Who else is working with Wyman Manderly ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Among the northern lords or ladies present inside or outside of Winterfell, barring Robett Glover who has already been revealed to work with Wyman Manderly against the Boltons and the Freys, who do you think is secretly in league with the lord of White Harbor to get revenge on the treacherous Boltons and Freys and restore the Starks as the lords of Winterfell and of the North ?

The Umbers are an obvious case with Mors Umber working directly with Stannis, while Hother Umber might be waiting for the moment to strike insidd Winterfell as lady Barbrey Dustin remarked that he would gladly massacre the Freys and Boltons should he gets the chance, and Roose Bolton himself noted that Umbers aren't without cunning. The Umbers are also those who worked with the Manderlys to build a new fleet for the North as it was Bran and Ser Rrodrick who told them that they should work with the Manderlys back in A Clash of Kings during the feast at Winterfell.

Lord Ondrew Locke is an obvious choice, since he is a vassal of house Manderly and it's very unlikely that he isn't at least aware of the Manderly fleet nor eager to avenge the losses of his own during the war. The other vassals of house Manderly, at least those who really are close to them, should be helping them too, possibly they help hide the existence of the Northern fleet and the evidences of what happened to the three Freys that went to White Harbor. 

While she claims to hate Ned Stark, and that it might be true at least to an extent, lady Barbrey Dustin might be working with them too. While she has grievances toward Ned she doesn't have any reason to have a grudge toward his children but she certainly does completely hate and loathe Ramsay for the murder of her beloved nephew Domeric Bolton, she also openly despise the Freys for their treachery and the Red Wedding, having made it known that she lost men to them too, and might have a grudge toward Roose too for having not avenged Domeric's death and even making Ramsay his heir and right-hand instead. It's also possible that she went with Theon in the crypts of Winterfell to search for clues of Bran and Rickon Stark having survived and hidden in the crypts.

[Canon Claude]

I’d like to know the answer to this one, given the fact that everyone seems to have eaten the Frey pies. We know Wyman knew what they were, and cheerfully ate them because he’s got a death wish anyway, and he’s past caring in the name of avenging his son and the North. Roose was oblivious, but I wonder how many other northern lords are aware that they committed cannibalism. 

[Lord Lannister]

Sometimes I think Lady Dustin's grudge against the Starks is overstated for the benefit of the Boltons.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Sometimes I think Lady Dustin's grudge against the Starks is overstated for the benefit of the Boltons.

Her grudge is against Ned, she never said that she hated any of her children, and whatever grudge she has toward Ned it's nothing compared to her hatred and disdain for Ramsay, and she certainely strongly hates Roose too after he didn't do anything to get justice for Domeric's murder and even elevated Ramsay. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I’d like to know the answer to this one, given the fact that everyone seems to have eaten the Frey pies. We know Wyman knew what they were, and cheerfully ate them because he’s got a death wish anyway, and he’s past caring in the name of avenging his son and the North. Roose was oblivious, but I wonder how many other northern lords are aware that they committed cannibalism. 

They will resent this. Manderly is silently punishing them for accepting Bolton rule. Barbrey won’t be a fan of his. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

32 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Her grudge is against Ned, she never said that she hated any of her children, and whatever grudge she has toward Ned it's nothing compared to her hatred and disdain for Ramsay, and she certainely strongly hates Roose too after he didn't do anything to get justice for Domeric's murder and even elevated Ramsay. 

She has her own game. Roose, Stannis, Mance, Wayman, and Jon will dance soon enough. She’s clever and watches closely. She shares this personality trait with Big Walder Frey.  

[Prince of the North]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Sometimes I think Lady Dustin's grudge against the Starks is overstated for the benefit of the Boltons.

I definitely believe this and always have.  I think Lady Dustin will throw in with Manderly because she confirmed (with her little tour of the crypts with Reek/Theon) his story that Bran and Rickon hid there and must have escaped.

And, yes, I think lady Dustin is giving Reek/Theon info regarding her feelings for the Starks that she believes will very likely make its way back to the Boltons. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They will resent this. Manderly is silently punishing them for accepting Bolton rule. Barbrey won’t be a fan of his. 

I wouldn't be surprised if most of them secretly knew, and don't care. The North is turning savage to survive savage times. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

19 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I definitely believe this and always have.  I think Lady Dustin will throw in with Manderly because she confirmed (with her little tour of the crypts with Reek/Theon) his story that Bran and Rickon hid there and must have escaped.

