Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

We already saw signs of them being not so loyal and contemplating the idea of switching sides during Arya's chapters at Harrenhal before Robb's affair and marriage with Jeyne Westerling. 

If that's already not taking in account how Walder earned his nlckname. 

If they came to believe that Robb was going to be on the losing side regardless, I have no doubt that they would have turned their coats.

Pretty sure those Arya chapters take place after Robb got married. The Freys in those chapters talk about being betrayed at one point. I do believe in the earlier parts of that chapter, they do talk to Roose about how Robb should surrender, now that Stannis has lost, so I see what you're saying.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I feel like Robb's deal with the Freys in the first place was a bad deal and very one sided. They get a royal marriage and betrothal in exchange for doing what they were legally and morally obliged to do by default, coming to the defence of their liege lord Hoster and not impeding his allies. And Robb has to take the deal because somehow the Twins are the only bridge there?

If I were Robb, I would have married the Frey, the moment the pact was signed. Walder, being the clever jerk that he is, made sure that it would only happen after the war. I WONDER WHY, lol

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I rank her ever so slightly higher because she realises the Old Way is stupid.

I think her plan in the kingsmoot is soo dumb that we can say for certain, she learned from Balon...All the ideas in the kingsmoot could be argued as the worst plan in the series, and is hilarious...

Balon started this bs, by going into war with the only other person that is willing to make a alliance with him, reconize his titles, and has the same objective of breaking free from the Iron Throne. Also the place where his navy would be the lesser effective... great start.

Then after his death we have the dumbest ideas presented to us in the kingsmoot

Victarion dumber than a sheep wants to stay fighting a losing war with no idea whatsoever to how to turn things around.

Asha comes next with the great idea of "lets ally with the people that we are attacking right now... we betrayed them, invaded them, stabed them in the back, the leadership that try to ally us is dead and the current leader that own it's position to the lions, we will convince him to change to our side (because we are soo trusty worthy allys as current events prove...), we will also still try to keep the lands that we took from them, and the tools for such a great deal? the nephews of this minor lord... of course they won't keep fighting us, it's not like lords kept fighting when the family of his vassals were hostages... Roose a cold blooded psycho that enjoys torture will certanly care for the life of boys he has no ties to"...

Then Euron comes next with a even dumber plan... We cannot even defeat the northems... let's ignore this fact and attack everyone else too, and I will get dragons by marrying a girl that neither me or you guys ever saw, she is also very anti-slavery, but I'm sure she will be fine we our thralls... she has a great claim, dragons and do not really need us, but I will seduce her, marry her and use her... she is just on the other side of the world and is not clear that we can even get there in the first place, but hey... I'm your man for the job.

Honestly those ideas are soo bad, that the guy that wanted to jump on the sea searching for a place that probably does not even exist trying to emulate a discount Nymeria is the smartest person in the island.

There must be something in the water there. Theon even after the torture of Ramsey is probably the most sane one there...

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Arthur Peres said:

There must be something in the water there. Theon even after the torture of Ramsey is probably the most sane one there...

And Theon was away from the Islands the longest...

Victarion is so stupid I find him entertaining. The others are just stupid.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Honestly those ideas are soo bad, that the guy that wanted to jump on the sea searching for a place that probably does not even exist trying to emulate a discount Nymeria is the smartest person in the island.

I'd find it so funny if he was telling the truth and no one believes him. They all attack and die due to their dumb plans and stupidity, meanwhile my man Gylbert Farwynd is living the high life on Bermudos or whatever he calls the new land.

[Craving Peaches]

So I was doing a quick search and one of the candidates suggested for the oily black stone is uraninite, which apart from being radioactive also contains lead, so I conclude that the Ironborn, or at least whoever sits on the Seastone Chair, is being poisoned.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I think her plan in the kingsmoot is soo dumb that we can say for certain, she learned from Balon...All the ideas in the kingsmoot could be argued as the worst plan in the series, and is hilarious...

