Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[The Mourning Knight]

I’m going to go easy on this one, but I can’t help but think of Doran Martell’s plot against Tywin Lannister. Unless I’m missing something, the most proactive steps he took were in positioning Viserys and Daenerys for a reclamation of the the throne. And then, he did very little to water that tree (the Targaryen children we’re not hidden or safe) or harvest it’s fruit; Was Doran a proponent of the Dany/Drogo wedding? Not advantageous for Dorne.

Reinstalling the Targaryens is fine and good. I just think Doran could have taken a better route. Or done more to secure the Targaryen return. 

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, The Mourning Knight said:

I’m going to go easy on this one, but I can’t help but think of Doran Martell’s plot against Tywin Lannister. Unless I’m missing something, the most proactive steps he took were in positioning Viserys and Daenerys for a reclamation of the the throne. And then, he did very little to water that tree (the Targaryen children we’re not hidden or safe) or harvest it’s fruit; Was Doran a proponent of the Dany/Drogo wedding? Not advantageous for Dorne.

Reinstalling the Targaryens is fine and good. I just think Doran could have taken a better route. Or done more to secure the Targaryen return. 

I'm of the same mind as you; Doran didn't do enough to make sure his plan came to fruition, or even to make sure Viserys was a suitable match for Arianne.

This article is a chronicle of every misstep Doran took, before and during the books.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm of the same mind as you; Doran didn't do enough to make sure his plan came to fruition, or even to make sure Viserys was a suitable match for Arianne.

This article is a chronicle of every misstep Doran took, before and during the books.

When characters say Doran is a great planner and player of the game, it must be because he's a genius by Martell standards.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

When characters say Doran is a great planner and player of the game, it must be because he's a genius by Martell standards.

There are a couple things that don't make sense about Doran; his planning skills is one. The other is how he and Jon Arryn were able to negotiate a truce between the Iron Throne and House Martell, when evidence shows that something as simple as the return of bones isn't enough to end a war (read: Ned Stark), which Jon did for Elia.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

There are a couple things that don't make sense about Doran; his planning skills is one. The other is how he and Jon Arryn were able to negotiate a truce between the Iron Throne and House Martell, when evidence shows that something as simple as the return of bones isn't enough to end a war (read: Ned Stark), which Jon did for Elia.

Doran could have tried to keep the war going on, but as he pointed out Dorne would have been isolated and it would have been useless to try to support Viserys' claim at this point with Dornish armies being unable to do anything to put Viserys on the throne, with Dornish armies being too weak and less efficient outside of Dorne to make a real difference, also his own relucdance about risking the lives of his people and perhaps the feeling that his family and people had lost and suffered enough by this point must have played in his decision. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Though to be fair to Doran, dornish are lucky so far that they have a prince like him, because I dare not imagine the damage and casualties thag they would have with Oberyn or another bellicose or naive prince who would have agreed to the plans proposed by the Sand Snakes.

[Arthur Peres]

Dorne and it's relation with the Targs is soo weird.

They are the last to join the seven kingdoms and the ones that resist the dragons the most, t, when the Targs fell, they were not in good terms, Aerys was very offensive to them with his comments about Elia, then they are dragged into a conflit after the prince insulted Elia in the biggest tournament and kidnaped a mistress, to make matters even worse Aerys takes her as hostage with her kids.

The most unpopular action a Dorne ruler could take, is to support a the Lannister regime after the assassination of Elia and her kids, the second worst is to support a Targ. Doran did or is doing both...Not to mention his  refuse to take action after the death of Oberyn... at this point is kind surprising Arianne didn't have the support to overthrow him.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Arthur Peres

[Craving Peaches]

All the Dorne stuff confuses me as well. Why does Doran seem to think that a Targaryen restoration is part of their vengeance? The Targaryens treated them awfully too - If Aerys hadn't been using Elia as a hostage she could have been safe in Dorne. It looks to me like the Targaryens were the second worse house to them after the Lannisters. I don't get why Doran is still trying to put them on the throne rather than just declaring independence.

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not to mention his  refuse to take action after the death of Oberyn

To be fair Oberyn wasn't exactly murdered, he died in a trial by combat he himself volunteered in, at the end of the day he got himself killed. People were riled up about it anyway but it wasn't worth starting a war for.

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

at this point is kind surprising Arianne didn't have the support to overthrow him.

If I recall correctly she was trying to crown Myrcella not overthrow Doran, a far riskier plot as it would have had almost all the rest of Westeros fighting against Dorne, I'm not surprised she didn't get that much support because it was a stupid plan that most likely would never work.

[Arthur Peres]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If I recall correctly she was trying to crown Myrcella not overthrow Doran, a far riskier plot as it would have had almost all the rest of Westeros fighting against Dorne, I'm not surprised she didn't get that much support because it was a stupid plan that most likely would never work.

You're right, but at this point Doran proved to be less worthy of following than a lame goose.

His vassals should see him for the coward that he is and do to him what the Reynes did to the toothless lion. He is spinless.

