Wheel of Time TV Show 7: And There Shall Be Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth

[karaddin]

LP - I'm not sure if you're worried that we'll forget how negative you feel about this production if you don't mention it for a couple of days, but let me reassure you that we won't. You don't need to prioritise negative reviews in this thread just to keep us in the loop. It's two days, there are a ton of reviews linked with a variety of reactions, let people see the first 3 episodes and judge for ourselves.

[Ran]

43 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Wait, what ambush scene? With Logain?

I assume that's what it is, the scenes we've seen in trailers of what I assume are Logain's Dragonsworn followers trying to rescue him or protect him, the Green and her warder(s?) running through the wood and channeling explosions ( I thought that was specifically a Seanchan weave revealed in TGH, from my vague recollection?), and so on.

[fionwe1987]

22 minutes ago, Ran said:

I assume that's what it is, the scenes we've seen in trailers of what I assume are Logain's Dragonsworn followers trying to rescue him or protect him, the Green and her warder(s?) running through the wood and channeling explosions ( I thought that was specifically a Seanchan weave revealed in TGH, from my vague recollection?), and so on.

That's definitely invented in the sense that it's never on screen in the books, but we both know that several Aes Sedai died fighting Logain, and that Taim actually did manage to escape. There are also historical False Dragons whose followers came close to or even actually succeeded in rescuing them.

I think it's fair to show this in the show. They did mention Logain was getting a bigger role, and I think that's a good call. I don't think the show can have as narrow a focus as the Eye of the World did. 

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

hat's definitely invented in the sense that it's never on screen in the books

Which is really my point -- they've shoehorned in what appears to be a big spectacle sequence, which I think tells something about how they view the show and how it will appeal to the audience. And this after already making the decision that Winternight needed to be shown. 

I dropped off watching Game of Thrones when spectacle began to be the primary drive of the writers, just as I dropped various fantasy novels series when outdoing their predecessors seemed to take over from good storytelling. There's a bunch of superhero films I haven't seen because it's all just spectacle over substance.

So, that's where my own concern comes from. There's a lot of spectacle coming if they go the distance with this show, but loading up a bunch at the start is going to change expectations of what the story will be.

[fionwe1987]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Which is really my point -- they've shoehorned in what appears to be a big spectacle sequence, which I think tells something about how they view the show and how it will appeal to the audience.

I'm not bothered by this, though. We do need to see how the Tower deals with False Dragons, both to get a sense for the Tower, and then to later up the fear for Rand and his friends of what happens when the Tower finds out.

It also makes the moment Rand finds out he can channel hit home more in a way it never did, in the books.

Expanding on Logain, as well as bringing in Tower politics early was a good call, I think. I've seen a few reviewers who've even said that it's only in episode 6 (which seems to be when we hit the White Tower) that the breadth of the world becomes clear, and the show feels better for it, and that it has more of a monster/chase of the week format before then, which is an accurate description of the first 2/3rds of Eye of the World. 

[Lord Patrek]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

So, that's where my own concern comes from. There's a lot of spectacle coming if they go the distance with this show, but loading up a bunch at the start is going to change expectations of what the story will be.

My thoughts, exactly. Character development, especially in the first installments, is what made WoT become the superior series it turned out to be. Skipping on that in favor of more special effects and blowing shit up feels like taking the heart out of the series. It's the protagonists' plights that made you care for them. Changing Rand and Egwene's storylines the way they seem to be doing takes a lot away from who they are and who they become down the line.

I also seem to recall (it's been years since I last read the early volumes) that many offensive weaves were re-introduced in Randland following the Seanchan invasion. Lots of what the damane can do was unknown, even by the Green Ajah.

[fionwe1987]

I do have to wonder, though, whether what's consider quiet character moments differs between a fan of fantasy fiction and someone who doesn't care for it.

From what I'm reading from Wert, something like an explanation of Winternight by Tam, tied to missing Kari, would absolutely be a character moment showing you the bond between Tam and Rand (if it is well acted, which it seems to be from reports). But someone who cares nothing for fantasy would probably find explanation of an alien festival cheesy and useless.

That's one reason I give reviewers who like fantasy more credence in their judgment of the show. I feel broader audiences are more likely to not automatically have the "fantasy=cheesy and bad" attitude that critics have. If they get invested, and the show gets big, you'll see this same crowd of reviewers suddenly engaging with the show on its terms, rather than demanding that it strip off these elements. 

All this is pure speculation, now, of course. Maybe there really is very little character development in the show, in which case, that's sad. But I have a feeling what a lot of people here would see as character development in the context of a secondary world might be seen by some critical as bland/meaningless fantasy fare, in a way broader audiences don't, anymore. 

[Rhom]

20 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

 

I also seem to recall (it's been years since I last read the early volumes) that many offensive weaves were re-introduced in Randland following the Seanchan invasion. Lots of what the damane can do was unknown, even by the Green Ajah.

