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What happened to mance and the wives?


Daenerysthegreat

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17 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

 

Dear Dragon queen, Fairy Godmother as I said if you want the answer to what happened to Mance and the spearwives, either wait for Winds or go check up more comprehensive Pink letter topics (archived ones fun) but you have to acknowledge its link and significance. Or put two and two together & conclude what Lady Topspin said. First time I'm agreeing with her *chuckle*

Those who/if they survived maybe, but deadsure they're..well...dead

Sorry @Curled Finger I wasn't addressing you...apologies for the unintended miscommunication. Just wanted to point out to Daenerysthegrate that people know that this topic (title) is inextricably linked with the mystery of the pink letter (which she denied) like you I and countless other people do

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13 hours ago, Rondo said:

You are joking. I hope you are.  Otherwise, outrageous.  Bowen doesn't have the dishonesty in his bone to fake a letter.  He's a boring accountant and a stickler for policy.  But a faker he is not.  

:lmao:

 

On 11/13/2021 at 8:28 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Pfft (scoff of derision), If he had the brains...

 

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21 hours ago, Rondo said:

They are prisoners according to the pink letter.  The girls lost some of their skin and Mance Rayder is made to wear the skin.  Ramsay keeps him alive because it supports the lie.  Mance doesn't know who Jeyne is.  He thinks she's the real Arya Stark.  Ramsay needs Mance to proclaim to the North what Jon did to steal his sister.  He can show that Stannis had allowed the Wildlings into the North.  Mance is not in danger of dying.  It's a political move to win the North over.  

he knows how arya looks, in storms the first chapter of jon, he tells the story of his travel to winterfell when Robert went there to name eddard his hand.

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On 11/13/2021 at 8:31 PM, Daenerysthegreat said:

In the last theon chapter(which I re read just now), mance and the spear wives plan to escape with arya partially succeeded. They were caught trying to sneak her out but it's still unknown if the northmen knew it was them.

The only immediate fate I can be sure of is of Holly, she fell into the snow covered moat. Now if theon and arya can survive the fall so can Holly.

Frenya I'm not sure about. She had the rope. 

What does everyone think about this? 

I just finished this chapter in my reread this morning so fresh in my mind, was just thinking to post something to do it’s been great to read people’s minds on it. 
I believe Holly just fell down where she was standing as it says she fell “reaching for the nearest merlon” and the snow fell on top of her and soon turned red. If she fell off the wall they wouldn’t be able to see it and she’d have been buried farther down.  Beside the point though. Holly is for sure dead since she is bloody, buried, and not trying to get up. 
frenya is heard fighting half a dozen guards and if she’s lucky she was killed, otherwise she’d be caught and put to the question. Squirrel is the most likely to have escaped but the room’s windows were barred and frozen shut and two guards out the door with more downstairs. Maybe they knew she was likely to be caught from the start and just hoped…

the other 3 went to see Mance who was playing for Roose directly when they left. Even if the 3 wives found him, he can’t excuse himself from the main hall while Roose is entertaining, they’d all be in the hall when the crap hit the fan and while they might not have been nabbed immediately, it would not take long at all for a lockdown and frenya to be identified as one of the women, nor Holly since she didn’t go over the wall (pretty sure), not Theon to be reported with F’arya. So Abel and the ladies would very quickly be caught. 
even if they learned of the crypts location from Theon, they don’t know any way out, so again, i had more hope before this reread for them, but doesn’t look good. Even Mance would be talking after enough time with the Boltons. I don’t care how honourable, tough, or badass, flaying is flaying.

if anyone did anything to stop it, fight back, help, etc we won’t know until winds, but not George’s style to make an unintelligent scenario for escape like the show (ex. Jaime falling into a lake and next scene a mile away and safe).

bowen penning the pink letter isn’t even good enough for a joke. He doesn’t know anything. He can’t give half of the details even if he wanted to. Only a couple people know all of the details given in the pink letter and Ramsay COULD be one, but circumstantial evidences doesn’t seem to match up with it being him, but I have a bad feeling ol Mance is caught and while he serves a purpose to keep alive, none of the spear wives do, nor do they know enough to be worth keeping alive for long. 

