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Biggest hypocrite in the series ?


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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not those words

He still questions it.

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea it was like 8 in the morning, he was tipsy.

He wasn't. Else it would have been noted.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's how drunks act

People is noted to tell the truth while drunk.

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which means Robert's wanted to be king for a while (desperately) 

And Stannis found out how desperate Robert was for being King telepathically?

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ugly hat, long hours

?

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're all nuts

The middle boy seems the more eager to get the Throne, particularly since he's the one with less access of it.

Stannis is pondering about whether to sacrifice his own nephew to the fire in order to get the Throne while saying to himself he doesn't really want it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Two sides of the same coin 

Not really no. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol word, stay outta the countryside too

Stay out of France then. You're getting the point even if you don't want to acknowledge it. The country itself was chaotic.

 

 

Quote

I like the precedent of a successful revolution. Puts the successors in line.

What successors??

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

This is the Sunset, nothings stable.  If your not defending your livelihood from Ironborn, Wildling, ValeWildling or Dornish raids your in a pissing contest with a chquey lion. 

So, you're saying that because in Jaeharys's reign there was little rebellions. The Dance on the dragons is preferable??

Because I know you understand my point well enough. Constant civil war and infighting is not a good option.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Ned wanted the world to be better.

That's something I said. 

Ned's an idealist, so there's a valid argument that he expected something better out of the mess, yet the rebels simply changed dynasties and left everything else intact. That's what they were collectively aiming.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Lol again with the kids)

What kids did Aerys murder lol?? That's simply trying to reasonate with Robert by equating him with the people he hated the more.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I have two what iffs, if yould be so kind to indulge. 1. Jon finds out about his lineage, would Ned support him? 2. Varys frees Ned in agot and he joins team Griff, is that possible?

Obvious no to both. Ned actually chose to send him to the Wall, his only reluctance being that he wasn't young enough. We're in Ned's head, he doesn't have any linger loyalty to the Targaryens. Nor he believes them to have any rightful claim anymore. Jon's claim is that of his enemies, why would he support him when his best friend is on the Throne?

The Griff bit is even more impossible, Griff and Varys are nothing to Ned.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He really took his time.

Stannis is dumb. Then again, and in fairness to him, the plot really needed that.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, they didn't. Like Robb personally? With Robert or Joff? Never happened.

Their House did, once, which is enough.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But it's really not the same oath, Torrhen swore his oath because he didn't want to fight a dragon (soft lol), but no Baratheon oath has that threat backing it up

??? It's the exact same oath with different circumstances.

Torrhen swore an oath of eternal fidelity because of dragons, Eddard swore an oath of eternal fidelity because Robert being his best bud.

And with the rest of the Realm, the North is equally screwed anyway but it was never in that context.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

He wasn't. Else it would have been noted.

They were drinking beer

1 hour ago, frenin said:

People is noted to tell the truth while drunk.

No, they embellish everything with their intoxicated memory. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Stannis found out how desperate Robert was for being King telepathically?

Stannis was like 6 when he first saw Robert gazing at the throne...

Idk what to tell ya, he often wonders why his brothers desperately wanted it. That's a constant in his mind along with Renlys peach, sounds real enough.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The middle boy seems the more eager to get the Throne, particularly since he's the one with less access of it.

I wouldn't put one above any other

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Stannis is pondering about whether to sacrifice his own nephew to the fire in order to get the Throne while saying to himself he doesn't really want it.

He never says that (of course he wants it), just that it's his rights. (Talk about hypocrites, tho I suspect future Stannis to btk to Jon)

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Stay out of France then. You're getting the point even if you don't want to acknowledge it. The country itself was chaotic.

Very ugly scenes, the drownings... nevertheless the French Revolution imo is a shining moment of humanity, europe changed dramatically from some medieval game o throne shit to a world of like free will and, you know, not game o throne shit.

Dark times, new beginnings... still they like invented the metric system during the terror, crazy stuff.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

So, you're saying that because in Jaeharys's reign there was little rebellions. The Dance on the dragons is preferable??

Because I know you understand my point well enough. Constant civil war and infighting is not a good option.

