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Biggest hypocrite in the series ?


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5 hours ago, broken one said:

Could you elaborate on this, please? Because at the moment I cannot recall anything outstandingly hypocrytical about him.

Really? The first thing that comes to my mind is his hypocrisy in regards to looks. Tyrion hates being judged for his stature/looks/disability. Yet he judges women and their value only by their looks (and social class of course). Only the prettiest women for him while he thinks women of average looks, with disabilities etc. are beneath him and not worth his notice.

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5 hours ago, broken one said:

Could you elaborate on this, please? Because at the moment I cannot recall anything outstandingly hypocrytical about him.

He hates his father for making him rape Tysha, but then proceeds to do the same in Essos, along with threatening to strangle Illyrio's bedslave. Though, this is probably one of the weaker ones and I do understand that he was a bit ....cracked in the head. 

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Oh and the late Walder Frey, who keeps complaning about the disrespect and slights he receives and makes such a big case of Robb breaking his betrothal with his daughter despite being one of the most disloyal, dishonorable and treacherous vassals ever who has never done or accomplished anything to deserve respect, forced the betrothal itself under dishonorable circumstances and is the greatest oathbreaker in all the Seven Kingdoms.

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On 11/8/2021 at 6:31 PM, Hugorfonics said:

That's another Eddard hypocrisy thing. Actually by far my biggest pet peeve with The Ned (and most asoiaf folk, but they don't have pull like Eddard)

Why do you follow a fool like Robert? Why do you want to hand the realm to a tyrant like Stannis? Why are you hesitant to destroy Tywin?

Your the fucking Hand, use it! You made Robert! You took KL! And now you don't wanna be a traitor to some archaic ass laws despite being a traitor in the past? Well too bad, Jon Snow says hi!

Such a hypocrite, a sad hypocrite.

Ned and all of the lords and their families are able to live in harmony because of rules. Ned followed his friend because he believed in him. But the heart can lie and lead to cloudy thinking. Love and friendship at first. He continued to follow Robert because of the rules.  A hypocrite is a complicated person. You just hope the hypocrite part doesn’t kick in during a big moment. Hoster Tully was a hypocrite but the insults were kept social. Walder was not upset enough to go to battle.  Consistent person is better but less drama happens.

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19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

1) He has questionable legitimacy. We have no genuine ironclad proof that he's anything but a bastard, and so would have no rights to inherit anything. 

Fair enough

19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

) The raison d'être of the rebellion was that Aerys' and Rhaegar's crimes were gross tyranny of such a degree that they had no right to rule the Seven Kingdoms

That's never stated.

For Eddeard, sure. Dude murked the hell outta his family. But the rest? Jon Arryn chose honor and duty, ok. But Hoster took advantage of the termoil, pimped out his daughters and became an extremely powerful lord. Robert, well he was done dirty, but in no world is eloping while engaged gross treason.

I wish it was stated, it's mind boggling to me to dethrone a king and then not place any limit on his absolutness. (Robert desperately wanted to be king though and just like Renly not a half ass king. Ned unfortunately had to run to Lyanna and away from dragonspawn so maybe he wanted to curb the kings power but didn't get around to it... I doubt it though) 

19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

More practically Robert won the Seven Kingdoms at the Trident with his warhammer. 

Did he? I think Jaime won with his golden sword, and if not Tywin and Eddard were 5 minutes away. 

Or perhaps Ned won the war at the Bells, regardless Robert's trident was only the final victory in hindsight.

19 hours ago, The Jingo said:

He was a victorious conqueror, well-loved by those who fought under his banner. He was not going to be set aside for the infant grandson of the man they just waged a war to overthrow

Word. I understand Robert, who wouldn't want to be king? I don't understand JonA or Ned allowing Robert to rule with dragon like ferocity 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

doesn't matter what everyone thought, we have the privilege of having his Pov.

Where he tells Cat to keep Theon close 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

How so?

Prepared to kill Theon but not Joff. Calls Tywin a murderer while he polishes Ice.

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed, everyone but Robert.

It's not hypocritical, Kingsguards are judged differently. Which is why Jaime is so despised

Silly sunset kingdoms

13 hours ago, frenin said:

And Jaime didn't just rebel, as far as everyone knows, he jumped ship the very last minute.

Better late then never

13 hours ago, frenin said:

No, he's someone he consider to be closer than his own brothers.