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Assuming Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter, I think the one thing in it that's completely true is the fate of the spearwives and Mance; the spearwives were either killed during the escape attempt, or else they were captured and flayed alive to reveal the truth of their identities. Mance was then put in a cage and forced to wear their skins as a cloak. All of that is completely in-character for Ramsay to do, and none of it is implausible.

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50 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Assuming Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter, I think the one thing in it that's completely true is the fate of the spearwives and Mance; the spearwives were either killed during the escape attempt, or else they were captured and flayed alive to reveal the truth of their identities. Mance was then put in a cage and forced to wear their skins as a cloak. All of that is completely in-character for Ramsay to do, and none of it is implausible.

Its certainly believable to an extent

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  • 2 weeks later...

The question is inextricably linked to the pink letter. I won't go deep into the authorship question but ...

The letter, supposedly from Ramsay, claims Mance and his six spearwives have been caught and that all the spearwives have been flayed.

After the rescue of Jeyne, Squirrel stayed behind in Jeyne's place. She planned on climbing out the tower window to escape as she had climbed the wall several times with her father so the tower was an easy climb for her. After that we don't know if she planned to rejoin the others or make her own way out of the castle. We don't know the outcome, escape, death or capture.

Holly and Frenya took Theon and Jeyne to the wall. Holly was killed, shot by crossbow and fell from the battlement. Frenya was holding the drawbridge with a spear. She would have known the danger of being taken alive but that doesn't mean she wasn't. The alarm was raised by then. We don't know the outcome, escape seems impossible so either death or capture.

Rowan, Myrtle and Willow left the others outside the tower to rejoin Mance in the hall. Preparations to ride out were underway even before the alarm was raised. It's no doubt that part of Mance's plan was to hide in the crypts like Bael the Bard, having secured the location from Theon. The question is, did they slip away unnoticed during the confusion and make it into the crypts unseen? Personally, I think they did. They parted from the others and would have been back to the hall with Mance by the time the others reached the outer wall, so before the alarm was raised. The alarm being raised and resulting confusion would be their cue to slip away from the hall before word got back that the washerwomen were involved in the escape. We don't know the outcome, escape to crypts or other hiding place, death or capture.

Even if you think they were all captured and flayed, even the dead ones like Holly, then you really have to ask when did Ramsay write the letter? His immediate concern would surely be retrieving Reek and his Bride. It's important to the Bolton claim that fArya is not only retrieved but that her true identity remains a secret. Ramsay likes hunting women through the woods. There's no way he's going to sit back and let Reek, whom he considers less than nothing, get the better of him. Theon knows Ramsay well. At the crofters village he tells Stannis that Ramsay will be coming too. He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek. Ramsay will stay in character and hunt his prey, not write strongly worded letters. The only way he writes the letter is if he returns to Winterfell after defeating Stannis but without having retrieved Reek who was in Stannis's camp or Jeyne who had only just departed the camp. Such a scenario is highly unlikely.

The most confusing element of the pink letter is the timeline. This is because the battle of ice was originally supposed to be part of Dance. When the manuscript reached the upper limit some chapters were bumped to Winds. Both battles of ice and fire were moved to the next book but Jon XIII remained at the end of Dance, given that Jon is a major character and his Dance arc needed to be completed within that novel. GRRM has confirmed that some of Winds will take place before the end of Dance. If things had gone according to plan then Theon I Winds and Asha I Winds (the battle of ice) would have been in Dance. Given that Theon I is a major source of clues for the authorship of the letter, including verbatim quotes, combined with Asha I revealing the result of the battle of ice, then all the clues to the mystery would have been contained in the one novel instead of spread over two. If you knew for certain that Stannis won the battle, the set-up for which has long been identified in the text, and if Jon's reading of the letter called you back, word for word, to a conversation between Theon and Stannis at the crofters village a few chapters before, then I think it would be clearer that Ramsay did not write the letter and that much of the content, including the fate of the spearwives, is false.

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