And, yes, I think lady Dustin is giving Reek/Theon info regarding her feelings for the Starks that she believes will very likely make its way back to the Boltons. 

Do you think that her father and brother, the heads of house Ryswell, could be secretly against the Boltons too ?

[Kinola]

Perhaps the Cerwyns, since they’re closer to the Starks (they’re like, next door neighbors or something). 

[Prince of the North]

28 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Do you think that her father and brother, the heads of house Ryswell, could be secretly against the Boltons too ?

I don't see why not?  I mean, it would probably be pretty easy to ally with what seems to be the new power in the North, the Boltons, when one believes the previous power, the Starks, have been completely extinguished in the male line.  However, if they come to believe there is a male Stark heir still alive, it could easily be a game-changer, right?

Many of these Houses in the North, while perhaps not loving the Starks, have nonetheless been loyal to them for a very long time.  While no one even seems to like the Boltons at all or may even actively hate them.  

I don't know, it just seems to me that many Houses in the North would jump at virtually any chance to not live under Bolton rule?

  

[Jaenara Belarys]

20 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I definitely believe this and always have.  I think Lady Dustin will throw in with Manderly because she confirmed (with her little tour of the crypts with Reek/Theon) his story that Bran and Rickon hid there and must have escaped.

 

How is it that a missing sword is enough to confirm that they hid in the crypts? It could've been one of the tramps that were living in Winterfell that stole it, or an Ironborn who wanted a trophy or souvenir. Besides, considering that people in KL heard about Bran's fall and know how young Rickon is, I would think that a missing longsword would be more proof it's not them. They'd think that a cripple can't wield a sword and Rickon's far too young to do anything. 

[Canon Claude]

30 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:  

I don't know, it just seems to me that many Houses in the North would jump at virtually any chance to not live under Bolton rule?

  

With Ramsay as heir, who could blame them?

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

How is it that a missing sword is enough to confirm that they hid in the crypts? It could've been one of the tramps that were living in Winterfell that stole it, or an Ironborn who wanted a trophy or souvenir. 

Heh...how is anything enough "proof" of anything?  It's whatever people choose to accept as being proof or confirmation.  I believe Lady Barbrey went to the crypts to confirm what Manderly told her but I don't know for sure.  Only time will tell, I guess.  

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Heh...how is anything enough "proof" of anything?  It's whatever people choose to accept as being proof or confirmation.  

For all Manderly knows, there are are secret rooms (medieval castles did have hidden areas, after all), and being a child who loves to explore and apparently fell while climbing around Winterfell I wouldn't put it past him to have found good hiding spots. We know, being the reader that they were in the crypts, but Wex doesn't know that and he was only in WF for a month or two. No reason to be shown the crypts or where they are, after all. 

Though I do agree with your second sentence. 

[SocratesSnow]

The snowmen on the wall represent the families that are conspiring against the Boltons et al. 

 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, SocratesSnow said:

The snowmen on the wall represent the families that are conspiring against the Boltons et al. 

 

 

Which are ? I don't remember them.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Which are ? I don't remember them.

ADwD, The Turncloak

A battle was being fought in the yard; Ryswells pelting Barrowton boys with snowballs. Above, he could see some squires building snowmen along the battlements. They were arming them with spears and shields, putting iron halfhelms on their heads, and arraying them along the inner wall, a rank of snowy sentinels. "Lord Winter has joined us with his levies," one of the sentries outside the Great Hall japed … until he saw Theon's face and realized who he was talking to. Then he turned his head and spat.

...

Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights. There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them.

More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber.

...

Outside the snow was swirling, dancing. Theon groped his way to the wall, then followed it to the Battlements Gate. He might have taken the guards for a pair of Little Walder's snowmen if he had not seen the white plumes of their breath.

...

Outside the snow still fell. The snowmen the squires had built had grown into monstrous giants, ten feet tall and hideously misshapen. White walls rose to either side as he and Rowan made their way to the godswood; the paths between keep and tower and hall had turned into a maze of icy trenches, shoveled out hourly to keep them clear. It was easy to get lost in that frozen labyrinth, but Theon Greyjoy knew every twist and turning.

Interesting that Theon initially says the snowmen were built by squires but later says they are Little Walder's snowmen. This might be a hint for us about Little Walder's true loyalties or his strategy for becoming the heir to House Frey. (Little Walder, Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" and Roose's wife, Fat Walda, are all from the Crakehall line of the Frey family. Big Walder is from the Blackwood line.)