Idk if that's true. He loves Ben. 

Whatever, brother, BFF, bromantic, he's a fool and a terrible king

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Are you arguing that changing a monarch implies that all rules are then on void and no order should be implemented?? That the only solution for daring challenge the status quo should rightfully be anarchy??

Not anarchy. I never said anarchy.  (Though if yould like me to, I concede it'd be way better then KLs current govt) 

But challenging the satus quo just to leave it in place is just stupid and shortsighted 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

very much was.

How can Stannis be king when Robert usurped Viserys?

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Fair enough, my bad

Np

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert desperately wanted to be king though

Doesn't he say something along the lines that it was Eddard and Jon Arryn the ones who convinced him to do so??

 

 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Where he tells Cat to keep Theon close

Close, not close to his sword. Nor Theon was a child when he said those words anyway.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Prepared to kill Theon but not Joff. Calls Tywin a murderer while he polishes Ice.

He's never prepared to kill either.

He calls Tywin and child murderer and then he got killed because he tried to protect the children of his hated enemies.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Silly sunset kingdoms

Sorta.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Better late then never

At that point it didn't look that way. That's why Tywin and Walder are despised.

When victory is all but assured. You're not going to look good jumping ship.

 

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk if that's true. He loves Ben. 

Whatever, brother, BFF, bromantic, he's a fool and a terrible king

By his own admission it's true.

Yeah, he's a bad King. Yet, unless he goes around breaking feudal pacts and killing his great lords, he gets to be King. Tyrants are never allowed, bad kings are other matter.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not anarchy. I never said anarchy.  (Though if yould like me to, I concede it'd be way better then KLs current govt) 

But challenging the satus quo just to leave it in place is just stupid and shortsighted

How so?? Seems to me that trying to bring about reforms people are simply not ready for is much more stupid and short sighted.

Every revolution aims to get stable and achieved a smooth transition. Else you end up with The Terror and another dictator or your land simply devolves into total chaos.

There's no hypocrisy there, nor Ned ever aimed to change anything more than he did, he did expect a better land out of the rebellion but he was a feudal man. Not Che.

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How can Stannis be king when Robert usurped Viserys?

Because Robert was the accepted King of Westeros??

Ned didn't believe in Viserys's claim, he believed in Robert's. So in his eyes, we're talking about his Pov here, there's no discussion about Stannis being the rightful successor.

You can disagree with Ned for not having your mindset, I still think that complaining about Ned being a big hypocrite for not thinking like you is a big far.

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Tywin and Shae still surprises me. What the hell is he doing with a whore after a) his old man's gal and b) Tyrion's Tysha? It's a real shame to me that we can't see more of how that came to pass. Doubtless Varys was involved, but this is the only instance I can think of where Tywin Lannister is exposed as something other than the person he actively portrays himself as.

 

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But of course not even Tywin, Balon Greyjoy or Walder Frey can match the true queen of hypocrisy who is none other than Cersei.

Nearly everything inside and about Cersei is nothing but pure hypocrisy and psychological projection of her own bad traits into others to a comedic degree, from her relation with Jaime with her claiming it to be pure love while she's in fact only loving her own reflection in him and fucking many men when he's not here, to her enmity toward Tyrion and the Tyrells which she accuses of crimes and traits she's completely guilty of, passing by his disdain of men and Robert while doing the same things she dislikes and accuses them off, own internal misoginy with her ressenting being used as a political asset, not being taken seriously or having suffered rape while being perfectly okay with other women suffering these, parenting and treatment of her children with her cherishing and spoiling Joffrey while completely ignoring at best the far better and nicer Myrcella and Tommen, even abusing Tommen in AFFC when he tries to be brave or a good ruler, to her ruling and lifestyle choices with her only putting synchopants on her Small Council only to blame them for her screw-ups.

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7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's never stated.

For Eddeard, sure. Dude murked the hell outta his family. But the rest? Jon Arryn chose honor and duty, ok. But Hoster took advantage of the termoil, pimped out his daughters and became an extremely powerful lord. Robert, well he was done dirty, but in no world is eloping while engaged gross treason.

Well obviously everyone who joined the Rebellion did so either to protect themselves, or get revenge, or make some gains. 

The attaintment via tyranny is an argument that would be recorded by the Maesters as the legal justification for the Rebellion. The official casus belli of Robert's Rebellion. Few people would rebel and just say "My justification? Well I just wanted some sweet lootz."