Balon started this bs, by going into war with the only other person that is willing to make a alliance with him, reconize his titles, and has the same objective of breaking free from the Iron Throne. Also the place where his navy would be the lesser effective... great start.

Then after his death we have the dumbest ideas presented to us in the kingsmoot

Victarion dumber than a sheep wants to stay fighting a losing war with no idea whatsoever to how to turn things around.

Asha comes next with the great idea of "lets ally with the people that we are attacking right now... we betrayed them, invaded them, stabed them in the back, the leadership that try to ally us is dead and the current leader that own it's position to the lions, we will convince him to change to our side (because we are soo trusty worthy allys as current events prove...), we will also still try to keep the lands that we took from them, and the tools for such a great deal? the nephews of this minor lord... of course they won't keep fighting us, it's not like lords kept fighting when the family of his vassals were hostages... Roose a cold blooded psycho that enjoys torture will certanly care for the life of boys he has no ties to"...

Then Euron comes next with a even dumber plan... We cannot even defeat the northems... let's ignore this fact and attack everyone else too, and I will get dragons by marrying a girl that neither me or you guys ever saw, she is also very anti-slavery, but I'm sure she will be fine we our thralls... she has a great claim, dragons and do not really need us, but I will seduce her, marry her and use her... she is just on the other side of the world and is not clear that we can even get there in the first place, but hey... I'm your man for the job.

Honestly those ideas are soo bad, that the guy that wanted to jump on the sea searching for a place that probably does not even exist trying to emulate a discount Nymeria is the smartest person in the island.

There must be something in the water there. Theon even after the torture of Ramsey is probably the most sane one there...

I think that Euron knows that his plan of conquering Westeros cannot work, and I don't think he ever truly intended to do that, I think that Euron is more of a chaos bringer and that his speech was more to impress and charm the Ironborn, for who he has made his disdain very clear. 

He certainely knew that his people are so stupid and delusionnal that he could easily win them over by appealing to their delusions of grandeur and reaving instincts, using a magical item that they had never imagined before to make them believe it was possible. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

He certainely knew that his people are so stupid and delusionnal that he could easily win them over

I have no doubt that Euron is exploiting them all. Euron seems quite intelligent compared to the rest of the Ironborn. However he makes up for his lack of stupidity by being crazy. He himself may turn out to have delusions of grandeur.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I have no doubt that Euron is exploiting them all. Euron seems quite intelligent compared to the rest of the Ironborn. However he makes up for his lack of stupidity by being crazy. He himself may turn out to have delusions of grandeur.

I'm sure he does, Euron is genuinely cunning and is far smarter than his siblings but he surely isn't as smart or powerful as he thinks he is.

Though I doubt his ambitions are in the usual areas of power or applications of power. I think he's more interested by the amount of deaths and destruction he can cause than by ruling.

[Reekazoid]

On 8/9/2022 at 12:06 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I will have to point fingers at the Starks. Jon, Robb, Cat, and Sansa were all bad upstairs.  I’ll pick on Sansa this time. Going to Cersei, spilling the beans to convince the Lannister to force her daddy to let her stay with Joffrey at KL. 

That was stupid, but it was dramatic teen stupid.  As a point of order I would submit that this specific Sansa gem fails to qualify as a "plan".  Seems more like naive desperation.

[Reekazoid]

On 8/9/2022 at 7:46 AM, Maia said:

If Stannis acting on Jon's advice could convince the mountain clans to fight Boltons for him, it should have been a snap for Jon himself to recruit them to help protect the Wall. Particularly since they'd be the first to feel the brunt of whatever comes through it. Frankly, them not running to support NW   when Mance Rayder's invasion was imminent is a huge plothole.

The Mountain Clans are arguably the Northerners least affected by Bolton savagery, and also the ones most difficult for the Boltons to retaliate against.  With winter just around the corner, it would seem an acceptable risk to engage in a little guerrilla warfare.  Any of the men who make it back from Winterfell alive to their mountain holdfasts are either going to live through the winter or get killed by Others, but not by Boltons.

