Biggest hypocrite in the series ?

[Daenerysthegreat]

54 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Well, it wouldn't, because Ned gave her a warning to leave and take her children while she still could. That's.... the entire reason why he warned her, to make sure they could escape without being harmed.

Have we even read the same books....?

We have we just have different thoughts on the matter. 

I think so people don't understand the risk of having a child with another man for cersei. Suppose she had a son steffon with the usurper and later had her bastards, ned stark would still judge her guilty. 

I will give you an example(I think I have done this before but I'll do it again). 

A proud Lord gives a warning to a queen to run away or else he and the new king will murder her and her children. Is the proud Lord a good person for doing this? 

 

[The Jingo]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, Robert is a big fat hypocrite. But don't you know the difference between lust and love??

I've seen this posted a lot, but when has Robert ever been a hypocrite?

We have no examples of Robert shaming women for promiscuity.

At best, you could argue something like Robert thought it was okay for him to sow his oats but not okay for Lyanna. But even that is nonsense because Robert didn't wage a rebellion based on the idea that Rhaegar got dat nut before he could. No, Robert revolted because he thought Rhaegar was a rapist. 

[The Jingo]

2 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

We have we just have different thoughts on the matter. 

I think so people don't understand the risk of having a child with another man for cersei. Suppose she had a son steffon with the usurper and later had her bastards, ned stark would still judge her guilty. 

As he should. Cersei's crime is not "having bastards" but attempting to commit treasonous fraud and institute her bastards in the line of succession. 

Quote

I will give you an example(I think I have done this before but I'll do it again). 

A proud Lord gives a warning to a queen to run away or else he and the new king will murder her and her children. Is the proud Lord a good person for doing this? 

Yes. She has committed treason and the sentence for treason is death. Quite frankly, warning her is more than she deserves. The only reason that you should even consider doing that is the possibility that the children might be associated with that crime. 

[Daeron the Daring]

I don't think people realise that it ain't necesarilly hypocricy when you are obedient. If say Ned had to execute Theon, I believe he would've, but that doesn't mean he is a hypocrite, because he's publicly against childmurder. When your duty confronts your beliefs, and you decide to act against your beliefs due to your given duty, I don't think that's hypocricy. In Ned's case, it is more of a hypocricy that he says to Bran that "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword", whereas he doesn't object about executioners, not even to Robert. One can argue that, based on Ned's belief, he shouldn't even execute the deserter, since he executes him in the name of Robert. But turning back to contradiction, are Aerys' kingsguard hypocrites because they were loyal to their oath and decided not to act against it, altough they knew what he's doing is wrong? 

But someone ain't necesarilly bad for being a hypocrite. In today's world, every leader is one. Approximately no major politician fights for a given human right or anything similar because he/she believes in it, but because it directly benefits them. Sad but true. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't think people realise that it ain't necesarilly hypocricy when you are obedient. If say Ned had to execute Theon, I believe he would've, but that doesn't mean he is a hypocrite, because he's publicly against childmurder. When your duty confronts your beliefs, and you decide to act against your beliefs due to your given duty, I don't think that's hypocricy. In Ned's case, it is more of a hypocricy that he says to Bran that "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword", whereas he doesn't object about executioners, not even to Robert. One can argue that, based on Ned's belief, he shouldn't even execute the deserter, since he executes him in the name of Robert. But turning back to contradiction, are Aerys' kingsguard hypocrites because they were loyal to their oath and decided not to act against it, altough they knew what he's doing is wrong? 

But someone ain't necesarilly bad for being a hypocrite. In today's world, every leader is one. Approximately no major politician fights for a given human right or anything similar because he/she believes in it, but because it directly benefits them. Sad but true. 

Yes, I agree that some commenters here are using "hypocrisy" rather liberally. And also that a big part of the story is to explore various ways in which duties, oaths, and loyalties can conflict with one another, i.e., another variation of the human heart in conflict with itself, not to mention a more systematic critique of the culture (i.e., good people can perpetuate evil without even realizing it). All that said, it's still pretty clear that GRRM wrote Tywin to be a massive hypocrite.

[norwaywolf123]

17 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't know if Tywin is the biggest hypocrite in ASoIaF. Perhaps the most successful one. 

