Wheel of Time TV Show 7: And There Shall Be Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth

[Werthead]

30 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Rand uses the One Power to shave in his sleep.  He's always clean-shaven because of that. 

You jest, but there's a specific Aes Sedai skill to stop them from overly perspiring in heat, so auto-shaving sounds reasonably doable.

[Poobah]

59 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah that line definitely stood out to me. It isn't a terrible idea, but if the Aes Sedai didn't have the Oaths before...how was Hawkwing able to besiege them in the first place?

I think it was a pretty good conversation that covers a lot of bases in a very succinct way (though since it's Egwene who recounts it it may not be an entirely accurate story, just the one that is commonly known to explain the oaths). I agree it does open up some questions but "Aes Sedai nuke high king" is a pretty bad headline and I assume they had some professional standards and cared about their reputation even before they were bound by the oaths, so it's not unthinkable that for various reasons the Aes Sedai considered it unwise to use the power to battle Hawkwing directly. Since this is somewhat of a change we can't be sure, of course, but presumably the history remains somewhat similar which would imply that Hawkwing's siege began after he'd already conquered the whole of the wetlands so even though the Aes Sedai are mighty I'm not sure they can deal with being at war with the entire continent. You do raise an interesting question though and I'm wondering if perhaps the show is gonna want to make some more parallels between Elaida and Bonwhin, what with both of them getting besieged and all, maybe when Elaida starts going off the deep end we'll find out that what got Bonwhin deposed in the end is that the did want the Aes Sedai to use the power against Hawkwing's siege?

[Werthead]

In the books, it's unclear when exactly the Three Oaths are adopted but I always believed it was when the rulers of the Ten Nations gathered to sign the Compact of the Nations. That always seemed the most logical time.

During Artur Hawkwing's rule, Aes Sedai served at his side as regional governors, advisors and bureaucrats at all levels of the empire. Almost half the provinces of the Empire had Aes Sedai governors when Hawkwing abruptly turned against them, because of Ishamael's manipulations. It seems likely that the Aes Sedai may have not been in any position to launch any kind of coordinated military response until they were all forced back to Tar Valon, and at that point unleashing the Power to kill hundreds of thousands of Hawkwing's soldiers is not good PR. It's also questionable to what extent they could do that: if the assumption is that there were 2,000 Aes Sedai at the time (which seems reasonable, as there are about 1,200 Aes Sedai when the books begin and it looks like the Tower was designed to accommodate well over 3,000 Aes Sedai as a minimum at the start of the After the Breaking period), only a relatively small number were trained for large-scale, Power-boosted combat operations, and very few of the Aes Sedai sisters were remotely as strong as the modern intake we see in the books.

[fionwe1987]

2000 sisters plus their sa'angreal and their ability to link would make mince meat of a half-million strong army in a few days, especially if they have the walls of Tar Valon to give them additional protection. Sisters were generally much stronger a thousand years ago, as well. Egwene's strength level is specifically called out as the highest seen in a thousand years.

They could also do stuff that isn't outright killing, but would make the lives of the besieging soldiers miserable, like unleashing storms, swarms of insects and so on.

That said, PR is a good argument, I'm just unsure how exactly that works. If PR reasons are enough for them to basically act as if they're Oath bound anyway, at least with regard to using the Power as a weapon, what exactly did Hawkwing achieve?

On the other hand, if they sell it as a compromise the Aes Sedai took up as a way to make the Black Ajah's life difficult, but secretly, Ishamael was was behind it to allow the Blacks an awesome cover, that can work.

Another consequence of the Oaths only bring a thousand years old is that they'll have to remove the loss of agespan aspect of it. It makes no sense the Aes Sedai wouldn't notice the precipitous 50% drop in lifespan with all three Oaths coming on at once.

It would have been clever to have Hawkwing impose just the first Oath, actually, I think. That'd make more sense to me. 

[Werthead]

I'm going to guess that Hawkwing still dies before the Siege lifts and the Three Oaths were sworn by the Aes Sedai to Ishara and Souran to convince them to lift the Siege. I can't see Hawkwing-as-in-the-book ever accepting any compromise. He was too far gone under Ishamael's influence. Still, Hawkwing is a very logical choice for a future Wheel of Time Origins episode (I mean, more logical than Jerome versus the farmer, which was a weird choice for Episode 3, at least at this point), so we'll find out how that story unfolds in the show canon.

Interesting podcast here where Judkins says the original plan was 10 episodes a season and they had to recalibrate to fit everything into 8, and it was hard going from 10 to 8 hours. Also, apparently everything in the premiere would have been across 2 episodes originally. It would have been easier to have gone from a movie (which is what they'd been talking about before the Sony deal) to 8 hours. Judkins also apparently told Amazon "if you're looking for the next Game of Thrones, this isn't it," and apparently they were happy with that.

