Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I think that deep down part's of why Doran is so absurdly cautious and slow into setting his plans into motion, and why they fall apart, may be because he's himself conflicted about his desire of revenge for his family against the Lannisters. He wants as hell to punish the Lannisters for the atrocities they did toward his family, but that he also doesn't want to inflict death and suffering on his people and family again, and knows that vengeance risks bringing tragedy on them again. 

I think that his tragedy is this, and the fact that despite his conscience he has been slowly falling to his darker instincts, and that he may finally snap and throw all semblance of preservation toward Dorne out of the window with Quentyn's, and possibly Arianne's, deaths.

[sifth]

The Doran alliance plot, feels like the biggest retcon in the entire series and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The fact that he would do nothing to protect them, during their childhood, despite wanting to help them regain their throne, just doesn't make sense.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

help them regain their throne, just doesn't make sense.

I still don't understand why he wants to help the family that held his sister and uncle hostage, and the family who slaughtered thousands of his countrymen, to regain their throne.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I still don't understand why he wants to help the family that held his sister and uncle hostage, and the family who slaughtered thousands of his countrymen, to regain their throne.

He just hates the Lannisters even more, while he did hate Aerys for what he did, there's no word to describe what Tywin and his men did to Elia and her children. And Tywin doesn't have the excuse of being insane, he commited these atrocities with full awareness of their depravity and of what consequences they would have in Doran and Oberyn's eyes.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

He just hates the Lannisters even more, while he did hate Aerys for what he did, there's no word to describe what Tywin and his men did to Elia and her children. And Tywin doesn't have the excuse of being insane, he commited these atrocities with full awareness of their depravity and of what consequences they would have in Doran and Oberyn's eyes.

But couldn't he have his revenge on the Lannisters without the Targaryens on the throne? That would make things easier but I don't think it's the only option.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I still don't understand why he wants to help the family that held his sister and uncle hostage, and the family who slaughtered thousands of his countrymen, to regain their throne.

Also Doran does seem to believe that children shouldn't be judged for their parents and grandparents' actions. He does point out to Nymeria that Tommen is just a boy and never wronged them, and he shows no sign of animosity toward Myrcella at all.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

But couldn't he have his revenge on the Lannisters without the Targaryens on the throne? That would make things easier but I don't think it's the only option.

The Targaryens are the only visible option to really punish the Lannisters since Robert and Jon Arryn showed no sign of intending to punish the Lannisters at all.  

Also you have to remember that the Martells and dornish had great influence in King's Landing court and had privileges that no other kingdom and great houses had after marrying the Targaryens. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Also Doran does seem to believe that children shouldn't be judged for their parents and grandparents' actions. He does point out to Nymeria that Tommen is just a boy and never wronged them, and he shows no sign of animosity toward Myrcella at all.

That is true but it doesn't mean he necessarily has to help the Targaryens, just that he shouldn't take action against them to get revenge on what Aerys did.

[Daena the Defiant]

51 minutes ago, sifth said:

The Doran alliance plot, feels like the biggest retcon in the entire series and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The fact that he would do nothing to protect them, during their childhood, despite wanting to help them regain their throne, just doesn't make sense.

Yes!

But, I would counterpropose (and this is drifting off-topic) *another* colossal retcon is the Maggy the Frog prophecy which has sent Cersei into a death spiral of paranoia and meglomania all because of her perception that Margaery is the "Younger, More Beautiful Queen" (the YMBQ), when waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the series, it seemed that Sansa should have been recognized as the potential YMBQ and *that* should have triggered Cersei, far, far earlier. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Daena the Defiant

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That is true but it doesn't mean he necessarily has to help the Targaryens, just that he shouldn't take action against them to get revenge on what Aerys did.

Well Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, while Tywin and his accomplices weren't. And it looked like no one in the other houses of Seven Kingdoms would do anything to punish the Lannisters, aside from the Starks who didn't look in any position to do anything against the Lannisters. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Yes!

But, I would counterpropose (and this is drifting off-topic) *another* colossal retcon is the Maggy the Frog prophecy which has sent Cersei into a death spiral of paranoia and meglomania all because of her perception that Margaery is the "Younger, More Beautiful Queen" (the YMBQ), when waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the series, it seemed that Sansa should have been recognized as the potential YMBQ and *that* should have triggered Cersei, far, far earlier. 