The snowmen also remind me a bit of Bran seeing the gargoyles when he climbs the wall of the old keep. It's as if the castle walls are alive, somehow, and have a plan for Bran and, later, for Theon. Recall that Theon's strategy for invading Winterfell involved climbing over the walls to get in. 

I have the feeling that Barbrey Dustin is working on behalf of the Starks and against the Boltons. Based on literary hints, I think she is acting as something of a "smith" when she gets Theon into the crypt. After making an educated guess about the "Tobho Mott = Hot Tomb" near-anagram, I realized that deaths/rebirths in ASOIAF can be like the reforging of a weapon. The  Winterfell crypt is a logical place for this kind of transformation to take place. 

In the crypt, Theon reveals to Lady Dustin his secret desire to be a Stark. This is a Pinocchio moment where Reek is transformed into Theon but also Theon (I believe) resumes his identity as the sword Ice. 

Lady Barbrey left her blood on Brandon Stark's "sword" when he bedded her. He was her first love. I think that bond with Brandon might mean that she carries some kind of "magic" knowledge of the Stark ancestral sword. She says she wants Ned's bones but Catelyn noticed that Ned's eyes and his sword were missing when the Silent Sisters laid out his bones for her to see at Riverrun. The bones were complete (along with some silver wire to hold them together) but she noticed the absence of Ned's eyes and she was distressed by the missing sword. With the pun on "ice" and "eyes," I believe the sword and the eyes are linked. And I believe that Lady Dustin somehow restores the sword (and, thus, the eyes) when she heals Theon in the crypt. She is restoring the sword to the service of House Stark, though, and Theon soon helps fArya escape from the Boltons. 

(I suspect Lady Dustin knows that Jeyne Poole is not Arya Stark, but she wants to deprive Ramsay of his bride and his false claim to be the legitimate Lord of or heir to Winterfell.) 

But back to this interesting point:

7 hours ago, SocratesSnow said:

The snowmen on the wall represent the families that are conspiring against the Boltons et al. 

If you count the snowball fight as well as the snowmen, the houses, communities and/or sigils represented are Ryswells (horse's head), Barrowtown boys (barrows are Celtic and pre-Celtic burial chambers made of stone), Lord Winter (probably a Stark allusion?), ghosts (Theon says he is one of them), Manderly (merman carrying a trident), Stout (Chevronny russet and gold), Dustin (battleaxes) and Umber (angry giant with broken silver chains) and ten-foot tall snowy giants. Many of the snowmen are unnamed sentinels and Theon says a dozen are "snowy lords". 

The potential symbolism of all these forces is rich and intriguing:

• Horses may represent a person's spirit (the horse's head is associated with Gregor Clegane beheading his horse at the Hand's Tourney) but it could also represent a chess piece. 
• Barrows are graves. Could the pelting with snowballs represent reviving the dead? Reviving them in such a way that they will be oriented toward snow? (Should we compare this to the scene where the Targaryen hall of scaled armor comes alive as Sansa and Ser Dontos pass through the hall with a flaming torch?) 
• Ghosts. Reference to Jon Snow's wolf but perhaps also to the dead Starks in the crypt.
• Merman with trident. The "under the sea" phrases from Patchface seem to imply that there is an army and a battle and rising smoke and dancing and old fish eating young fish. I think a lot of these phrases describe actions taken by House Manderly. A merman would feel quite at home under the sea. The fact that the merman in the sigil is holding a trident could imply that the House controls thing associated with the Trident River - Robert fighting Rhaegar, Catelyn's death and rebirth, things washing up on the Quiet Isle. 
• Russet (a shade of brown) and gold. I think GRRM gives us color combinations that have meaning. My current theory about brown is that it represents the cycle of earth's fertility when leaves fall to the ground and turn into rich topsoil, a necessary ingredient for seeds to grow into plants which, eventually, drop their leaves, restarting the cycle. In other words, brown is death and transformation to rebirth. A russet is also a type of potato, an edible root that is alive underground. Root vegetables are associated with Davos (onion knight) and with the Walder wards (Bran sends them a dish of root vegetables at the harvest feast). Gold is valuable stuff but also associated with the coins called gold dragons. 
• Axes for the Dustins. I hadn't thought about this before, but Asha Greyjoy tells Theon that an axe is her wedded husband. Is this symbolic of Asha being "wedded" to a Dustin? Are we supposed to compare Barbrey and Asha? In another thread, I wondered whether we were supposed to compare Rohanne Webber and the Night's King's Corpse Queen to Barbrey Dustin. Should we throw Asha into this mix? Barbrey and Asha both seem concerned with saving Theon. Theon has also lost some fingers to Ramsay, which might be an allusion to the "finger dance" game that the Ironborn play by throwing an axe. It's as if Asha has been a winner in the finger dance and Theon has been a loser. 
• An angry, liberated giant for the Umbers. We are told that giants helped to build the Wall. The broken silver chains could represent health and healing, if they are like the silver links on a maester's chain. How close is this Turncloak chapter to the chapter where Wun Wun kills Ser Patrek at the Wall? 