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

His vassals should see him for the coward that he is and do to him what the Reynes did to the toothless lion. He is spinless.

To be honest the whole situation feels a bit odd to me, all the Martell related characters save Ellaria and Quentyn seem unbalanced - they are either far too rash like Arianne or are Doran and really cautious. All the other Dornish lords must be more level headed and calm like Doran is. I don't really get it either because he would loose a lot of face for letting Oberyn's death go 'unpunished' (even if it was Oberyn's own fault). Unless every lord in Dorne is aware of Doran's master plan.

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Unless every lord in Dorne is aware of Doran's master plan.

Given the fact that even his family and heir was unware I find it hard to be the case.

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be honest the whole situation feels a bit odd to me, all the Martell related characters save Ellaria and Quentyn seem unbalanced - they are either far too rash like Arianne or are Doran and really cautious.

I don't think they are rash for the standards of Westeros. Tywin response to the Tyrion arrest/kidnap is much rasher for example.

They are only taking actions after their coward lord refuses to do so. Tywin for example acted similar after insult against his family and inaction of his lord father.

The dornish lords not going rogue or questioning him is what is weird. He is doing everything he can to lose face time and time again for 16 years.

[Angel Eyes]

There are a lot of things wrong with Doran's plots regarding the Targaryens.

Let's start with Viserys.

So Doran has Oberyn go to Braavos and meet with Ser Willem Darry to set up a betrothal between Viserys and Arianne. Five years later, Ser Willem croaks. Doran could have had Oberyn escort the now unmoored Viserys and Daenerys to Tyrosh, whose daughter had been fostered in Sunspear, fulfilling his end of the pact with the Archon by having Arianne meet her betrothed. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No, especially since Oberyn's travels were well-known to the royal court and would not seem out of the ordinary. Viserys did not have to cross the Narrow Sea at this point, but he should at least meet his intended and vice versa. At the very least they could have started a correspondence. Instead, Doran does nothing when he had no excuse. His justification that Mellario didn't want to lose another child to fostering as she lost Quentyn is bullshit; as an alternative, why not have Oberyn escort the exiled Targaryens to Norvos instead? That way, Mellario could take Arianne with her, the intendeds meet or could at least correspond. The result of Doran's inaction? Viserys degenerates into a paranoid, cruel wreck, the type no man would want for his son-in-law, with no skills to rule or even to take the throne he so wanted. And so ended the Beggar King, crowned with gold.

[The Mourning Knight]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

All the Dorne stuff confuses me as well. Why does Doran seem to think that a Targaryen restoration is part of their vengeance? The Targaryens treated them awfully too - If Aerys hadn't been using Elia as a hostage she could have been safe in Dorne. It looks to me like the Targaryens were the second worse house to them after the Lannisters. I don't get why Doran is still trying to put them on the throne rather than just declaring independence.

I can see why Doran would back a Targaryen restoration over independence. IF everything went according to plan……

The houses would be joined so Dorne could easily enjoy preferential treatment. With independence comes the likelihood that each new generation will bring a monarch who tries to reconquer Dorne. Most lords are trying to “marry-up”, so wedding your daughter to the king is like the ultimate betrothal.

If the ruin of Tywin Lannister is really Doran’s main objective, it’s also a good option, since the Lannister’s are dug so deep into the Baratheon claim. It would be hard to move against Tywin without moving against the crown.

And despite Aerys, the Martells and Targaryens ostensibly had a good relationship. At least they had the makings for one. In light of the most recent conflict, if Doran helped put the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne, there is little you could imagine Viserys could look back at and harbour resentment.

All this aside, I don’t mean to insist a Targaryen restoration is the absolute best course of action, but I think it has the potential to be a great move for Doran’s house, and it is more than coherent. But if there isn’t something that that has yet to be revealed, Doran Martell is doing a lousy job of carrying it out.

All he’s done is secretly agree to a marriage, and for the last 15 years been a negligent future father in law. It’s hard for me to draw a line between this and his claim that he has been working at Tywin’s demise. That’s like owning an empty lot of land for 15 years and telling people that you’ve been building a house. 

I just have so many questions. Why wasn’t he protecting his investment in the Targaryens? Did he have any say or input in Danny’s betrothal to Drogo?  That was a waste of a marriage in my opinion. Why wasn’t Doran trying to repair relations with the Reach? The Tyrell’s were the only one of the great houses not totally complicit and utterly invested in the betrayal of house Targaryen. They would have been an excellent ally (crucial even) in a rebellion. Why send Quentyn on such a “secret” mission, only to openly declare for Daenerys… when Daenerys is not doing anything to suggest she plans on visiting Westeros any time soon? Like, the jig is up at this point; house Martell is now in open rebellion. Was Doran really banking on the secrecy of Dany’s court? 

Crazy…

[BalerionTheCat]

There are plenty of bad plans. I agree with most of what is said in this thread.

But the are plans with some logic or good intent, but which go wrong. And there are stupid plans from the start.

