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Worst plan ever made in the saga ?


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3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand that fine, I don't understand your argument that this means the Dornish civilians and peasants who had nothing to do with what a minority of the Dornish nobles were doing deserve to be burned alive. I don't understand your argument that because Dornish nobles torture a few people who invaded their lands, this makes them worse than the Targaryens who burned tens of thousands of people alive for the 'crime' of not submitting to their rule. If you want to talk about torture, the Targaryens are probably still worse than the Dornish, given what the Valyrian Freehold which they were a part of was up to, which included carrying out blood magic experiments on slaves, forcing slaves to mate with animals, genocide, and forcing slaves to work in conditions so bad they begged for death.

Targaryen rule in Westeros has nothing to do with the Freehold. 

The dornish smallfolk supported their lords, and it is not a bunch of knights, if you think the treatment of Theon by Ramsay is inhuman and the Boltons deserve to go extinct, the same deserved those houses that used the torture to break captive knight and the same deserved the smallfolk that supported them. The end of some civilizations was essential for the progress of mankind, Assyrians used to flay their enemies, the Aztects used to flay people and eat them to please their gods, it was good for the mankind the end of this obscenity. 

 

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1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Targaryen rule in Westeros has nothing to do with the Freehold. 

No it doesn't, but it has to do with your argument. You are arguing that the Dornish people as a whole deserve the treatment the Targaryens inflicted upon them because of what a minority of the upper class were doing. So by that same logic, the Targaryens deserve worse because of what the Freehold was doing.

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The dornish smallfolk supported their lords, and it is not a bunch of knights, if you think the treatment of Theon by Ramsay is inhuman and the Boltons deserve to go extinct, the same deserved those houses that used the torture to break captive knight and the same deserved the smallfolk that supported them. The end of some civilizations was essential for the progress of mankind, Assyrians used to flay their enemies, the Aztects used to flay people and eat them to please their gods, it was good for the mankind the end of this obscenity. 

With that logic everyone in Westeros and Essos 'deserves' to die. Also, how did the smallfolk being burned alive 'support' the Dornish nobles? They were not in the same place, had no idea it was happening. They might not have objected to the torture of invaders, but that is not the same as supporting it. Not that Aegon cared either way, him and his sisters slaughtered them in the tens of thousands for resisting his rule, not because they were happy to see some foreign nobles tortured.

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5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No it doesn't, but it has to do with your argument. You are arguing that the Dornish people as a whole deserve the treatment the Targaryens inflicted upon them because of what a minority of the upper class were doing. So by that same logic, the Targaryens deserve worse because of what the Freehold was doing.

With that logic everyone in Westeros and Essos 'deserves' to die. Also, how did the smallfolk being burned alive 'support' the Dornish nobles? They were not in the same place, had no idea it was happening. They might not have objected to the torture of invaders, but that is not the same as supporting it. Not that Aegon cared either way, him and his sisters slaughtered them in the tens of thousands for resisting his rule, not because they were happy to see some foreign nobles tortured.

You have not understood, for the sake of indipendence the dornish smallfolk supported the atrocities made by the dornish knights. 

The Freehold had the Doom, I think it is enough as punishment, the Dragon Wroth was less Dornishmen deserved. 

If you don't understand these things, return to school 

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17 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

You have not understood, for the sake of indipendence the dornish smallfolk supported the atrocities made by the dornish knights. 

You have not understood what I was asking. How were the peasants that Aegon and co. burned alive supporting the Dornish nobles torturing the foreign nobles? Were they encouraging them? Giving them tips? They weren't even in the same location! Just because they want independence from the Targaryens (not a crime by the way), doesn't mean they are supporting torture. Just because they may have felt the foreign nobles 'got what they deserved', which we don't have any evidence on either way, doesn't mean they were supporting torture. To support something is to encourage it. Do you have any evidence of the Dornish peasants that Aegon massacred encouraging torture of foreign nobles?

19 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

the Dragon Wroth was less Dornishmen deserved.

So genocide was less than the Dornish deserved? Even though all the people hurt by that weren't involved with the torture at all?

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14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You have not understood what I was asking. How were the peasants that Aegon and co. burned alive supporting the Dornish nobles torturing the foreign nobles? Were they encouraging them? Giving them tips? They weren't even in the same location! Just because they want independence from the Targaryens (not a crime by the way), doesn't mean they are supporting torture. Just because they may have felt the foreign nobles 'got what they deserved', which we don't have any evidence on either way, doesn't mean they were supporting torture. To support something is to encourage it. Do you have any evidence of the Dornish peasants that Aegon massacred encouraging torture of foreign nobles?