Eerk, Judkins repeats the very untrue story that GRRM was inspired by the Game of Houses in The Great Hunt to create ASoIaF. To my knowledge, he didn't even read EotW until RJ gave the cover blurb for AGoT, which was five years after he started writing AGoT.

Spoiler

Rafe does deny that Laila is a Darkfriend.

 

[Poobah]

By the way to we know who's playing Ishamael?

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

I'm going to guess that Hawkwing still dies before the Siege lifts and the Three Oaths were sworn by the Aes Sedai to Ishara and Souran to convince them to lift the Siege. I can't see Hawkwing-as-in-the-book ever accepting any compromise. He was too far gone under Ishamael's influence. Still, Hawkwing is a very logical choice for a future Wheel of Time Origins episode (I mean, more logical than Jerome versus the farmer, which was a weird choice for Episode 3, at least at this point), so we'll find out how that story unfolds in the show canon.

That would be a good change. Agreed, we'll likely hear more.

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interesting podcast here where Judkins says the original plan was 10 episodes a season and they had to recalibrate to fit everything into 8, and it was hard going from 10 to 8 hours. Also, apparently everything in the premiere would have been across 2 episodes originally. It would have been easier to have gone from a movie (which is what they'd been talking about before the Sony deal) to 8 hours. Judkins also apparently told Amazon "if you're looking for the next Game of Thrones, this isn't it," and apparently they were happy with that.

Amazon shot themselves in the foot there, then. I'm surprised he's allowed to openly reveal stuff like this. 

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Eerk, Judkins repeats the very untrue story that GRRM was inspired by the Game of Houses in The Great Hunt to create ASoIaF. To my knowledge, he didn't even read EotW until RJ gave the cover blurb for AGoT, which was five years after he started writing AGoT.

  Hide contents

Rafe does deny that Laila is a Darkfriend.

 

I've never heard that rumour. It's also ridiculous. RJ didn't invent infighting among nobles. He also didn't do a good job of depicting it. The supposedly ruthless Cairheinin and Tairens aren't given much screen time at all. The only inter-nobility war we see is in Andor,where there are all these laws and customs that prevent anything remotely similar to aSoiaF levels of brutality.

I'm surprised anyone buys such a claim, lol. 

[Rhom]

Just watched eps 2 and 3.  They are much better than the first.

[Slurktan]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

I'm going to guess that Hawkwing still dies before the Siege lifts and the Three Oaths were sworn by the Aes Sedai to Ishara and Souran to convince them to lift the Siege. I can't see Hawkwing-as-in-the-book ever accepting any compromise. He was too far gone under Ishamael's influence. Still, Hawkwing is a very logical choice for a future Wheel of Time Origins episode (I mean, more logical than Jerome versus the farmer, which was a weird choice for Episode 3, at least at this point), so we'll find out how that story unfolds in the show canon.

I

 

A possible change could be that the Seanchan didnt get the A'dams in Seanchan.  Have Artur Hawking be using them and instead of the Seanchan resulting from him sending an army to conquer instead be the result of his forces fleeing from the Westlands.  Then the Oaths would make sense as the Aes Sedai would want to show they are different than what he was doing.

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Just watched eps 2 and 3.  They are much better than the first.

I agree with that

[SpaceChampion]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

The whistling I recall, but assumed it was Mordeth. 

In episode 3, though? Where do people hear whistling there?

It's the same tune that Fain used in ep 1.  Ep 2 starts at 48 minutes into it.

I haven't found it in Ep 3, so that's probably just wrong.

 

[VigoTheCarpathian]

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Rand uses the One Power to shave in his sleep.  He's always clean-shaven because of that. 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who figured this out.  See also “balefire Brazilian wax”

[Lord Varys]

I think there is rather weird flaw in the Hawkwing story, anyway. It isn't a very convincing setting where you have an entire class of people - the Aes Sedai - as pillars of the Hawkwing regime only to everybody turning against them to degree that their purges and sieges just because of the machinations of, apparently, one evil madman.

Palpatine had an army of brainwashed clones to destroy the Jedi. Ishamael had what? Apparently just Hawkwing's ear. But Hawkwing ruled through his people, who would have developed loyalties to the Aes Sedai they were working with and under, one imagines. Even more so since many regions of should have stronger ties to the Aes Sedai for ages than, you know, they 'just despot' who conquered everything a couple decades ago.

It is the abruptness that is the problem. Overtime - say, centuries, with Hawkwing being succeeded by a bunch of lesser monarchs - such a development could make sense. But just a couple of years in the man's old age makes it appear a bit of a stretch.

That is kind of a huge letdown in the world-buidling where you have important events crept around into a centry every 1,000 years while nothing important happened in the meantime.

What Hawkwing did is akin to a king of Westeros arbitrarily deciding he would rule without the assistance or support of the great houses  - or lords in general. That wouldn't work. Pushing out an order of powerful and influential sorceresses who were a crucial part of the government - and a larger part in the general framework of the society they lived in - would be a much more difficult endeavor than that, even more so since Hawkwing himself had no magical powers, nor could Ishamael openly reveal who he was. It doesn't really matter whether the oaths were already a thing or not.