For me I'd have to say Robert Baratheon. The guy has no problems whoring it around but is so in love with Lyanna he has to start a war for her. He condemns the actions of the mad king but has no problem with the slaughter of Elia's children or sending assassins after the thirteen year old Dany. He claims the throne but then has zero interest in making the kingdom a better place, instead opting to satisfy his hedonism. 

The catalyst for Robert's rebellion was Aerys demanding Robert and Ned's heads. Jon Arryn refused, and instead raised his banners while Eddard and Robert went to raise their own banners. This catalyst was itself preceded by the kidnapping/elopement of Lyanna, killing and imprisonment of Brandon's party, and burning of Rickard Stark. In the end i don't think Lyanna was the cause, but rather a catalyst for chain of events that led to Robert's rebellion.

[Lord Lannister]

4 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

The catalyst for Robert's rebellion was Aerys demanding Robert and Ned's heads. Jon Arryn refused, and instead raised his banners while Eddard and Robert went to raise their own banners. This catalyst was itself preceded by the kidnapping/elopement of Lyanna, killing and imprisonment of Brandon's party, and burning of Rickard Stark. In the end i don't think Lyanna was the cause, but rather a catalyst for chain of events that led to Robert's rebellion.

Oh I agree it was a domino effect. Lyanna's kidnapping was the first one. Probably the point of no return was the execution of the Starks. Though to be honest a rebellion against the Mad King in some form was inevitable. Even Rhaegar was plotting against him, though the Rebellion happened before his half hearted attempts could take fruit.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

17 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't know if Tywin is the biggest hypocrite in ASoIaF. Perhaps the most successful one. 

For me I'd have to say Robert Baratheon. The guy has no problems whoring it around but is so in love with Lyanna he has to start a war for her. He condemns the actions of the mad king but has no problem with the slaughter of Elia's children or sending assassins after the thirteen year old Dany. He claims the throne but then has zero interest in making the kingdom a better place, instead opting to satisfy his hedonism. 

That's very wrong, Robert may have loved Lyanna but he has never lied or tried to hide his womanizing ways nor ever criticized anyone else for whoring or seducing many women. 

Also he rebelled because Aerys had ordered his and Ned's deaths without any trial or proof, right after having cruelly murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark after they reclaimed justice for Lyanna's abduction, so he was perfectly and completely justified into his rebellion. 

[The Commentator]

A lot of the characters will come across as hypocrites. We are privy to their thoughts and they see the world in such a way where they are right. They think about morals and ethics but when those are challenged by the heart, many follow their feelings. The result is almost always their failure. Robb was the worst rule breaker on his side. He killed Karstark while letting Cat unpunished.  His double-standards made him bad at ruling. 

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Moraine Sedai already said him, fyi. 

Very well.  I will nominate Lord Tywin. He was admonishing Tyrion and sleeping with Shae in the background.  

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I don't think he has any. 

Rodrik Arryn married Daella Targaryen, but they only had the one daughter who married Viserys I. 

Rhaegel Targaryen married Alys Arryn, but two of their children died childless and the last one married the Brightflame. 

I don't think there are any other marriages. So the Targs had Arryn blood but not the other way around. 

Jon Snow I meant lol

20 hours ago, frenin said:

When does Ned ever kill child Theon??

He's prepared to, and everyone around him thinks he's capable of it

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned literally dooms himself trying to save Lannisters bastards of incest. Does that strike you as a man that would kill Theon??  Or do you just want to shit on him...

I want say he's a hypocrite 

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Absolutely everyone in Westeros.

Not Robert. Maybe Tyrion? 

It's a little hypocritical, Neds a rebel, a traitor and very judgmental that Jaime finished his war.

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert's his brother.

He is not.

19 hours ago, frenin said:

Westeros is a tyranny.

So why did Ned go south man? How are you gonna kick a dragon off of its perch to replace it with another beast, and then get gassed when it eats all your livestock 

19 hours ago, frenin said:

And it was Stannis's right.

It was not

19 hours ago, frenin said:

???? Bro just say you don't like the man.

That's rude

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Laren Dorr said:

Very well.  I will nominate Lord Tywin. He was admonishing Tyrion and sleeping with Shae in the background.  

Look around you, my lord. 

Did someone already say Cersei? idr

[Raven Princling]

Tywin, Robert Baratheon and Daenerys.