So genocide was less than the Dornish deserved? Even though all the people hurt by that weren't involved with the torture at all?

They were supporting lords that enjoy torture. Torture is worse than burning alive, because it is forcing people to live with madness and mental health issues due to torture as PTSD (have you read the Theon chapter?). 

The dragon wroth was the retaliation against the war crimes did by the dornishmen, Lord Wyl killed Lord Oakheart during a wedding, gelded Jon Cafferen in front of Alys Oakheart, then he and his knights raped Alys and her handmaids and they were sold to a Myrish slaver. The knights of Lord Wyl were people of the smallfolk too, people from the smallfolk are Damon dance with me and skinner too, the smallfolk that are faithful to some houses learn the atrocities from their lords. The dragon wroth is a retaliation to war crimes as slavery, rape, murder during a wedding, they violated every type of law during a war, so... yeah they deserved to burn alive

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11 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

They were supporting lords that enjoy torture.

Again, how were they supporting torture? 

11 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The dragon wroth is a retaliation to war crimes as slavery, rape, murder during a wedding, they violated every type of law during a war, so... yeah they deserved to burn alive

It's not though, because you have failed to provide any evidence that people targeted, Dornish villagers, were involved in these 'war crimes'. And attacking non-combatants is itself a war crime. What you are saying is that the Dornish people as a whole deserve to die for the sins of a few. If this is the case, the Targaryens as a whole also deserve to die for the sins of the few. Every sentient being in the story deserves to die for the sins of the few.

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2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

He left bowen in charge as hes the best of whats left really

For all his faults  he didnt lead them to a trap , he tracked a force trying to cross the bridge and beat them in a bloody battle leaving himself injured! Had he stayed the inital smaller battle at castle black would have been easier yes but then 300 or so wildlings would have easily attacked castle black from the south side and itd have been all.she wrote.

I don't agree at all. Bowen is easily one of the worst commanding officers in the Watch. So much so, that Mance believe his victory was assured, the moment he learned he was left in command. This is proven when Mance is able to lead him away from Castle Black, using a obvious trick and yea, it was a trap. Bowen is able to fight his way out of it, but it costs him nearly half of his men, because like I said before, the guy is an idiot and probably a horrible fighter as well. Heck, he's also a hypocrite and a racist; telling Jon to not get too close to Stannis, we're neutral, while secretly trying to support Tywin and the Lannisters.

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48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Again, how were they supporting torture? 

It's not though, because you have failed to provide any evidence that people targeted, Dornish villagers, were involved in these 'war crimes'. And attacking non-combatants is itself a war crime. What you are saying is that the Dornish people as a whole deserve to die for the sins of a few. If this is the case, the Targaryens as a whole also deserve to die for the sins of the few. Every sentient being in the story deserves to die for the sins of the few.

Are you able to read the entire reply? Knights are people from the smallfolk, the dragon wroth was not a crime but divine punishment, the smallfolk refused to surrender and supported their lords, this means they supported the atrocities and the war crimes made by them 

Edited by KingAerys_II
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1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Knights are people from the smallfolk

Bu they aren't. Most of the Knights are nobles. There some that have been 'promoted' from commoner but most are nobles. Even if they were smallfolk, that doesn't mean they suddenly represent all smallfolk in Dorne. Do you take Aerion Brightflame or Aerys II as a representitive of all Targaryens?

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

divine punishment

So you claim that the Targaryens are gods now?

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

the smallfolk refused to surrender

Why should they surrender? It is their country that the Targaryens invaded just because they wanted more power. Do you think all the Scots should have been burned alive too because they refused to submit to the English?

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

supported their lords

Again, you have not explained how they 'supported' their lords doing torture beyond just existing. What would they have to do to not support their lords? Rebel? Side with the Targaryens? Are you saying that the only thing that would have 'redeemed' them from being burned alive was to surrender to the Targaryens? Are they not allowed to want Dorne to be free but also not torture people? Are you claiming that supporting Dornish independence is the same as supporting torture?

Edited by Craving Peaches
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1 hour ago, sifth said:

I don't agree at all. Bowen is easily one of the worst commanding officers in the Watch. So much so, that Mance believe his victory was assured, the moment he learned he was left in command. This is proven when Mance is able to lead him away from Castle Black, using a obvious trick and yea, it was a trap. Bowen is able to fight his way out of it, but it costs him nearly half of his men, because like I said before, the guy is an idiot and probably a horrible fighter as well. Heck, he's also a hypocrite and a racist; telling Jon to not get too close to Stannis, we're neutral, while secretly trying to support Tywin and the Lannisters.