Funny… I first read “offensive” as something offending instead of the military application of the word.

Was wondering what was so offensive about the things the damane did other than the slavery/bondage.   

[fionwe1987]

15 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Funny… I first read “offensive” as something offending instead of the military application of the word.

Was wondering what was so offensive about the things the damane did other than the slavery/bondage.   

Well, they do use the Power in wars against other humans, which plenty of characters in the books find offensive. 

[Lord Patrek]

Are we right, though? Were those weaves brought back by the Seanchan?

[Werthead]

You can't do Wheel of Time cheap. It is, very inherently and from very early on, a much more expensive proposition than Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones was really only doable because GRRM did not - at least at first - over-indulge in travelogues. He centred the story in several key locations - Winterfell, King's Landing, Castle Black, the Eyrie and Pentos/Vaes Dothrak, with only a bit of travelling between them - and flipped between them. This was a godsend for HBO, who only needed to build several sets and then focus on those locations. The bulk of the story happens on sets, there is almost zero on-screen magic and they could keep costs down by having the three key battles all happen off-screen (even GRRM helps by having two of the battles happen off-page).

With Wheel of Time you have non-human creatures right up in your face from very early on, you have awesome displays of magic going off almost immediately, you have entire armies of creatures in the early going and the characters spend almost all their time on the road with no re-usable locations or sets,

Spoiler

which is why they've shifted events from Caemlyn to Tar Valon, to create at least one static "base" location they'll be revisiting frequently

.

Putting Winternight on screen is a no-brainer, especially since when Rand and the wounded Tam show up in EF they get a very detailed, blow-by-blow account of the battle anyway, and the first rule of television is show, don't tell. I think you also need to see what Moiraine and the Aes Sedai can do with the Power right up front, otherwise there isn't much scope for it until the Seanchan damane start blowing stuff up in Book 2. The Winternight battle also comes after ~45 minutes of character work, setting up the interrelationships between the main characters and also among the supporting cast (I was surprised they did as much as they did with Tam, Padan Fain, Mat and Egwene's parents and even the Coplins/Congars, and I suspect they're thinking forwards to the Shadow Rising Two Rivers arc already).

Shadar Logoth is a massive set-piece in terms of the set design and excellent integration into the CG of the dead city, but not really as a battle sequence. Again, it's also surprisingly brief (15 minutes or so) at the very end of an episode with a lot of character-building and working on the relationships (between Moiraine and Egwene, Egwene and Rand, Lan and Moiraine, Moiraine and Rand, and between Rand, Mat and Perrin; Mat and Perrin get a really nice scene in Shadar Logoth together showing their friendship, which the first book undersold in its focus instead on Rand/Mat).

There's also several set-piece elements from the books missing from the show:

Spoiler

There's no Draghkar over Watch Hill - no Watch Hill for that matter - and no Baerlon, so no Moiraine using the One Power to scare off the Whitecloaks. It's also unclear if we're going to get Whitebridge, the Spray (or just a generic river boat) and that whole sequence of events either, although Whitebridge has been mentioned and Thom advocates travelling by river boat after Rand and Mat meet him.

There are certainly more set pieces to come, though: 

Spoiler

There's reportedly a flashback to Logain in Ghealdan in Episode 4, being captured by the Aes Sedai, and there's his breakout attempt and a rescue attempt (which may be one event). There's also the battle at Tarwin's Gap, which looks like it might have been moved to Fal Dara itself, in the last two episodes of the season, and a flashback to the Blood Snow. 

I'm trying to think of other epic fantasies you could make that would require less in the way of big effects set pieces. Guy Gavriel Kay, certainly, and probably the Farseer trilogy. Pretty much all everything else would require some kind of major up-front investment. You can also see that in House of the Dragon, where they've prioritised several big set pieces in the first season from the sound of it.

[fionwe1987]

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Are we right, though? Were those weaves brought back by the Seanchan?

Yes, and no. The Seanchan do have some unique destructive weaves, but Moiraine causes earthquakes and makes walls of fire, uses lighnight and fireballs all from the very beginning. The Aes Sedai aren't incapable of destruction or anything, they're just not as indiscriminate as the Seanchan are, because destruction is pretty much all the damane can do.

Quote

Master al’Vere nodded grimly. “One branch of the family. But none of them are very different. That fool Darl Coplin spent half the night demanding I put Mistress Moiraine and Master Lan out of the inn, out of the village, as if there would be any village at all left without them.” Rand had only half listened to the conversation, but this last tugged him to speak. “What did they do?” “Why, she called ball lightning out of a clear night sky,” Master al’Vere replied. “Sent it darting straight at the Trollocs. You’ve seen trees shattered by it. The Trollocs stood it no better.”

And Moiraine is seriously underpowered in book 1, especially given her angreal. I have no particular issues with them correcting that in the show. 