[The Jingo]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon Snow I meant lol

1) He has questionable legitimacy. We have no genuine ironclad proof that he's anything but a bastard, and so would have no rights to inherit anything. 

2) The raison d'être of the rebellion was that Aerys' and Rhaegar's crimes were gross tyranny of such a degree that they had no right to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Aerys' entire lineage was deemed as attainted. Robert became king not because he was some guy with Targaryen blood but because he had the most senior claim once Aerys' line was ruled out.

Jon Snow as the son of Rhaegar and grandson of Aerys would have no legal claim to the throne at all even if he was trueborn given the justifications for the rebellion.

3) More practically Robert won the Seven Kingdoms at the Trident with his warhammer. He was a victorious conqueror, well-loved by those who fought under his banner. He was not going to be set aside for the infant grandson of the man they just waged a war to overthrow.

 

[Daenerysthegreat]

On 11/9/2021 at 5:30 AM, Laren Dorr said:

Jon

Claimed to be rhaegar’s best friend and loved him yet did nothing to help his siblings in exile.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He's prepared to, and everyone around him thinks he's capable of it

As much as he's prepared to kill Lannister bastards.

It doesn't matter what everyone thought, we have the privilege of having his Pov.

 

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I want say he's a hypocrite 

How so??

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not Robert. Maybe Tyrion? 

It's a little hypocritical, Neds a rebel, a traitor and very judgmental that Jaime finished his war

Indeed, everyone but Robert.

It's not hypocritical, Kingsguards are judged differently. Which is why Jaime is so despised.

And Jaime didn't just rebel, as far as everyone knows, he jumped ship the very last minute.

 

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He is not.

No, he's someone he consider to be closer than his own brothers.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So why did Ned go south man? How are you gonna kick a dragon off of its perch to replace it with another beast, and then get gassed when it eats all your livestock

Are you arguing that changing a monarch implies that all rules are then on void and no order should be implemented?? That the only solution for daring challenge the status quo should rightfully be anarchy??

 

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was not

It very much was.

 

 

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's rude

Fair enough, my bad.

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't think people realise that it ain't necesarilly hypocricy when you are obedient. If say Ned had to execute Theon, I believe he would've, but that doesn't mean he is a hypocrite, because he's publicly against childmurder. When your duty confronts your beliefs, and you decide to act against your beliefs due to your given duty, I don't think that's hypocricy. In Ned's case, it is more of a hypocricy that he says to Bran that "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword", whereas he doesn't object about executioners, not even to Robert. One can argue that, based on Ned's belief, he shouldn't even execute the deserter, since he executes him in the name of Robert. But turning back to contradiction, are Aerys' kingsguard hypocrites because they were loyal to their oath and decided not to act against it, altough they knew what he's doing is wrong? 

But someone ain't necesarilly bad for being a hypocrite. In today's world, every leader is one. Approximately no major politician fights for a given human right or anything similar because he/she believes in it, but because it directly benefits them. Sad but true. 

Well, they may well believe in it, but they’re unlikely to fight for it, unless there’s advantage.

Charges of hypocrisy are made too frequently, by people who divide motives into either pure altruism, or pure selfishness, without acknowledging there’s a lot of enlightened self-interest in the middle. 

People in public life have to compromise their beliefs, or they get nowhere.  People who are uncompromising remain on the fringes.

Ned would have executed Theon if he had to, and he’d have hated it.  Jon would have executed wildling children if he had to, and he’d have hated it.  It makes neither man a hypocrite.  Sometimes, one’s position requires one to perform vile tasks.

[broken one]

On 11/8/2021 at 6:20 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Tyrion Lannister

Could you elaborate on this, please? Because at the moment I cannot recall anything outstandingly hypocrytical about him.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Balon Greyjoy might be a strong candidate too,with him frequently criticizing Theon for his shortcomings even though Theon inherited them from him and that in terms of intelligence and planning capacities he has no room to talk, also for someone obsessed by the Old Way and who supposely hates weakness Balon didn't even lift a finger himself and never left Pyke during both of his rebellions leaving his children and brothers to do all the leading and fighting in his stead, and for someone so much for independance and kingship he's quick to teach his daughter about the value of bending the knee.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Robb Stark and Jon Snow. Oathbreakers the both of them.