Things you would have changed in the books?

[Daenerysthegreat]

My re read is finishing fast so is my time on this forum so I thought I'll post one of the last threads I'll make. 

I would have changed this in the series. 

1) Remove the arya chapters after her red wedding ones. The author could have killed arya but I wouldn't have liked it. 

2) Remove sansa chapters after sansa iv, asos(chapter 59, before the purple wedding). 

3) Throw bran's three adwd chapters in asos. 

4) Remove sam as pov after asos. Replace his five chapters with sarella's(alleras). 

5) Remove areo hotah as pov. Divide his first affc chapter with three chapters. Pov: Obara, nymeria tyene. Give his adwd chapter to obara. 

6) Remove jon snow as pov. This can be easily done since there is no major character development. Replace him with mel. This will give her about 5 chapters. Not that big. 

7) Transfer the cersei, Jaime adwd chapters in affc. 

8) Severely edit the early quentyn chapters. Make it so that people do not know that he is quentyn martell. Rename him frog. This will not spoil the mystery. 

9) Remove the sample chapters. They are giving too much of the storyline away. 

10) Make 9 books instead of seven. 

11) Release book 4,5,6 first. I've heard that another franchise of 9 did this and the 4,5,6 ones were highly received. Release agot, acok and asos as prequels. 

 

So what does everyone think about my changes to the plot. 

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

My re read is finishing fast so is my time on this forum so I thought I'll post one of the last threads I'll make. 

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) Remove the arya chapters after her red wedding ones. The author could have killed arya but I wouldn't have liked it

1- I largely agree. though since I wouldn't change the series' many subplots drastically while I still hope they lead somewhere , I wouldn't have removed Arya entirely .. but she has too many chapters in both books 2 & 3 , something I would have decreased

 

4- NO . but I agree that he and Alleras could both be POVs

 

5- this is what I think Martin should have done with Dorne:

he should have started bringing Dorne to the story when Arys Oakheart and Myrcella moved to Dorne.

Arys would have given us a good view on Dorne through a foreigner's eyes and we could get to know dornish characters and their potential conflicts as early as Clash or SoS. we could see Oberyn and Arianne early on and connect with them in a way that Dorne's feast chapters don't inspire.   

Aereo could be a good POV as well, given there was more to him than a camera and he had more than 1-2 chapters. his character could be better developed and as the only former slave POV , his chapters could be extremely interesting to read . it seems he has stayed with Doran instead of going back to Norvos on his own choice so I think we could see who Doran really is through his eyes and why he seems so loyal to Doran. moreover , we could peak through Doran and Oberyn's relationship.

6 - ..you really hate JS , don't you? ... if Jon is really Ned's bastard with Wylla and he really is dead and would definitely not come back ( as I believe you think so) , I suppose Martin could remove his POVs after he gave us a look on wildling life and traditions.

 

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

8) Severely edit the early quentyn chapters. Make it so that people do not know that he is quentyn martell. Rename him frog. This will not spoil the mystery. 

Great Idea.

 

finally , I don't completely disagree with your last points... but this is my own view:

• George should have blended CoK and SoS , and Feast and Dance .. so the books would be: 1) aGoT 2) War of the Five Kings 3) Feast and Dance 4) Winds 5)Dream

obviously, the books would have become even bigger but the stories could be better received , that is if  Martin doesn't want the Starks and Lannisters to be the only main characters any more and wants people to care about/root for the later additions like the Dornish , Griff and Co , Greyjoys and so on.

 

• if Young Griff is going to be anything important to the story , I would have given him a prologue in the second book in which the character and his relationship dynamics with Griff , Lemore , Haldon and Duck is explored but his true identity ( or his identity number 1!) isn't revealed.

 

• and I would have given some of Dany chapters to Barristan 

 

 

 

 

[Daenerysthegreat]

50 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

6 - ..you really hate JS , don't you? ... if Jon is really Ned's bastard with Wylla and he really is dead and would definitely not come back ( as I believe you think so) , I suppose Martin could remove his POVs after he gave us a look on wildling life and traditions.

 

 

Well personal dislike may have been a tiny factor but the main reason is that he gives zero world building zero character development and zero setup for anything.
 