Huh? I'm saying Westeros is a dangerous place despite KLs subjugation.

In fact if you take the Dance, along with the Conquest, RR and whatever these books are about I would say the sheer death toll makes KLs subjugation not preferable at all.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ned's an idealist, so there's a valid argument that he expected something better out of the mess, yet the rebels simply changed dynasties and left everything else intact. That's what they were collectively aiming

But to my understanding Ned was the heavy hitter outta the squad, at the very least he had KL. So for later Ned to be confused that Robert's terrible is, although not hypocritical, something similar to that word

1 hour ago, frenin said:

What kids did Aerys murder lol??

Well he put a hit on late two teenage hood or early 20s bromance boys. Duskendale maybe.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

why would he support him when his best friend is on the Throne?

Robert's kinda crazy and his court is too. Jon is his son and he loves him.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Griff and Varys are nothing to Ned.

But Aegon was, or his ghost was

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Stannis is dumb

Cautious 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Then again, and in fairness to him, the plot really needed that.

He didn't think Renly would crown himself immediately, nor did he suspect Robb would head south. I don't think anyone suspected those things.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Their House did, once, which is enough.

Why do you think that? Joff didn't invite 1/2 the realm to his coronation for fun.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Torrhen swore an oath of eternal fidelity because of dragons, Eddard swore an oath of eternal fidelity because Robert being his best bud

One of them is a Lucca Brasi offer you can't refuse, brains or signature on the contract.  The other is not.

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

They were drinking beer

So... Did you see Ned tipsy??

Are you tipsy everytime you drink alcohol no matter the amount you drink?? If so, you shouldn't drink.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, they embellish everything with their intoxicated memory. 

Are they capable enough to embellish while drunk. Nice.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis was like 6 when he first saw Robert gazing at the throne...

Idk what to tell ya, he often wonders why his brothers desperately wanted it. That's a constant in his mind along with Renlys peach, sounds real enough.

Why it sounds real enough?? He knew neither of them really. 

Neither of them really want it desperately.

 

 

Quote

I wouldn't put one above any other

One tried to serve his nephew to the fires to get it...

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He never says that (of course he wants it), just that it's his rights. (Talk about hypocrites, tho I suspect future Stannis to btk to Jon)

So, he doesn't really want it, it's simply his. He talks as if he can't just ignore the call.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Very ugly scenes, the drownings... nevertheless the French Revolution imo is a shining moment of humanity, europe changed dramatically from some medieval game o throne shit to a world of like free will and, you know, not game o throne shit.

Dark times, new beginnings... still they like invented the metric system during the terror, crazy stuff.

And even that revolution aimed for stability. It's aim wasn't wanton destruction and it strived for the contrary.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Huh? I'm saying Westeros is a dangerous place despite KLs subjugation.

In fact if you take the Dance, along with the Conquest, RR and whatever these books are about I would say the sheer death toll makes KLs subjugation not preferable at all.

If you take the death toll of both worlds wars. You might think that living in the middle ages isn't preferable at all for the western world.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But to my understanding Ned was the heavy hitter outta the squad, at the very least he had KL. So for later Ned to be confused that Robert's terrible is, although not hypocritical, something similar to that word

Being mistaken is not the same as being hypocritical.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He didn't think Renly would crown himself immediately, nor did he suspect Robb would head south. I don't think anyone suspected those things.

When plotting to take power. Speed is key, you don't want give others the initiative.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well he put a hit on late two teenage hood or early 20s bromance boys. Duskendale maybe.

Neither were children and Dontos was the only boy. Not that any of that was fair or moral, they were not children tho.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert's kinda crazy and his court is too. Jon is his son and he loves him.

He still supported him.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Aegon was, or his ghost was

He wasn't. Not wanting him dead/ wanting him on the Throne.

Ned opposed the hit on the Targs, he still argued that if they dared to cross the Narrow Sea, he'd help Robert to push them back.

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why do you think that? Joff didn't invite 1/2 the realm to his coronation for fun.

He did so because the Lannisters were despised and he had just arrested one of the Great Lords for treason.