[Werthead]

Quote

 

Didn't the first season of GoT cost 45 million?

 

No. $60 million, rising to $69 million in Season 2 and above $70 million in Season 3 (reaching $100 million for each of Season 6, 7 and 8, though with 8 it sounds like it went way over that because HBO told them to go for it).

WoT is between $100 and $120 million for the season, so significantly higher even with inflation, but the main thing eating that up isn't vfx but the sheer volume of location filming, which is off the charts, moreso because almost everything is done in-camera and only Shadar Logoth featuring significant greenscreen work.

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Are we right, though? Were those weaves brought back by the Seanchan?

I don't think Aes Sedai directly or indirectly learn from the Seanchan. What the Seanchan do is they push the damane to their limits, which can result in channelers jumping in power levels faster. Egwene becomes more powerful this way, and I think the only thing she learns from them in terms of weaves is some stuff to do with Earth. The bigger game changing weaves came later thanks to Moghedien.

And Moiraine used lightning and fire on the Trollocs in Emond's Field. And she uses fire again when they're being chased. And lets not forget that Moiraine somehow knows the balefire weave.

[Lord Patrek]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I did remember that Egwene did level up because of the Seanchan.

[Ran]

I was specifically referring to the weave Egwene is taught that allows her to make the ground explode. Pretty sure that one is unique to Seanchan in the book.

[fionwe1987]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

I was specifically referring to the weave Egwene is taught that allows her to make the ground explode. Pretty sure that one is unique to Seanchan in the book.

And later the Asha'man, yes. But that's not so much the Aes Sedai being unable to do it as just not something they do. They have other ways they get destructive with Earth:

Quote

“Loose!” Tam shouted. Bowstrings slapped like one huge whip-crack. With twin crashes of beam against leather-padded beam, the catapults fired. Broadhead arrows rained down into the Trollocs. Monstrous shapes fell, but some rose and staggered on, harried by the Fades. That horn wove into their guttural bellowing, sounding forward for the kill. The catapults’ stones fell among them—and exploded in fire and shards, ripping open holes in the mass.  

Perrin was not the only one to jump; so that was what the Aes Sedai had been doing with the catapults.

Aes Sedai can explode rock/earth too, if not exactly the way the Seanchan do it. Verin, when she sees Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve use it (on the Whitecloaks) isn't surprised so much as outraged at the idea of such weaves being used.

With regard to the Power, the a'dam is basically a link, so it prevents you from overdrawing. This means a damane can safely be "forced", which is the Aes Sedai term for holding as much of the Power as you can, often, to push yourself to reach your potential faster. This is strictly forbidden by the Aes Sedai, because you can overdraw and kill yourself. The Asha'man do it, and lose one in ten of their number to burning out because of it. Anytime but the Last Battle, that's an insane attrition rate for trainees.

I was always surprised RJ never had Elayne copy just the linking portion of the a'dam to make a new kind of ter'angreal that would allow two women to simply push themselves without harm. Conceptually, at least, that's doable. Maybe in the Fourth Age. 

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I dropped off watching Game of Thrones when spectacle began to be the primary drive of the writers, just as I dropped various fantasy novels series when outdoing their predecessors seemed to take over from good storytelling.

Which fantasy novel series do you mean?

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm not bothered by this, though. We do need to see how the Tower deals with False Dragons, both to get a sense for the Tower, and then to later up the fear for Rand and his friends of what happens when the Tower finds out.

It also makes the moment Rand finds out he can channel hit home more in a way it never did, in the books.

I think it hit home in the books, too. Both the reader and Rand understood the consequences, I think. Rand saw Logain in Caemlyn, and Thom also told a lot about the various False Dragons. The final scene of the book also showed that Rand knew he would not be going home. 

Something which may not be in the show, is the arrival in Caemlyn, which felt like a triumphant moment of finally reaching safety (as well as a "grand" location) after sneaking past the last Fade and associated darkfriends. Rand and Matt had been aided by many to get there, but also had more than their share of suspicion and attacks. In the show, Tar Valon will take over for Caemlyn, but I wonder if the journey to get there will be as good as it was in the books. They seem to have cut quite a bit, and it may not help that Thom seems to have a smaller role in the show (at least in the sense that he is introduced pretty late).

I'm also not sure how Rand not meeting Elayne in the first season will work out. In the books, Elayne at least had a reason to be curious about (and have something of a crush on) Rand. There is a lot to be improved upon in the relationship of Rand with Elayne (and Aviendha, for that matter), but the first meeting was probably the best part of it.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Which fantasy novel series do you mean?

The main one I ditched part way through because he kept seeming to try and one-up himself was Erikson's Malazan series. Karsa Fucking Orlong did not help.

 

[Wouter]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

The main one I ditched part way through because he kept seeming to try and one-up himself was Erikson's Malazan series. Karsa Fucking Orlong did not help.

 

I suspected it was Malazan