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I wish it was stated, it's mind boggling to me to dethrone a king and then not place any limit on his absolutness. (Robert desperately wanted to be king though and just like Renly not a half ass king. Ned unfortunately had to run to Lyanna and away from dragonspawn so maybe he wanted to curb the kings power but didn't get around to it... I doubt it though)

They didn't rebel against Aerys' absoluteness. They didn't say "The King has this power and we don't agree with that power and it's immoral for one person to have that power". They rebelled because Aerys' violated the feudal contract, not because they had a problem with the feudal contract as it was understood. 

If you're working for someone and he just shows up at the office one day, strips off all his clothes, and then farts in everyone's face - you don't quit because you now suddenly disagree with the idea of being an employee. No, you left because your employer did something blatantly outside of the employee-employer relationship you both agreed to.

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Did he? I think Jaime won with his golden sword, and if not Tywin and Eddard were 5 minutes away. 

Or perhaps Ned won the war at the Bells, regardless Robert's trident was only the final victory in hindsight.

Robert won the Seven Kingdoms when he killed Rhaegar at the Trident. Rhaegar was the person the Royalist cause was united behind. When he died it collapsed. The Tyrells rolled over without fighting despite having tens of thousands of unbloodied soldiers in the field. The fleet at Dragonstone fled, and even Dorne bent the knee despite there being active Targaryen claimants still alive.

Nobody was fighting for Aerys. If they were they would have rallied to fortify King's Landing against the rebels. Similarly, if Rhaegar had lived the Royalists could have retreated from the Trident to fortify King's Landing against a siege.

Jaime could have killed the pyromancers and ignored Aerys and literally nothing would have changed about the fall of the dynasty, because Aerys himself was almost wholly irrelevant as a leader.

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Not anarchy. I never said anarchy.  (Though if yould like me to, I concede it'd be way better then KLs current govt) 

But challenging the satus quo just to leave it in place is just stupid and shortsighted 

The rebels fought to restore the status quo of feudal king who ruled and protected the realm while respecting their rights. 

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On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

Doesn't he say something along the lines that it was Eddard and Jon Arryn the ones who convinced him to do so??

Not really, anyway he's just a drunk in his cup.

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Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."

Ned was kingmaker, we all knew that.  Anyways, Stannis said his brother's desperately wanted it.

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

How so?? Seems to me that trying to bring about reforms people are simply not ready for is much more stupid and short sighted

Nah. Reforms now, solve shit later.

Smallfolk have been groveling at Starks feet since the Builder picked up his first snowblower 10,000 years ago. If they weren't ready then they never will be.

Like Merreen, the entire economy is in the tank along with many ghiscari traditions.  People are starving and dying of the flux. But still, better then before.

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

Every revolution aims to get stable and achieved a smooth transition. Else you end up with The Terror

It wasn't that bad, just stay outta Paris lol. Seriously it wasn't that bad, compared to Louis and his ancestors 

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

another dictator

It's a step in the right direction 

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

or your land simply devolves into total chaos.

This is westeros. Even the seasons are chaos.

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

There's no hypocrisy there, nor Ned ever aimed to change anything more than he did, he did expect a better land out of the rebellion but he was a feudal man

Hence the hypocrisy. Feudal men with their nose up their kings ass can't make anything better

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

Not Che.

Lol

On 11/10/2021 at 5:00 PM, frenin said:

Because Robert was the accepted King of Westeros??

Ned didn't believe in Viserys's claim, he believed in Robert's. So in his eyes, we're talking about his Pov here, there's no discussion about Stannis being the rightful successor.

You can disagree with Ned for not having your mindset, I still think that complaining about Ned being a big hypocrite for not thinking like you is a big far.

It just does not compute for me, this is a guy who sees Viserys as the enemy, so also his son Jon Snow, but then sees Renly as a usurper becsuse Stannis has a better claim, but all of this is coming from a rebellious kingmaker who might as well respond to Guevara 

17 hours ago, The Jingo said:

The attaintment via tyranny is an argument that would be recorded by the Maesters as the legal justification for the Rebellion.

It's not though, otherwise Joff would have received instructions from someone besides Tywin. 

17 hours ago, The Jingo said:

They didn't rebel against Aerys' absoluteness. They didn't say "The King has this power and we don't agree with that power and it's immoral for one person to have that power". They rebelled because Aerys' violated the feudal contract, not because they had a problem with the feudal contract as it was understood. 