Also the Mountain Clans, being closest to the Wall, are the Northerners that have the most traffic with the Free Folk and Night's Watch rangers.  I think it is a safe bet that they know what is coming from the other side.  As far as transmural threats go, they would certainly know that the wildings- even the Weeper - are the least of their worries.  

You can always trust someone to act in their own self-interest.  Pretty much everyone except for Bowen Marsh understands that the Others are the bigger threat, and that the wildings and men of the realm will unite to fight them for their own survival.   Jon, Mance, and Stannis already proved that it can be done.  

Poor Bowen Marsh must be so traumatized by fear that is brain can't even wrap around what he has seen regarding Wights and other supernatural threats, and so he has retreated so deep into himself that he keeps clinging to the past ideals and expectations.  Poor man, to be so ruled by fear and desperation that his best plan is to freeze up the tunnels in the Wall, and hunker down in the tunnels like a rabbit.   This is even after he realized (sorry, his brain is broken, after he saw but failed to process) that wildlings a-plenty came over the wall and attacked Castle Black... without using the tunnels at all. The tunnels that poor, unhinged, terrified Bowen Marsh wants to seal up, for safety against wildlings.  Poor Bowen Marsh, to be so inarticulate that his strongest argument in the face of compelling, logical, well-reasoned planning that contradicts his tiny, terror-bounded worldview, is to stab with a knife.

Yes the worst plan in the series is Bowen "hide like a snowshoe rabbit" Marsh's plan to survive the Others by freezing shut the tunnels through the wall and relegating all the warm wildling bodies (with attached spear-and-sword arms no less!) to starvation and death by exposure. Poor feckless Bowen Marsh, so frightened, so weak, so inarticulate, so unimaginative, will therefore *encourage* the wildlings that he would freeze out to go even more south and pillage the North for supplies and shelter.   His biggest fear in the whole world - wildlings running roughshod over the Realm... will be the guaranteed outcome of his brilliant strategy.   Yes folks, the worst plan in the series by far.   Kill the man with the plan, the diplomatic connections, that secured the funds for continued support and to buy food (therefore doing Bowen Marsh's job for him in addition to his own), the supernatural alliances, the backing of the Free Folk and the man who would be king, the man who had the confidence of the previous Lord Commander and the esteemed Maester... kill him... and then hide in a hole.   What a genius, this guy.   Yep, worst plan by a mile.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:32 PM, Angel Eyes said:

True. I keep puzzling over in my mind why he decided to cross the Trident, if he had the high ground where his army could just force the Rebels to cross and turn them into pincushions?

Exactly. It's a proven doctrine that "the high ground" will aid in victory over the enemy occupying the low ground. General Kenobi can tell us much about that. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Exactly. It's a proven doctrine that "the high ground" will aid in victory over the enemy occupying the low ground. General Kenobi can tell us much about that. 

More seriously it's a long established fact in military history, having a higher ground really does give you a better defensive and observational position to help you better guess your enemy movements and repel them. 

Of course that advantage doesn't automatically grant the victory but you have to be smart and cunning and to command your army well-enough to overcome it. 

And Rhaegar had neither the skills nor the experience to be the commander at the Trident.

 

 

[Reekazoid]

28 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Exactly. It's a proven doctrine that "the high ground" will aid in victory over the enemy occupying the low ground. General Kenobi can tell us much about that. 

Quote

You can't win, Robert! I have the high ground!

 

-Rhaegar Targaryen, probably

Quote

I SAID, "YOU CAN'T WIN, ROBERT! I HAVE THE"... you know what? Fuck it, I'll just go down there.

 

-Also Rhaegar Targaryen.  Probably

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Reekazoid
formatting is hard

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Reekazoid 

That's not the quote (nitpicky, yes, but the sacred lands of r/prequelmemes have made clear the dialogue)

Tis: "It's over, Anakin! I have the high ground!"