I don't mind it that much but it feels a bit...unnecessary? I thought Cersei's pride, vanity, greed, jealousy, cruelty and pettiness were serving fine as motivators for her character and decisions without the paranoia-inducing prophecy reveal.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

9 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Yes!

But, I would counterpropose (and this is drifting off-topic) *another* colossal retcon is the Maggy the Frog prophecy which has sent Cersei into a death spiral of paranoia and meglomania all because of her perception that Margaery is the "Younger, More Beautiful Queen" (the YMBQ), when waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the series, it seemed that Sansa should have been recognized as the potential YMBQ and *that* should have triggered Cersei, far, far earlier. 

Cersei didn't see her as the Younger, more beautiful queen most likely because she didn't see Sansa as more beautiful or more popular than her, or as any threat before Joffrey's murder. She most likely just saw Sansa as naive and harmless pawn.

But then Joffrey's murder happened, so beggining to accomplish the prophecy, and causing Cersei's insanity and paranoia to spiral upward with the death of her "beloved" son.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

The Doran alliance plot, feels like the biggest retcon in the entire series and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The fact that he would do nothing to protect them, during their childhood, despite wanting to help them regain their throne, just doesn't make sense.

The house with the red door, with its accompanying lemon tree, suggests Dornish involvement during Daenerys's early childhood, at least while Darry was alive.  Maybe a merchant or other wealthy Dornishman in Braavos.  Obviously, open support from Doran is out of the question.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The house with the red door, with its accompanying lemon tree, suggests Dornish involvement during Daenerys's early childhood, at least while Darry was alive.  Maybe a merchant or other wealthy Dornishman in Braavos.  Obviously, open support from Doran is out of the question.

Couldn't it just have been any wealthy citizen of Braavos who imported a lemon tree?

[Nevets]

15 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Yes!

But, I would counterpropose (and this is drifting off-topic) *another* colossal retcon is the Maggy the Frog prophecy which has sent Cersei into a death spiral of paranoia and meglomania all because of her perception that Margaery is the "Younger, More Beautiful Queen" (the YMBQ), when waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the series, it seemed that Sansa should have been recognized as the potential YMBQ and *that* should have triggered Cersei, far, far earlier. 

Well, Cersei did insist on Sansa remaining as Joffrey's betrothed long after it made sense to do so.  She may have seen Sansa as the answer to the prophecy, but one she could control, and so evade it taking effect.  

Joffrey's death, apparently by Sansa, could have triggered something, and when Margaery turned into a rival, especially with Tommen, Cersei transferred her fears to her.

[Nevets]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Couldn't it just have been any wealthy citizen of Braavos who imported a lemon tree?

Possible, but given the constantly repeated connection between Dorne and lemons, someone Dornish seems more likely.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Nevets

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Possible, but given the connection between Dorne and lemons, someone Dornish seems more likely.

Maybe, but I'm not sure if just the presence of the lemon tree is enough to go on. Anyone wealthy who liked lemons could've had one imported. Dorne seems to be the primary supplier of lemons to Westeros, but I would think lemons could be grown elsewhere as well.

What I don't understand is that if they were being helped by the Dornish then, why did the aid stop? The operation seems quite discreet, surely Doran could have sent them money even if he couldn't have his associates physically care for them anymore.

[Nevets]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe, but I'm not sure if just the presence of the lemon tree is enough to go on. Anyone wealthy who liked lemons could've had one imported. Dorne seems to be the primary supplier of lemons to Westeros, but I would think lemons could be grown elsewhere as well.

What I don't understand is that if they were being helped by the Dornish then, why did the aid stop? The operation seems quite discreet, surely Doran could have sent them money even if he couldn't have his associates physically care for them anymore.

Darry could have been the glue holding things together, and his death caused it to fall apart.  Viserys was probably less than stable even then.

[EggBlue]

I'm still fairly certain that Rhaegar's plan was the worst....whatever it was. just look at the result!

[alienarea]

34 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I'm still fairly certain that Rhaegar's plan was the worst....whatever it was. just look at the result!

But it was to be expected from an emo harp player.