But they really should have, like Balon and Greatjon did. The dragons dead and the absolute in KL can't hurt you anymore. 

How is this feudal contract still a thing?

17 hours ago, The Jingo said:

No, you left because your employer did something blatantly outside of the employee-employer relationship you both agreed to.

It's different,  my employer is no longer my means for survival, so I quit cuz fuck work. But if my boss was a a dragon I'd inhale deep, because I need to pay rent lol

17 hours ago, The Jingo said:

The Tyrells rolled over without fighting despite having tens of thousands of unbloodied soldiers in the field. The fleet at Dragonstone fled, and even Dorne bent the knee despite there being active Targaryen claimants still alive.

The Tyrells sued after Aerys died and only because Mace is a weak as fuck and Neds a boss. The fleet at Dragonstone sunk because of the weather and Dorne sued after JonA convinced them, again after Aerys

17 hours ago, The Jingo said:

The rebels fought to restore the status quo of feudal king who ruled and protected the realm while respecting their rights. 

And it took less then 20 years to realize how stupid that was

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not though, otherwise Joff would have received instructions from someone besides Tywin. 

What does that have to do with anything? Who would be giving Joffrey instructions, and why?

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But they really should have, like Balon and Greatjon did. The dragons dead and the absolute in KL can't hurt you anymore. 

Yes, the should have taken the chance after installing a new King to institute some level of reforms in the Seven Kingdoms. But we as readers have the benefit of knowledge and hindsight that the characters don't. 

For example, there would be a lot of lords that are perfectly content with the system in place because it benefits them or they're simply traditionalists.

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How is this feudal contract still a thing?

Because that's the way it has 'always' worked in the Seven Kingdoms. A vassal swears to obey the lord, to fight in his wars, to pay taxes, and so forth. And the overlord promises to ensure peace, to respect certain rights, to defend and aid his subject, and so on.

People in the Seven Kingdoms haven't made any serious attempt to change that system. They revolt to change the overlord, or become an independent overlord themselves, or renegotiate the contract, or whatever. But they don't actually try to change the underlying feudal system. Until they do, the feudal contract will remain as the way things are done. 

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It's different,  my employer is no longer my means for survival, so I quit cuz fuck work. But if my boss was a a dragon I'd inhale deep, because I need to pay rent lol

It's not different. I'm just pointing out that you can disapprove of certain actors without disapproving of the system itself. You can oppose income taxes without opposing the idea of taxes. You can think a President is illegitimate without thinking the office of the Presidency shouldn't exist. You can overthrow a King without deciding to change the appropriate roles a King is supposed to fulfill. 

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The Tyrells sued after Aerys died and only because Mace is a weak as fuck and Neds a boss. The fleet at Dragonstone sunk because of the weather and Dorne sued after JonA convinced them, again after Aerys

The Tyrells sued because despite having the ability to fight on and possibly win, they weren't supportive enough of the Targaryen cause to take the risk. They fought while Rhaegar lived, and once he died they decided it wasn't worth going on. 

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And it took less then 20 years to realize how stupid that was

Except none of the rebels are rebelling against the System. They are only rebelling against certain actors or certain portions of it. 

Stannis is rebelling because according to the rules of the System, he is the legitimate monarch who is supposed to command that System. 

Renly is rebelling simply because he's greedy and wants to control the System and reap the benefits of doing so. 

The North and Riverlands revolted because they want to take their part of the System and go home and set it up as a separate System that operates under the same rules.

If any of the rebels won, the effect would not be to end feudalism or change the way it works. Stannis and Renly would just replace the operator and continue as things are, and the North would just take off the top layer and concentrate the power previously associated with the Iron Throne into the Lord of Winterfell.

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15 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

What does that have to do with anything? Who would be giving Joffrey instructions, and why?

Excuse me.

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Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. "Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you'll get no reply."

"Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff," said Cersei. "You heard him. 'Monster,' he said. To the King's Grace. And he threatened him . . ."

"Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will.

 

15 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

Yes, the should have taken the chance after installing a new King to institute some level of reforms in the Seven Kingdoms. But we as readers have the benefit of knowledge and hindsight that the characters don't. 

The characters know their history though, specifically the 100+ years of tyrannical dragons

15 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

For example, there would be a lot of lords that are perfectly content with the system in place because it benefits them or they're simply traditionalists.