I like the idea that the snowmen represent forces on the side of the Starks (or in opposition to the Boltons) but I really wonder what it means that Theon says they are Little Walder's snowmen. 

[SocratesSnow]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

ADwD, The Turncloak

A battle was being fought in the yard; Ryswells pelting Barrowton boys with snowballs. Above, he could see some squires building snowmen along the battlements. They were arming them with spears and shields, putting iron halfhelms on their heads, and arraying them along the inner wall, a rank of snowy sentinels. "Lord Winter has joined us with his levies," one of the sentries outside the Great Hall japed … until he saw Theon's face and realized who he was talking to. Then he turned his head and spat.

...

Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights. There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them.

More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber.

...

Outside the snow was swirling, dancing. Theon groped his way to the wall, then followed it to the Battlements Gate. He might have taken the guards for a pair of Little Walder's snowmen if he had not seen the white plumes of their breath.

...

Outside the snow still fell. The snowmen the squires had built had grown into monstrous giants, ten feet tall and hideously misshapen. White walls rose to either side as he and Rowan made their way to the godswood; the paths between keep and tower and hall had turned into a maze of icy trenches, shoveled out hourly to keep them clear. It was easy to get lost in that frozen labyrinth, but Theon Greyjoy knew every twist and turning.

Interesting that Theon initially says the snowmen were built by squires but later says they are Little Walder's snowmen. This might be a hint for us about Little Walder's true loyalties or his strategy for becoming the heir to House Frey. (Little Walder, Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" and Roose's wife, Fat Walda, are all from the Crakehall line of the Frey family. Big Walder is from the Blackwood line.)

.....

 

17 hours ago, Seams said:

I like the idea that the snowmen represent forces on the side of the Starks (or in opposition to the Boltons) but I really wonder what it means that Theon says they are Little Walder's snowmen. 

Little walder was a squire, Ramsey's squire, and not the brightest of Freys. THe other squires for the conspiring lords also built them. Little Walder has no designs to become Lord of the Crossing, it is Big Walder that has Big Plans. 

[Seams]

12 minutes ago, SocratesSnow said:

Little walder was a squire, Ramsey's squire, and not the brightest of Freys. THe other squires for the conspiring lords also built them. Little Walder has no designs to become Lord of the Crossing, it is Big Walder that has Big Plans. 

Little Walder says that he and Big Walter will never hold the Twins so you're right that his ambitions may not involve becoming the Frey Lord, per se. He is a creepy guy, though, and we know that death isn't always an end point for a character in ASOIAF. It would not surprise me if there is an above-ground (mainstream world) Lord of the Crossing and an underground / underwater Lord of the Crossing - sort of like the Lord of Winterfell vs. Gendel and Gorne (or maybe it's the Lord Commander vs. Gendel and Gorne). 

The death of Little Walder may have promoted him to exactly the job fate had in store for him. 

And then there's this:

Quote

The way their game was played, you laid the log across the water, and one player stood in the middle with the stick. He was the lord of the crossing, and when one of the other players came up, he had to say, "I am the lord of the crossing, who goes there?" And the other player had to make up a speech about who they were and why they should be allowed to cross. The lord could make them swear oaths and answer questions. They didn't have to tell the truth, but the oaths were binding unless they said "Mayhaps," so the trick was to say "Mayhaps" so the lord of the crossing didn't notice. Then you could try and knock the lord into the water and you got to be lord of the crossing, but only if you'd said "Mayhaps." Otherwise you were out of the game. The lord got to knock anyone in the water anytime he pleased, and he was the only one who got to use a stick.

In practice, the game seemed to come down to mostly shoving, hitting, and falling into the water, along with a lot of loud arguments about whether or not someone had said "Mayhaps." Little Walder was lord of the crossing more often than not. (ACoK, Bran I)