Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: To clear In the situation where running way isn’t an viable option. No, when it's not the only option, and if you're close to an active shooter is reasonable to think you may be better off advancing towards them to get the gun rather than turning, running away and possibly getting shot in the back. If I'm ten feet from someone with a gun in an open space, I may actually be better off going towards them than running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Grabbing someone’s gun ... equal throwing a plastic bag at them. You're right, those ARE the same thing! 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I think he was more afraid of the men who’d beat him blunt objects and try to take his gun. That can be pretty scary even without the inclusion of a gun or a plastic. They'd already beaten him? Huh. That's interesting. 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Thank you. No, thank you! Selective editing is totally a reasonable way to have conversations with people on message boards. I'll do it too and see if you think that's useful! 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: But he wasn’t openly-carrying. His firearm was concealed in his car. Sorry, are you saying that Philando Castile, who was a legal gun owner in possession of his legal gun, and was telling the police precisely that he has a gun in the manner that the NRA instructed...was somehow MORE of a threat than someone openly carrying a gun they did not have a legal ownership of? And the logic is because Castile's gun couldn't be seen, but Rittenhouse is less of a threat because he has a gun openly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 48 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: You did, but I don't expect someone like you to particularly own up to what you said. You omitted the word "maybe" and changed the passive tense to the first person. Which altered what I meant. 48 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: We already did, and you already didn't, so I said I was happy to agree on this point. Still am. Maybe you'd rather argue? 48 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: They are, however, one of the only people who have a right to feel safe and can reasonably expect to have nothing happen to them. None of us can see the future and the world is dangerous for everybody. Including cops. Including Kyle Rittenhouse. 48 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: A person of average courage and virtue? So by that token literally every other person in Kenosha that night was above average. None of them found themselves in Rittenhouse's situation. And it seems to me that quite a few of the people he directly encountered that night behaved worse than he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said: And it seems to me that quite a few of the people he directly encountered that night behaved worse than he did. He killed two people and badly wounded a third. That's literally worse than anything anyone else did that night. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: See how different the treatment was compared to a white kid telling a cop he was involved in a shooting while carrying a giant ass gun and being told to just go away? It’s really annoying when people use a couple of individual cases as evidence an extreme bias in the way an institution acts rather than just use the mountain of studies that can support it. to smugly go “this particular white individual wouldn’t be alive if he was black” is an overly broad assumption. Black people on average are more likely to be abused when dealing with the police. But some white-people can/do get abused too. I can find individual instances of white people being abused by the police or have excessive force applied to them to point where they died and contrast it to individual cases where black people had an altercation with LE and weren’t abused or even helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: He killed two people and badly wounded a third. So how far should they gotten to beat Rittenhouse again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 20 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: Sorry, are you saying that Philando Castile, who was a legal gun owner in possession of his legal gun, and was telling the police precisely that he has a gun in the manner that the NRA instructed...was somehow MORE of a threat than someone openly carrying a gun they did not have a legal ownership of? Uh no? Just that he wasn’t open-carrying. Fan’s inquiry was about cases where law-enforcement killed black people for law-fully open carrying. Which Castile wasn’t doing because he wasn’t open-carrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: It’s really annoying when people use a couple of individual cases as evidence an extreme bias in the way an institution acts rather than just use the mountain of studies that can support it. to smugly go “this particular white individual wouldn’t be alive if he was black” is an overly broad assumption. Black people on average are more likely to be abused when dealing with the police. But some white-people can/do get abused too. I can find individual instances of white people being abused by the police or have excessive force applied to them to point where they died and contrast it to individual cases where black people had an altercation with LE and weren’t abused or even helped. A couple of individual cases? Try four fucking hundred years of untold numerous cases. And it's not smug to point out that in all likelihood a black kid would be treated differently than a white kid with a gun. This is common sense backed up by a mountain of evidence. 