Word, until they're not

15 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

Because that's the way it has 'always' worked in the Seven Kingdoms. A vassal swears to obey the lord, to fight in his wars, to pay taxes, and so forth. And the overlord promises to ensure peace, to respect certain rights, to defend and aid his subject, and so on.

People in the Seven Kingdoms haven't made any serious attempt to change that system. They revolt to change the overlord, or become an independent overlord themselves, or renegotiate the contract, or whatever. But they don't actually try to change the underlying feudal system. Until they do, the feudal contract will remain as the way things are done

It's not that mundane. Catelyn wants to call a council for example but even that is pretty feudal.

I guess modern Catelyn and her brotherhood is pretty non feudal, and to a small degree the ironborn

24 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

It's not different. I'm just pointing out that you can disapprove of certain actors without disapproving of the system itself. You can oppose income taxes without opposing the idea of taxes. You can think a President is illegitimate without thinking the office of the Presidency shouldn't exist. You can overthrow a King without deciding to change the appropriate roles a King is supposed to fulfill. 

But the president, legitimate or not, is in the White House charging us income taxes, I can't stop that. (Strange analogy here lol) but KL mathematically can't function anymore. The dragons made it and there are no dragons. 

Blackfyres were a good distraction but it only took 100 years for the Targaryens to lose KL and within 20 years it becomes near obsolete. Absolutes need their pimp hand

34 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

The Tyrells sued because despite having the ability to fight on and possibly win, they weren't supportive enough of the Targaryen cause to take the risk. They fought while Rhaegar lived, and once he died they decided it wasn't worth going on. 

They btk after Aerys, not Rhaegar. 

 

36 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

The North and Riverlands revolted because they want to take their part of the System and go home and set it up as a separate System that operates under the same rules

Not really. Robb revolted because the systems broken. His grandfather uncle and father were murdered by the state, his grandpa, nuncle and their subjects harassed. 

Tohrren didn't want to serve a monster, but he didnt want to burn either. Robb didnt have this dilemma.

40 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

the North would just take off the top layer and concentrate the power previously associated with the Iron Throne into the Lord of Winterfell

True. It's a smaller scale though, which may be worse lol

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On 11/10/2021 at 10:31 PM, Hugorfonics said:

For Eddeard, sure. Dude murked the hell outta his family. But the rest? Jon Arryn chose honor and duty, ok. But Hoster took advantage of the termoil, pimped out his daughters and became an extremely powerful lord. Robert, well he was done dirty, but in no world is eloping while engaged gross treason.

Aerys commanded Jon Arryn to execute Eddard and Robert. So Robert has little choice but to start the rebellion...

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not really, anyway he's just a drunk in his cup.

He does, nor was he drunk by then. Why would he lie being drunk anyway??

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Anyways, Stannis said his brother's desperately wanted it.

Stannis was in Storm's End when the decision was made, Robert never gives a sign of enjoying being King, quite the contrary. 

Of the three brothers, the one who seems desperate to get the Throne is Stannis anyway.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah. Reforms now, solve shit later.

If this ain't short sighted.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Smallfolk have been groveling at Starks feet since the Builder picked up his first snowblower 10,000 years ago. If they weren't ready then they never will be.

Like Merreen, the entire economy is in the tank along with many ghiscari traditions.  People are starving and dying of the flux. But still, better then before.

You're not talking about economic reforms. So what's the point of changing the subject??

You were talking about ways of ruling.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It wasn't that bad, just stay outta Paris lol. Seriously it wasn't that bad, compared to Louis and his ancestors 

It was that bad, revolutions and counter revolutions. Just look at the Vendee. Regardless I'm not delving too much in this, if you believe the Terror was passable it tells us everything.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's a step in the right direction 

Another absolute dictator is a step in the right direction??

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

This is westeros. Even the seasons are chaos.

"Total chaos"

I don't think there's many people that would prefer the anarchy of the hundred kingdoms over a stable realm.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hence the hypocrisy. Feudal men with their nose up their kings ass can't make anything better

Again, not thinking like you doesn't make one a hypocrite.

