywin was a hyprocite,  he knew what he was.

Then there's queen, don't compare me to daddy. And, idk, both aren't that smart, both achieve tremendous feats, so maybe Cersei is kinda hypocritical. (Well she certainly was with Merryweather)

I'd also like to include Roose and Victarion, judging their kinslaying family and thinking of doing the same, plus acting like they're not monsters too.

Freefolk, or as we call them now, knealers.

 

But the number one hyprocite, hands down, Eddard.

Thou shall not kill children... not named Theon. The judgment that Eddard lays on Tywin and Cersei is the judgment Ned should lay on himself. (And kingslayer, who the fuck cares who killed Aerys?) The treatment of Theon is disgusting, unfair, and in line with Edddards contemporaries. There were many things wrong with The Ned, but his hypocritical stance on childslaying must rest on top

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

From the main, so called good, characters is definitely Dany. She kills children, she gets profit from people who sell themselves to slavery to save their lives from her and while she has told that when you leave your house to save your life you lose your house, somehow she claims that Westeros is her house. Just naming a few.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is Tywin a hyprocite? There's his Harry S Truman approach, that a massacre is better then war, and I kinda agree. A better question would be was the RW/Abomb ruthlessness worth it? And I'd again say yea.

Then ruthless Tywin hates the comparisons to ruthless Aerys, and I agree. Aerys thought he was untouchable, hence the ruthlessness,  while Tywin was ruthless to become untouchable. So, I don't think Tywin was a hyprocite,  he knew what he was.

I have my own issues with Truman's decision to use the atom bomb (twice) but that's a whole other conversation. 

Tywin was absolutely a hypocrite, in more ways than one. He stresses loyalty to family above all else, when he's perfectly happy to sacrifice family members that don't match his standards. He also gives this big lecture to Joffrey about not holding grudges and allowing beaten enemies to bend the knee and be allowed to stand up again, when he never forgave Tyrion for being born and "killing" his wife. He's  been blatantly ignorant of Cersei and Jaime's incest for years, even when Joanna caught wind of it when they were kids. Tywin also loathes Tyrion's habit of hiring sex workers when he himself does the same thing, to the point that he had a secret passageway built to a brothel from the Red Keep. And he can lie about it all he wants, I don't doubt for a second that he sent Gregor Clegane after Elia and the children because he knew who Gregor was, and he remembered that Elia was the one who Rhaegar married instead of Cersei, and he also remembered Aerys' comments about Cersei's - and thus Tywin's - unworthiness of Rhaegar. 

I'm sure there are more examples, but those come to mind.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is Tywin a hyprocite? There's his Harry S Truman approach, that a massacre is better then war, and I kinda agree. A better question would be was the RW/Abomb ruthlessness worth it? And I'd again say yea.

Then ruthless Tywin hates the comparisons to ruthless Aerys, and I agree. Aerys thought he was untouchable, hence the ruthlessness,  while Tywin was ruthless to become untouchable. So, I don't think Tywin was a hyprocite,  he knew what he was.

Then there's queen, don't compare me to daddy. And, idk, both aren't that smart, both achieve tremendous feats, so maybe Cersei is kinda hypocritical. (Well she certainly was with Merryweather)

I'd also like to include Roose and Victarion, judging their kinslaying family and thinking of doing the same, plus acting like they're not monsters too.

Freefolk, or as we call them now, knealers.

 

But the number one hyprocite, hands down, Eddard.

Thou shall not kill children... not named Theon. The judgment that Eddard lays on Tywin and Cersei is the judgment Ned should lay on himself. (And kingslayer, who the fuck cares who killed Aerys?) The treatment of Theon is disgusting, unfair, and in line with Edddards contemporaries. There were many things wrong with The Ned, but his hypocritical stance on childslaying must rest on top

Different circumstances.  Child or not, Theon is a hostage.  And, he is not an infant.  Bear in mind that teenagers are deemed adults for most purposes in this world. If you’re old enough to bear arms, you’re old enough to be put to death.

Jon Snow, Daenerys, Robb Stark, Joffrey are all considered legitimate targets by their enemies, despite being teenagers.

[Odej]

Besides Tywin, when I think about hypocrites characters in asoiaf I always remember this moment in ASOS:

"It is every man's duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false," Stannis declared in a tone that brooked no argument.

A desparate folly took hold of Davos, a recklessness akin to madness. "As you remained loyal to Aerys when your brother raised his banners?" he blurted.

[The Jingo]

Lyanna Stark. 

Complains that Robert is sleeping around (even though he's taken vows to nobody), and then turns around and enables Rhaegar to cheat on his wife (who he has taken vows to).