11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: So how far should they gotten to beat Rittenhouse again? Was he ever really beaten? You know he wasn't, and there's no evidence to say he would have absolutely been beaten if he didn't kill multiple people. You just take it as a given that he would have been because it's the only way to justify the messed up logic you've been applying the entire time. Again, as DMC pointed out, a survivor of Rittenhouse's even said he had no intent of beating him up, just disarming him, and we can guess that if Rittenhouse had killed him too his defense team would have argued that his motive was to 100% kill Rittenhouse. That's again why there's the incentive to kill people you shoot at, because you can control their narrative while they're in the grave. I'm sure the two people he killed would have testified that they didn't mean to kill or seriously harm him either if they had gotten a chance to live and tell their side of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Varys black is using the, “ when did you last beat your wife”? Kind of argument. It’s bad faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said: Varys black is using the, “ when did you last beat your wife”? Kind of argument. It’s bad faith. I got a board vacation for asking someone that once lol. I don't think that's what he's doing though. 30 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: It’s really annoying when people use a couple of individual cases as evidence an extreme bias in the way an institution acts rather than just use the mountain of studies that can support it. to smugly go “this particular white individual wouldn’t be alive if he was black” is an overly broad assumption. Black people on average are more likely to be abused when dealing with the police. But some white-people can/do get abused too.. Yeah but Rittenhouse tried to turn himself in, with a gun in hand, and the cops told him to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: A couple of individual cases? Yes you’ve listed a handful of cases and gone “see” as by themselves your point is proven. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Try four fucking hundred years of untold numerous cases. Calm down dude. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: And it's not smug to point out that in all likelihood a black kid would be treated differently than a white kid with a gun. It’s smug to pretend as if in this particular case it was a certainty. Rittenhouse wasn’t the only armed person that night and white people aren’t likely to have been the only people armed. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Was he ever really beaten? You know he wasn't, and there's no evidence to say he would have absolutely been beaten I guess a hard shove and hit a with a blunt object by a couple men chasing you could reasonably be interpreted as not a beating. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: there's no evidence to say he would have absolutely been beaten if he didn't kill multiple people. Oh he was only chased and struck after he killed someone? where is that in the videos? 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Again, as DMC pointed out, a survivor of Rittenhouse's even said he had no intent of beating him up, just disarming him, Possibly so. Though Rittenhouse can’t conceivably read his mind. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: we can guess that if Rittenhouse had killed him too his defense team would have argued that his motive was to 100% kill Rittenhouse. Possibly. 20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: That's again why there's the incentive to kill people you shoot at, because you can control their narrative while they're in the grave. I'm sure the two people he killed would have testified that they didn't mean to kill or seriously harm him either Sure they probably would have; but can you see how an armed individual (legal gun-owner or not) could reasonably fear that they’re intents aren’t benign? It’s kinda really, stupid to get in physically hostile altercation with someone visibly armed. Especially clear when they’re scared of you(clues to this would be trying to runaway from you.): 13 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said: Varys black is using the, “ when did you last beat your wife”? Kind of argument. It’s bad faith. Says a person who randomly pontificates on how killing bad as if anyone here has pontificated killing is always good. Just now, 1066 Larry said: Yeah but Rittenhouse tried to turn himself in, with a gun in hand, and the cops told him to go away. Can you concede the possibility of factors such as them not seeing him shoot anyone, didn’t hear him shout he shot anyone, and they were busy trying to disperse the crowd influencing how they treated him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Uh no? Just that he wasn’t open-carrying. Fan’s inquiry was about cases where law-enforcement killed black people for law-fully open carrying. Which Castile wasn’t doing because he wasn’t open-carrying. Sorry, should we have brought up Tamir Rice, who was openly carrying a toy? 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Yes you’ve listed a handful of cases and gone “see” as by themselves your point is proven. How many police officers have actually been convicted of any actual extralegal killings in the US? It's really easy to count - you can go ahead and find it. The number is absurdly small. 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Rittenhouse wasn’t the only armed person that night and white people aren’t likely to have been the only people armed. Doesn't that make the argument that he acted of average virtue even more unlikely, given that he was literally the only one reported actually shooting anyone else? I mean, we have reports of several people openly carrying, even reports of gunfire - but Rittenhouse was literally the only one who actually shot another person - and he did it three times. 