Hes not respected at all but regardless hes one of the few who can read and count and has experience thus he gets command....thats how fucked the night watch is at this point.

Hes a horrible person and hypocrite yes ...none of that alters he did well at the bridge! Meeting 300 wildlings in the open with 100 crows would have been  extremely stupid..blocking them at the bridge where their numbers mean nothing (a good bottleneck)  was basic good leadership even a dunce like marsh can figure out the advantages of a bridge vs enemy with vastly  superior numbers!!!

Mance is able to lead him away  from castle black central with this diversion attack but again mance has no idea how weak the watch is...if marsh doesnt intercept the 300 wildlings crossing the bridge they would sweep round and slaughter the nights watch from the undefended south!! 

Such is the state of the nightwatch  but its undeniable marsh made the right choice to block the weepers 300 savages at a place they could be slaughtered without letting them pass and flank the watch or chasing them.beyond the wall where theyd surround and  kill the 100 or so crows with much more ease!

That the brilliance of grmms writing that shitty horrible people can still do good things and vice versa...marsh was a useful hero in this case...not so much later on! People in his books can have shades of grey not just black and white,thus he actuly helps save the watch here and  then possibly dooms it later with his little stabby stabby party!

Edited by astarkchoice
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48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Bu they aren't. Most of the Knights are nobles. There some that have been 'promoted' from commoner but most are nobles. Even if they were smallfolk, that doesn't mean they suddenly represent all smallfolk in Dorne. Do you take Aerion Brightflame or Aerys II as a representitive of all Targaryens?

So you claim that the Targaryens are gods now?

Why should they surrender? It is their country that the Targaryens invaded just because they wanted more power. Do you think all the Scots should have been burned alive too because they refused to submit to the English?

Again, you have not explained how they 'supported' their lords doing torture beyond just existing. What would they have to do to not support their lords? Rebel? Side with the Targaryens? Are you saying that the only thing that would have 'redeemed' them from being burned alive was to surrender to the Targaryens? Are they not allowed to want Dorne to be free but also not torture people? Are you claiming that supporting Dornish independence is the same as supporting torture?

Do you really believe that the army is composed by nobles? The officials are noble, the rest is the  smallfolk, there are not thousands of noble people, and the torturers can be people from the smallfolk, the Mountain Men, the bastard s boys are common people, they are not noble, so dornish commoners did the atrocities, and yes, dragon wroth is divine punishment, because Dorne violated the most sacred laws in Westeros, especially the law that considers slavery as an abomination. Dorne did every type of war crimes, so the dragon wroth is justified, I am sure Targaryens did not torture the prisoners as Dorne did

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Just now, KingAerys_II said:

Do you really believe that the army is composed by nobles? The officials are noble, the rest is the  smallfolk

No, but the villainous characters amongst the Dornish leading them are nobles as noted by Fire and Blood, also even if they were Smallfolk, they are not the same smallfolk in those villages being burned, some smallfolk being torturers doesn't mean they all are, or agree, or support it.

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

and yes, dragon wroth is divine punishment, because Dorne violated the most sacred laws in Westeros, especially the law that considers slavery as an abomination

Where does it say that the Dornish have slaves? And the Targaryens practiced slavery in the past, and practiced incest, also an abomination, so should they also be subject to 'divine punishment'?

You seem to be under the impression that because a few members of one group do something, it makes the whole group just as guilty, regardless of their level of culpability in the act, which I honestly don't understand.

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41 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No, but the villainous characters amongst the Dornish leading them are nobles as noted by Fire and Blood, also even if they were Smallfolk, they are not the same smallfolk in those villages being burned, some smallfolk being torturers doesn't mean they all are, or agree, or support it.

Where does it say that the Dornish have slaves? And the Targaryens practiced slavery in the past, and practiced incest, also an abomination, so should they also be subject to 'divine punishment'?

You seem to be under the impression that because a few members of one group do something, it makes the whole group just as guilty, regardless of their level of culpability in the act, which I honestly don't understand.