For the later, and for her whole contribution, I would name Cersei: Rearming the Faith, Denying the Iron Bank, Framing Margaery and aggravating the Tyrells, Cuckolding Robert, Doing everything to have Maggy's prophecy to happen, that is risking her chlidren.

[Nevets]

With all due respect to Doran, he's got a couple of problems.  The first is that Robert is simply too damned popular, and Jon Arryn is a good administrator.  Westeros has been at peace and very prosperous for the last 10-15 years.  Nobody is going to want to rock that boat.  If Doran takes any real action, he will have zero support and get stomped on, hard.

His second problem is Viserys.  The guy is a leaky vessel to put hopes into.  He couldn't lead a marching band, much less a marching army.  Arianne could be the effective power, with Viserys as figurehead, but even meeting at this point would be too risky.  Plus Viserys is so unstable he would probably do something stupid if he knew he had Dorne's support.  And Dorne can't win a war and Doran knows it.

Once Arryn and Robert die and war breaks out, he is free to act, somewhat.  Unfortunately, Viserys has managed to get himself killed, so Quentyn has to pick up the pieces.  By the way, I doubt he had any involvement with the marriage to Drogo.  That takes things out of his hands, and could easily lead to failure and the destruction of the Targaryens, and his hopes.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nevets

[SeanF]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:59 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I still don’t understand Arianne’s plot, and I don’t see how a grown royal could fail to think more than a few weeks ahead. It really makes her look like a dumbass. 
 

Doran is probably the ruler we’d all like living under if we were small folk, since he kept Dorne out the war and fairly prosperous. If he committed to that, he’d be golden.  The problem is he also wants revenge, and his plans for that have been totally bungled.

Ned going to Cersei was dumb, but it was done more out of fear of what would happen to Tommen and Myrcella than part of a greater plan. Ned was acting on his humanity here, so I don’t consider it a bad political move so much as an act of mercy that went wrong.

Arianne’s plan is clear to me.  Myrcella will just be used as a puppet, to clear her own path to power in Dorne.  Myrcella could always be sent back to Cersei, in due course.

[SeanF]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:44 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I am surprised that no one has talked about Morion Martell and his utterly retarded plan to attack the Stormlands via the sea as revenge for the defeat and death of the Vulture King, with him and his fleet ending destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons' dragons in the only conflict in ASOIAF history where one side was annihilated while the other suffered no casualty at all.

Not only he was going to war for a stupid reason while his father had wisely avoided to intervene and risk war with the Iron Throne, but he moronly discarded every asset and advantage he and Dorne had to try to invade the Stormlands by sea which was not totally stupid not only because of how vulnerable a fleet would be to dragons and their fire but because it was very unlikely that his efforts to build a fleet for an invasion, while dornish had little lumber and naval expertise and so would need lots of time and help from essosi pirates and shipwrights to build and manoeuver their fleet, wouldn't be noticed by the Iron Throne's intelligence. 

And of course Jaeherys not only heard about Morion's project long before he could act on it, but to add salt to injury he learned it from sources directly present in Morion's court. When Morion's fleet finally moved it was intercepted and utterly destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons Aemon and Baelon on their dragons in the only war of ASOIAF with no casualty on one side ever, finally giving the Targaryens revenge on Dorne and the Martells after Aegon's failed invasion of Dorne.

And it seems that Morion has reincarnated himself in present day in the person of Obara Sand if her plan to avenge her father, Oberyn Martell, is anything to goes by.

 

There’s one i too many in Morion 

[SeanF]

The Greyjoys are probably the most stupid family of all.

Remember the guy who thought it a really great idea to cut off the lips and eyelids of his own mother, a Lannister.

What could possibly go right when the Lannister army sought revenge?

[Craving Peaches]

I agree completely about how stupid Obara's plan is. She wants to attack a well defended, wealthy city, and burn it. Disregarding the fact she has no plan on how to accomplish this at all, her reasons for the attack are also...lacking, to say the least. Her justification seems to be 'Well my mother was from this city and I don't like her so I don't like the city. I'm going to throw away thousands of innocent lives, including those of my own countrymen, because...' She doesn't even talk about gaining wealth or anything.

Now I know she seems to not care about the logistics of the plan. But how is she actually planning on getting there? Going by sea is not a good idea as an attack on a Tyrell bannerman would mean the Redwyne fleet would come to defend, and the Martells don't have the strength to fight them. Not to mention she'd be breaking the King's peace, so the royal fleet would most likely be involved as well. As for attacking by land, even if everyone in Dorne supports her idiotic venture, at most she would have  ~25,000 spears. That's against the ~10,000 strong Oldtown city watch, who have an advantage because they are defending, not to mention the other Tyrell bannermen who would likely come to their defence, and the armies of the crown who would come because she broke the King's Peace. The advantages the Dornish army has are lost when they leave Dorne and are on the offensive.

All the Sand Snakes must by into the exaggeration of Dorne's strength but even so...