The rebels didn't aim to do what you're suggesting.  They simply wanted to change a dynasty that had wrong them, then they would return to business as usual.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It just does not compute for me, this is a guy who sees Viserys as the enemy, so also his son Jon Snow, but then sees Renly as a usurper becsuse Stannis has a better claim, but all of this is coming from a rebellious kingmaker who might as well respond to Guevara 

It doesn't compute because you expect something from Ned that he neither thinks, nor he's ever going to think.

Ned didn't just stop believing in the Feudal system once he deposed the Targs, he changed his allegiance from the Targaryens to the Baratheons. Plain and simple.

This means, Robert and his line are the rightful rulers of Westeros in his eyes. That means that Stannis is the rightful King in Ned's eyes.

It is not Ned's fault that you inmediately expect complete amorality from him because he deposed the Targaryens. 

Acting like Ned can't have a moral code because he's a rebel is simply absurd and it's your issue, not Ned's.

 

 

 

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They btk after Aerys, not Rhaegar. 

His children were alive and in Dragonstone for a whole year while they bent the knee to the rebels. They simply decided to ignore Viserys and Rhaella altogether.  I don't really see why Aerys is the stopgag, the sued for peace as soon as a rebel leader showed his nose. Not necessarily because Aerys was dead. Most actors agree that the Trident decided the matter, the Freys, the Westerlands and the Ironborn, they all move and started to act in Robert's name afterwards.

 

 

 

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Not really. Robb revolted because the systems broken. His grandfather uncle and father were murdered by the state, his grandpa, nuncle and their subjects harassed. 

Robb himself admitted the dilemma of rebelling about a dynasty he considered legitimate. He considered both Joffrey and his siblings the rightful line, just one that he wouldn't allow to rule over him, given that Robb considered the kids the rightful line, he couldn't just throw his allegiance to neither Stannis not Renly.

Declaring himself King made possible for him to remove that dissonance completely. Had Stannis sent his ravens earlie it's likely he might have sworn his army to him.

 

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

He does, nor was he drunk by then. Why would he lie being drunk anyway??

 

 

Stannis was in Storm's End when the decision was made, Robert never gives a sign of enjoying being King, quite the contrary. 

Of the three brothers, the one who seems desperate to get the Throne is Stannis anyway.

 

 

If this ain't short sighted.

 

 

You're not talking about economic reforms. So what's the point of changing the subject??

You were talking about ways of ruling.

 

 

 

It was that bad, revolutions and counter revolutions. Just look at the Vendee. Regardless I'm not delving too much in this, if you believe the Terror was passable it tells us everything.

 

 

Another absolute dictator is a step in the right direction??

 

"Total chaos"

I don't think there's many people that would prefer the anarchy of the hundred kingdoms over a stable realm.

 

 

Again, not thinking like you doesn't make one a hypocrite.

The rebels didn't aim to do what you're suggesting.  They simply wanted to change a dynasty that had wrong them, then they would return to business as usual.

 

 

 

It doesn't compute because you expect something from Ned that he neither thinks, nor he's ever going to think.

Ned didn't just stop believing in the Feudal system once he deposed the Targs, he changed his allegiance from the Targaryens to the Baratheons. Plain and simple.

This means, Robert and his line are the rightful rulers of Westeros in his eyes. That means that Stannis is the rightful King in Ned's eyes.

It is not Ned's fault that you inmediately expect complete amorality from him because he deposed the Targaryens. 

Acting like Ned can't have a moral code because he's a rebel is simply absurd and it's your issue, not Ned's.

 

 

 

His children were alive and in Dragonstone for a whole year while they bent the knee to the rebels. They simply decided to ignore Viserys and Rhaella altogether.  I don't really see why Aerys is the stopgag, the sued for peace as soon as a rebel leader showed his nose. Not necessarily because Aerys was dead. Most actors agree that the Trident decided the matter, the Freys, the Westerlands and the Ironborn, they all move and started to act in Robert's name afterwards.

 

 

 

Robb himself admitted the dilemma of rebelling about a dynasty he considered legitimate. He considered both Joffrey and his siblings the rightful line, just one that he wouldn't allow to rule over him, given that Robb considered the kids the rightful line, he couldn't just throw his allegiance to neither Stannis not Renly.

Declaring himself King made possible for him to remove that dissonance completely. Had Stannis sent his ravens earlie it's likely he might have sworn his army to him.