He also suspected that his uncles, far more beloved or respected could use the uncertainty to claim the Throne.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

One of them is a Lucca Brasi offer you can't refuse, brains or signature on the contract.  The other is not.

I mean a massive invasion is not a nice sight either.

Either way, the oath and its meaning are the same.

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On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

So... Did you see Ned tipsy??

So... we're not talking about Ned

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Are you tipsy everytime you drink alcohol no matter the amount you drink?? If so, you shouldn't drink.

Lol thanks for the advice

Idk what to tell you

Quote

Ned had hoped to discover the king still abed in a wine-soaked sleep, but luck was not with him. They found Robert drinking beer from a polished horn and roaring his displeasure at two young squires who were trying to buckle him into his armor. "Your Grace," one was saying, almost in tears, "it's made too small, it won't go." He fumbled, and the gorget he was trying to fit around Robert's thick neck tumbled to the ground.

"Seven hells!" Robert swore. "Do I have to do it myself? Piss on the both of you. Pick it up. Don't just stand there gaping, Lancel, pick it up!" The lad jumped, and the king noticed his company. "Look at these oafs, Ned. My wife insisted I take these two to squire for me, and they're worse than useless. Can't even put a man's armor on him properly. Squires, they say. I say they're swineherds dressed up in silk."

Ned only needed a glance to understand the difficulty. "The boys are not at fault," he told the king. "You're too fat for your armor, Robert."

Robert Baratheon took a long swallow of beer, tossed the empty horn onto his sleeping furs, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and said darkly, "Fat? Fat, is it? Is that how you speak to your king?" He let go his laughter, sudden as a storm. "Ah, damn you, Ned, why are you always right?"

He's drunk, and apparently usually drunk because Ned thought he'd be hammered from last night instead of drinking in the morning. (Cersei I guess knew that because she was planning on killing him that morning under the theory; Drunks die in melees, fortunately drunks die in boar hunts too.)

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Why it sounds real enough?? He knew neither of them really. 

Of course he knew them. Like, they were raised together, orphans at that. Then they lived and worked next to each other for 20 years.

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Neither of them really want it desperately.

Believe what you want... just know it's not the text lol

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

One tried to serve his nephew to the fires to get it...

While the other left his brothers without reinforcements to chase his throne, the third was content to kill his brother who saved him in the siege.

They're all nuts

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

He talks as if he can't just ignore the call.

Lots of characters act like they have no free will, and then proceed to dabble in unconventional politics. Hypocritical behavior exhibited by such like Stannis and Eddard

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

And even that revolution aimed for stability. It's aim wasn't wanton destruction and it strived for the contrary

Idk about that. "You can't have a revolution without a revolution" ;)

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

If you take the death toll of both worlds wars. You might think that living in the middle ages isn't preferable at all for the western world.

Well life before the industrial revolution sucked, so I'd say death or no death, there's nothing preferable about the middle ages.

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Being mistaken is not the same as being hypocritical

It's more then mistaken though, because he knew Robert sucked on day 1 with the dragonspawn thusly his mistake is more like willful ignorance, kinda like how he is cool with giving his baby to Joffrey up until the moment he plans on handing the throne to Stannis 

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

When plotting to take power. Speed is key, you don't want give others the initiative.

You don't wanna seem weak either, barter and sell out your kingdom like you're not Aegon the dragons successor 

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Neither were children

Pretty young

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

Dontos was the only boy

Oh yeah, that was the whole point. 

On 11/13/2021 at 4:05 PM, frenin said:

they were not children tho.

Well some dead or wanted to be dead children existed

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While I disagree with most of what Hugor had to say, he's right that drink does not produce truth. Many people are significantly more likely to lie while drunk, and are significantly more susceptible to peer pressure. Not everyone is this way, but many are.

The myth that in vino veritas needs to die.

Edited by Ivashanko
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/14/2021 at 4:16 AM, Firefae said:

Varys and Robert

I think Varys wins the prize here. His whole "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" shtick rings very hollow when he's gone out of his way several times to destabilise regimes that were actually ensuring peace and resolving problems. He likes to think he's above petty politics, but he's not. He just cloaks his cheerleading for one side under the guise of some superior morality.