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I guess a hard shove and hit a with a blunt object by a couple men chasing you could reasonably be interpreted as not a beating. I'm trying to imagine pub culture if England had guns what things would be like if people feared for their lives because of a hard shove or being hit by a skateboard. 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Sure they probably would have; but can you see how an armed individual (legal gun-owner or not) could reasonably fear that they’re intents aren’t benign? It’s kinda really, stupid to get in physically hostile altercation with someone visibly armed. Especially clear when they’re scared of you(clues to this would be trying to runaway from you.): Alternately, it's a good idea to get into a physical altercation with someone fleeing the scene of a shooting because you may be saving a lot of people's lives. Especially if they're running away, because chances are good they're going to go shoot someone else - which actually happened here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Just now, Kalsandra said: I'm trying to imagine pub culture if England had guns what things would be like if people feared for their lives because of a hard shove or being hit by a skateboard. I'm thinking of all the videos of anti-vaxxers who got punched after starting shit with people who were apparently fully justified in shooting the person who punched them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: Sorry, should we have brought up Tamir Rice, who was openly carrying a toy? No. 3 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: How many police officers have actually been convicted of any actual extralegal killings in the US? At least a few I imagine. 4 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: Doesn't that make the argument that he acted of average virtue even more unlikely, given that he was literally the only one reported actually shooting anyone else? No. 5 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: I mean, we have reports of several people openly carrying, even reports of gunfire - but Rittenhouse was literally the only one who actually shot another person - and he did it three times. Sure. 7 minutes ago, Kalsandra said: I'm trying to imagine pub culture if England had guns what things would be like if people feared for their lives because of a hard shove or being hit by a skateboard. 14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I just don’t think a reasonable actor would strike, chase, charge a visibly armed person when they’re trying to get away from you. I hope you don’t do a Tim Pool and do a comparison to how people act in movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, TrueMetis said: I'm thinking of all the videos of anti-vaxxers who got punched after starting shit with people who were apparently fully justified in shooting the person who punched them. You would give Rittenhouse a medal if he was black and he shot people you deem nazis under the same circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You would give Rittenhouse a medal if he was black and he shot people you deem nazis under the same circumstances. Yes again, you keep saying that like it's a gotcha. It's not. We've established this. It's really weird that you keep bringing this up when just a few pages ago you were mad at the idea people wouldn't change their opinion on the use of force in different circumstances. Can you make up your damn mind? All I'm really getting from you is a single minded desire to protect the poor white boy's feelings from the big bad internet people, regardless of how incoherent you need to be to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: You would give Rittenhouse a medal if he was black and he shot people you deem nazis under the same circumstances. You mean "deem" as Nazis for doing things like yelling Jews will not replace us, or being Nazis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: He killed two people and badly wounded a third. That's literally worse than anything anyone else did that night. FFS. Whether or not he was legally, or morally, justified in shooting to defend himself, does not depend on how many other people died within an arbitrarily designated frame of time and location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, TrueMetis said: Yes Alright just wanted to have this clarified once more. 6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said: their opinion on the use of force in different circumstances. That wouldn’t be significantly different circumstances. Murder doesn’t suddenly become not murder because the person killed has views you rightfully find disgusting. If you go out and shoot a member of the proud boys in the head at a protest when they’re in that moment physically threatening you or others you should be imprisoned. 3 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said: You mean "deem" as Nazis for doing things like yelling Jews will not replace us, or being Nazis? Like Being a member of the proud boys who may not be nazis but are certainly a white-supremacist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Like Being a member of the proud boys who may not be nazis but are certainly a white-supremacist. I like how we're now splitting hairs between white supremacists and nazis. "Well, the nazis certainly have better fashion sense than the Klan, but at least with the Klan there's no chance you'll have to shave your head." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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