 

I think the justification given for Robb’s declaration of Independence is quite an interesting one.  They gave their oaths of fealty to the Targaryens, the Targaryens are no more, therefore the Northern kingdom is revived.  Implicitly, the Baratheons had no right to Northern fealty.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think the justification given for Robb’s declaration of Independence is quite an interesting one.  They gave their oaths of fealty to the Targaryens, the Targaryens are no more, therefore the Northern kingdom is revived.  Implicitly, the Baratheons had no right to Northern fealty.

That's the justification given by  Greatjon, among other stupid stuff, yet it's not a justification shared either by Robb, Cat, or Ned himself. Neither is a justification shared by the rest of those who later support the proclamation.

They all swore an oath to the Baratheons, the same oath they swore to the Targaryens. As it happened, the Baratheons like the Targaryens didn't get the memo about oaths being a two way street and the North ended up reneging of them like they did the Targs.

Unless maybe the Greatjon is a special case and for some reason he didn't swear allegiance to the Baratheons, we know the Ironborn didn't do after they were compelled to oblige.

Either way it's a faulty reasoning and one the main characters show it's false. 

 

 

Quote

“Renly is not the king,” Robb said. It was the first time her son had spoken. Like his father, he knew how to listen. “You cannot mean to hold to Joffrey, my lord,” Galbart Glover said. “He put your father to death.” “That makes him evil,” Robb replied. “I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert’s eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey.” “Tommen is no less a Lannister,” Ser Marq Piper snapped. “As you say,” said Robb, troubled. “Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He’s Robert’s younger brother. Bran can’t be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can’t be king before Lord Stannis.” Lady Mormont agreed. “Lord Stannis has the better claim.” “Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper. “Highgarden and Storm’s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?” “The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it. “So you mean us to declare for Stannis?” asked Edmure. “I don’t know,” said Robb. “I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer. The Lannisters killed my father for a traitor, and we know that was a lie, but if Joffrey is the lawful king and we fight against him, we will be traitors.”

 

These are not the words of someone who believes owes no allegiance to the Baratheons.  It's not surprising that Greatjon had the worst take of them all, of all, his path was also the dumbest of them all so...

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On 11/11/2021 at 6:42 PM, Ser Lepus said:

Aerys commanded Jon Arryn to execute Eddard and Robert. So Robert has little choice but to start the rebellion...

Little choice to start an insurrection 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

He does,

Not those words

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

nor was he drunk by then

Yea it was like 8 in the morning, he was tipsy.

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Why would he lie being drunk anyway??

That's how drunks act

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Stannis was in Storm's End when the decision was made

Which means Robert's wanted to be king for a while (desperately) 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Robert never gives a sign of enjoying being King, quite the contrary. 

Ugly hat, long hours

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Of the three brothers, the one who seems desperate to get the Throne is Stannis anyway.

They're all nuts

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

You're not talking about economic reforms. So what's the point of changing the subject??

You were talking about ways of ruling.

Two sides of the same coin 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

It was that bad, revolutions and counter revolutions. Just look at the Vendee

Lol word, stay outta the countryside too

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Regardless I'm not delving too much in this, if you believe the Terror was passable it tells us everything.

:D

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Another absolute dictator is a step in the right direction??

I like the precedent of a successful revolution. Puts the successors in line.

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Total chaos"

I don't think there's many people that would prefer the anarchy of the hundred kingdoms over a stable realm.

This is the Sunset, nothings stable.  If your not defending your livelihood from Ironborn, Wildling, ValeWildling or Dornish raids your in a pissing contest with a chquey lion. 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

The rebels didn't aim to do what you're suggesting.  They simply wanted to change a dynasty that had wrong them, then they would return to business as usual.

No. Ned wanted the world to be better.

Quote

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

(Lol again with the kids)

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

It is not Ned's fault that you inmediately expect complete amorality from him because he deposed the Targaryens

I have two what iffs, if yould be so kind to indulge. 1. Jon finds out about his lineage, would Ned support him? 2. Varys frees Ned in agot and he joins team Griff, is that possible? 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:21 PM, frenin said:

Had Stannis sent his ravens earlie it's likely he might have sworn his army to him.

He really took his time.

On 11/12/2021 at 12:10 AM, frenin said:

They all swore an oath to the Baratheons, the same oath they swore to the Targaryens

So, they didn't. Like Robb personally? With Robert or Joff? Never happened.

But it's really not the same oath, Torrhen swore his oath because he didn't want to fight a dragon (soft lol), but no Baratheon oath has that threat backing it up

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