They had the Doom, the widow lover enslaved Alys Oakheart and her handmaids, then he did unspeakable atrocities in Fawnton and Oak, the dornishmen deserved the Dragon Wroth, you are biased, it is not a few members, it is the entire population that enjoy to do such things, commoners make the most part of an army, and the smallfolk deserved the burning as a punishment for the tortures to captive knights, the destruction of villages in the Reach and Stormlands, the enslavement of women. The lords of the Stormlands and Reach didn't want peace but they ask the king to keep the devastation, Lord Oakheart wanted Aegon to send Deria in the meanest of the brothels, the Maester as advisor told him not to accept the peace, Aegon wanted peace and signed it, but Stormlands and Reach wanted revenge and the destruction of Dorne

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3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

you are biased, it is not a few members, it is the entire population that enjoy to do such things

Really now. You have absolutely no evidence to say that the whole population of Dorne enjoys torture. You have also failed to provide any explanation on how the Smallfolk burned by Aegon supported the torture, which it would be impossible for them to do anyway since they are in different locations. You have also failed to provide evidence that the Dornish engaged in Slavery. You have also just ignored the majority of my post.

Why do you think that the whole group deserves to be punished for the crimes of only a few of the members, regardless of whether they were involved or not? Where is the sense in that? According to your logic, Edward I of England would have been justified in burning every man, women and child in Scotland alive because some of the Scots raided and did other bad things to the English.

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3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Really now. You have absolutely no evidence to say that the whole population of Dorne enjoys torture. You have also failed to provide any explanation on how the Smallfolk burned by Aegon supported the torture, which it would be impossible for them to do anyway since they are in different locations. You have also failed to provide evidence that the Dornish engaged in Slavery. You have also just ignored the majority of my post.

Why do you think that the whole group deserves to be punished for the crimes of only a few of the members, regardless of whether they were involved or not? Where is the sense in that? According to your logic, Edward I of England would have been justified in burning every man, women and child in Scotland alive because some of the Scots raided and did other bad things to the English.

Are you sane? Lord Wyl sold Lady Oakheart and the handmaids to a Myrish slaver, how do you call it? I call it slavery, most of the army is composed of the smallfolk, torturers can be commoners, there are some houses in Dorne (Wyl, Blackmont, Uller) that did the same things Ramsay did to Theon, that's why Stormlands and Reach wanted vengeance

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If the smallfolk accepted the tortures the lord inflicted to the knights, it means they accepted it for the seek of indipendence and that is not an excuse to be accomplices to the atrocities. It is like to say that German population had not responsabilities on the Holocaust because the majority is not guilty of the atrocities made by the few, the German population is guilty because they did nothing to prevent the violence in the concentration camps

Edited by KingAerys_II
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2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Lord Wyl sold Lady Oakheart and the handmaids to a Myrish slaver, how do you call it?

Thank you for providing some evidence. But he is one man. So the claim that the Dornish as a whole engage in slavery is incorrect. Jorah sold some peasants into slavery, does that mean the whole North should be punished?

This is what I don't understand. You say that because some of the Dornish did bad things, all of the Dornish deserve to be punished for it, regardless of whether they were involved or not or how involved they were. Why?

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1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

If the smallfolk accepted the tortures the lord inflicted to the knights, it means they accepted it for the seek of indipendence and that is not an excuse to be accomplices to the atrocities

But you don't know they accepted it. Smallfolk have no say in what the lords do anyway. And knowing that it was going on alone doesn't make them an accomplice. And we don't even know if they knew about it or not. What about the children and babies in those villages?

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8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But you don't know they accepted it. Smallfolk have no say in what the lords do anyway. And knowing that it was going on alone doesn't make them an accomplice. And we don't even know if they knew about it or not. What about the children and babies in those villages?

You haven't read Fire and Blood, the smallfolk knows what their lords do in their dungeons, the torturer is a job, the Tickler is not a noble, skinner and Damon dance for me are the torturers that work in Dreadfort, people knew what happened in the dungeons of their lords and accepted it, do you really think Lord Fowler, Joffrey Dayne, Wyl of Wyl and Blackmont cared of women and children during their raids? The same did Aegon 

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1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

You haven't read Fire and Blood

Yes I have.

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

the smallfolk knows what their lords do in their dungeons

Most of them don't actually.

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

people knew what happened in the dungeons of their lords and accepted it

Do you have any quotes to back this up or are you just saying it?

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

do you really think Lord Fowler, Joffrey Dayne, Wyl of Wyl and Blackmont cared of women and children during their raids? The same did Aegon 

This isn't about Aegon though, it is about your claim that the Dornish 'deserved it' just because of what a few of them did. You are saying that infants and babies in those villages deserved it.

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