[Reekazoid]

15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Reekazoid 

That's not the quote (nitpicky, yes, but the sacred lands of r/prequelmemes have made clear the dialogue)

Tis: "It's over, Anakin! I have the high ground!"

That’s what I thought at first b it I looked it up and the majority of the material pointed me down the wrong path.

 

 I’m am ashamed. Where can I put my face?

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Reekazoid said:

 I’m am ashamed. Where can I put my face?

You must fast and search up "I have the high ground" on the Internet. 

Such is my judgement. 

[Reekazoid]

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You must fast and search up "I have the high ground" on the Internet. 

Such is my judgement. 

No vigil in the sept/ Jedi temple? Thank you ser!

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

No vigil in the sept/ Jedi temple? Thank you ser!

You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master.

So no, luckily for you. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jaenara Belarys

[Angel Eyes]

Now, Doran's Targaryen plots gone wrong, part 2: Quentyn.

After the "crowning" of Viserys, Doran sets his sights on Daenerys, a Queen in truth with power at her beck and call in dragons, Unsullied, and sellswords. What can Quentyn offer? The support of Dorne. Now, how to make him inconspicuous to the Iron Throne, which Doran fears above all else? It's known that the sons of Westerosi noblemen would sometimes tour the Free Cities during their early years of maturity to partake in more knowledge of the world, as Tyrion asked Tywin to do as his uncles had done. This would be in addition to Oberyn's contacts in Braavos and Tyrosh. And Quentyn, with a Norvosi mother, had more opportunities to do so than most since Mellario had left for her home city; it would not look out of the ordinary to use visiting his mother as a pretense to have a home base or even just as a starting point From there, Quentyn could start off from there or Doran could send an invitation to Daenerys that a representative of Dorne wished to meet with her

Doran also made errors in the personnel for Quentyn's quest: Cletus and Archibald Yronwood, Gerris Drinkwater, William Wells, and Maester Kedry. All, while likely skilled knights and someone versed in the tongues of Essos, held allegiance to only one house: House Yronwood, showing that they had no other backing. Even Oberyn understood the importance of image politics, bringing lords, ladies, and heirs from all over Dorne to Joffrey's wedding, to the point that Tyrion felt his own retinue was outmatched. His varied entourage showed that Dorne was not so easily ignored in the politics of the realm.

Contrast with the Fellowship of the Ring: Four were Hobbits and close friends and relatives of the Ringbearer Frodo Baggins (albeit with three being landed gentlemen), but the other members of the Fellowship were skilled in war, languages, with political clout and backgrounds from all over Middle-Earth:

• Gandalf the Grey, a Servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, member of the White Council
• Aragorn son of Arathorn, Heir of Isildur and Anarion, Chieftain of the Dunedain
• Boromir son of Denethor, heir to the Stewardship of Gondor, Captain-General of Gondor, High Warden of the White Tower
• Legolas Greenleaf son of Thranduil, Prince of Mirkwood
• Gimli son of Gloin, cousin of Dain II Ironfoot

Even Oberyn understood the importance of image politics, bringing lords, ladies, and heirs from all over Dorne to Joffrey's wedding, to the point that Tyrion felt his own retinue was outmatched. His varied entourage showed that Dorne was not so easily ignored in the politics of the realm.

Doran then made an error in Quentyn's passage to Essos; instead of starting from Oldtown where the companions would not be easily identified, Doran had them start from Plankytown, the only port in Dorne, where they made conspicuous figures, particularly the lazy-eyed Cletus. His attempts at secrecy only increased speculation in the eyes of the lowborn of Dorne, which made their way up to the paranoid Arianne.

The result was disastrous: the company was halved before the reader meets Quentyn, most notably Cletus, the only other member of the party who could have shown any political clout. The plain Quentyn, in manner, face, and garb, had no means of charming Daenerys to fulfill his father's plans and so made a desperate attempt to tame a dragon... flaming out like a frog in the Bayou.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Angel Eyes