And from what we know Ishamael didn't twist him around, no? He estranged him from the Aes Sedai but he didn't turn him into a Darkfriend, or else he wouldn't be a hero of the wheel, right?

But if he could corrupt both Hawkwing and his entire governmental structure and followers to the point where they turned against the Aes Sedai, why not just also turn all the Aes Sedai to the Shadow? In a realistic scenario most - or all - of Hawking's chief advisers and lieutenants must have been Ishamael's pawns or else this wouldn't have worked. That way Ishamael should have been able to do much more than just besiege Tar Valon.

That aside, though, the idea of Hawkwing's armies enforcing those vows of the Aes Sedai makes kind of sense since it creates a scenario where the Aes Sedai are under outside threat to limit their powers to a degree, something they are less likely to do without significant outside pressure.

Although I'd say the fact that they actually do go through with those oaths strikes me as completely counter-intuitive. Only Aes Sedai oversee initiations of Accepted into full sisters, right? There are no ambassadors from the kingdoms, etc. there to watch. Who could force them to do the charade of the oaths if they didn't want to continue it? Who confirms or witnesses that the oaths are spoken and that they are binding? Nobody outside the order unless I'm mistaken.

But I digress.

Still, one other digression:

Spoiler

Is it true that the Black Ajah use the same ter'angreal to make their vows to the Dark One? If so, how stupid are the Aes Sedai that they do not keep this crucial instrument so under lock and key that random Black Ajah cannot use it for their own ceremonies? I mean, sure, sometimes a Black Ajah could be guardian of the magical artifacts if that's a job. But if the Amyrlin herself, say, kept that think under her sleeping pillow or in her closet then, well, the Black Ajah should rarely get access to it if at all.

 

[Jace, Extat]

Episode 2 was much better. So much better. It's not perfect, but I was caught off guard when the episode ended and wasn't laughing incredulously throughout. Hopefully it keeps trending upward. 

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

  Hide contents

Is it true that the Black Ajah use the same ter'angreal to make their vows to the Dark One? If so, how stupid are the Aes Sedai that they do not keep this crucial instrument so under lock and key that random Black Ajah cannot use it for their own ceremonies? I mean, sure, sometimes a Black Ajah could be guardian of the magical artifacts if that's a job. But if the Amyrlin herself, say, kept that think under her sleeping pillow or in her closet then, well, the Black Ajah should rarely get access to it if at all.

 

Well, ahem, that particular object is not one of a kind. But I'm not sure they do. 

Spoiler

After all, we see Darkfriends, in particular the Forsaken swear their oaths at Shayol Ghul.

 

[fionwe1987]

Hawkwing didn't turn all the common people against the Aes Sedai. No one in Tar Valon starved during the 20 year siege, because people kept funneling food into Tar Valon through the harbours.

As for why Hawkwing was able to do something so drastic, his superficial reason, of course, was his claim that the Aes Sedai poisoned his second wife, who herself was Aes Sedai, and deeply distrustful of Ishamael, who actually had her killed, most likely. 

It's easier to get public sympathy when you can claim assassination, and Bonwhin refused to directly refute the claim (one imagines the Black Ajah played some part in this, but probably not much, she seems to have been another Elaida in terms of thinking only Aes Sedai mattered and everyone else shouldn't dare question them).

With regard to the Oath Rod:

Spoiler

The Aes Sedai don't know the Oath Rod can be used to unbind Oaths. It's an incredibly painful thing to do, so I don't find it a stretch to imagine this wasn't ever explored by the sisters who weren't Darkfriends. 

 

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It's also ridiculous. RJ didn't invent infighting among nobles. He also didn't do a good job of depicting it.

Lol man, you're a trip. In the run up to the show, I remember trying to express this opinion and you fighting me on it :p Honestly, I think we're closer on things than we seem, perhaps we just don't communicate well. 

[Denvek]

7 hours ago, Poobah said:

By the way to we know who's playing Ishamael?

It's not listed on IMDB, but I expect they'll do a brand new casting in a later season when they need a face and voice for Ishamael and not just the Ba'alzamon mask.

Speaking of Ba'alzamon, I like that we get to see him in more dreams than just Rand's.

[Which Tyler]

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interesting podcast here where Judkins says the original plan was 10 episodes a season and they had to recalibrate to fit everything into 8, and it was hard going from 10 to 8 hours. Also, apparently everything in the premiere would have been across 2 episodes originally. It would have been easier to have gone from a movie (which is what they'd been talking about before the Sony deal) to 8 hours.

That makes a lot of sense TBH; and was a bad decision by Amazon

[Macklunkey]

My wife spent  episode 1 on her phone. Occasionally glancing up. 

By episode 3 she put her phone away.

Make of that what you will.