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7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon Snow is the biggest hypocrite in A Song of Ice and Fire. 

You and your friends (or the same person with different accounts) have already iterated Jon Snow a thousand times. It was entertaining to watch at first, but now it's frankly quite dull. 

 

So. Besides the Starks, who else do you think is a big hypocrite? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think STAB (Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon) works as the biggest hypocrite. They first rebel for entirely understandable reasons (Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, demanding Ned and Robert's heads for no reason). But then, after they declare Robert King, they used his grandmother being a Targaryen  as his right to the throne. 

Which means that going by that logic, Aegon and/or Rhaenys, or Viserys are the rightful heirs. But nope, we'll smash their heads against walls. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/8/2021 at 9:15 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Among the many characters present in the main story from AGOT to the sample chapters of The Winds of Winter, who would you say is the most hypocrital of all, doing the complete opposite of what he/she says or what he/she criticizes others for, or accusing others of things he or she is completely guilty of ?

Ned Stark .

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On 11/10/2021 at 4:25 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Tywin and Shae still surprises me. What the hell is he doing with a whore after a) his old man's gal and b) Tyrion's Tysha? It's a real shame to me that we can't see more of how that came to pass. Doubtless Varys was involved, but this is the only instance I can think of where Tywin Lannister is exposed as something other than the person he actively portrays himself as.

 

It’s crazy one scene (that last time we see Tywin in the series) adds so many layers to Tywin’s character. 

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On 12/8/2021 at 11:57 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

I think STAB (Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon) works as the biggest hypocrite. They first rebel for entirely understandable reasons (Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna, demanding Ned and Robert's heads for no reason). But then, after they declare Robert King, they used his grandmother being a Targaryen  as his right to the throne. 

Which means that going by that logic, Aegon and/or Rhaenys, or Viserys are the rightful heirs. But nope, we'll smash their heads against walls. 

Well, except the Lannisters are the ones who killed Elia and her children. Ned was hopping furious over their deaths. So the STAB alliance is not guilty of hypocrisy through their deaths.

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3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, except the Lannisters are the ones who killed Elia and her children. Ned was hopping furious over their deaths. So the STAB alliance is not guilty of hypocrisy through their deaths.

not Aegon and Rhaenys's death. but what about Viserys and Daenerys? they had the throne by the right of conquest .. there was no need to also cling on the Targaryen heritage.. if they wanted to use that , they should have held a great council to disinherit Aerys's line.

 

by the way @Jaenara Belarys "STAB" alliance?! that's amazing:P

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

they had the throne by the right of conquest .. there was no need to also cling on the Targaryen heritage..

It's the safest way to have a smooth transition.

 

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

but what about Viserys and Daenerys?

What about them.

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

if they wanted to use that , they should have held a great council to disinherit Aerys's line.

They had done that. Aerys's line was de facto disinherited when Robert took the Throne.

It's not like those opposing the rebels wouldn't call the whole operation bullshit and ignore it the first chance they had.

Richard of York and his line were declared the heirs of King Henry VI by Parliament, that didn't prevent the War of the Roses.

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

They had done that. Aerys's line was de facto disinherited when Robert took the Throne.

as far as smoothing the transition is concerned, holding a council (even only as a formality) would have been helpful. with styling himself as the Targaryen successor ,it was when Robert "usurped" his cousin's throne instead of "taking" or "conquering". 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

It's not like those opposing the rebels wouldn't call the whole operation bullshit and ignore it the first chance they had.

so wouldn't using the Targaryen line of succession.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Richard of York and his line were declared the heirs of King Henry VI by Parliament, that didn't prevent the War of the Roses.

of course ,if anyone wants to oppose Robert , nothing would hold them back. not the Targaryen line , not a great council , not even right of conquest.

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10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, except the Lannisters are the ones who killed Elia and her children. Ned was hopping furious over their deaths. So the STAB alliance is not guilty of hypocrisy through their deaths.

By acknowledging that Robert's claim is through his Targaryen grandma, they are effectively saying Targaryen blood is what is needed to sit the throne (among other things, as well, such as armies). 

 

@EggBlue, I found that on the Internet. It works, and it saves me the time of having to type out each house. 

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