 

52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

George should have blended CoK and SoS , and Feast and Dance .. so the books would be: 1) aGoT 2) War of the Five Kings 3) Feast and Dance 4) Winds 5)Dream

Well I like this but the issue is that the books will be too big.I would have made agot a bit longer since it appears tiny compared to 2 and 3.Give arya sansa bran 10 extra chapters each. Also margaery as pov give her 6-7 chapters.

 

[Mithras]

5 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

So what does everyone think about my changes to the plot. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

6 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Why are you laughing 

[Nathan Stark]

I like the books the way they were written, warts and all. Though not perfect, ASOIAF provides so much opportunity for discussion, analysis, fan theories and predictions that changing any given aspect likely tarnishes the story rather than improves it. And there are so many wonderfully fleshed out characters that benefitted from the time and attention George put into writing them. Why change any of that? The story as given is already great, even though it will likely remain unfinished. There is no need to change what is already amazing.

[SeanF]

Cut back on Tyrion’s Eastern travelogue and Dany’s chapters in Meereen, so as to make the Battle of Meereen the climax of ADWD.

[Jaenara Belarys]

54 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Why are you laughing 

I believe it's fairly obvious he thinks your changes are laughable. 

 

I think I'd cut back on the Quentyn, Brienne, and even Dany chapters to slim it down and make it so that the Battle of Meereen is at or near the end. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

25 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I believe it's fairly obvious he thinks your changes are laughable. 

 

Well seeing that he posts things like this to my posts daily it's no surprise. 

26 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

 

I think I'd cut back on the Quentyn, Brienne, and even Dany chapters to slim it down and make it so that the Battle of Meereen is at or near the end. 

Yes I forgot to add that. After the trimming of jon's chapters we have 8 chapters remaining plenty of time for battle of meereen. I think the battle of winterfell should be in twow because the last winterfell related chapter(the sacrifice) ends on a masterpiece. 

 

[Prince of the North]

6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I like the books the way they were written, warts and all. Though not perfect, ASOIAF provides so much opportunity for discussion, analysis, fan theories and predictions that changing any given aspect likely tarnishes the story rather than improves it. And there are so many wonderfully fleshed out characters that benefitted from the time and attention George put into writing them. Why change any of that? The story as given is already great, even though it will likely remain unfinished. There is no need to change what is already amazing.

Hear hear!  I completely agree...except for the "will likely remain unfinished" part.  I think they will be finished.  If I'm wrong, I'll be disappointed but I'll certainly survive.

[Nevets]

12 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) Remove the arya chapters after her red wedding ones. The author could have killed arya but I wouldn't have liked it. 

2) Remove sansa chapters after sansa iv, asos(chapter 59, before the purple wedding). 

NO.  These are important characters.  They are among the (several) people the series is about.  As such, their stories are important in their own right.  If anything, we needed more of both characters in Feast/Dance.  Certainly not being removed.

 

12 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

4) Remove sam as pov after asos. Replace his five chapters with sarella's(alleras). 

Again, no.  While I might reduce Sam's story (3 chapters would probably do it), I think it is still necessary.   As for Sarella, I think GRRM is hoping to keep her true nature a secret for as long as possible.  I suspect most casual (and even not so casual) readers haven't figured it out yet.  A POV would eliminate that.

 

12 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

6) Remove jon snow as pov. This can be easily done since there is no major character development. Replace him with mel. This will give her about 5 chapters. Not that big.

 

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well personal dislike may have been a tiny factor but the main reason is that he gives zero world building zero character development and zero setup for anything.

You cannot be serious!  This is a dreadful idea.  What is happening in the Far North and the Wall is among the most important things in the series (or so GRRM has said).  And Jon has advanced quite a bit from the callow, arrogant youth he was at the beginning.  Maybe not quite as much as, say, Daenerys or Sansa, who are practically different people, but he has developed, just like everybody else.  Also, Mel has little knowledge of what is going on there, and has actually witnessed virtually nothing.

And much of your criticism could be used to remove Daenerys.  After all, her story, especially in the first 3 books, has zero to do with anything else in the series.  Remove them, and plotwise you lose nothing.  And they can work independently on their own (actually, her AGOT chapters were published separately as a novella).  In truth, I think she is an important character, so I wouldn't remove her.  But only because I think she will become important, not because she actually has been.

 

I tend to agree with @Nathan Stark that the story works quite well as it is.  There are a few changes I would make.  The biggest is that I would add one year to everyone's age (essentially add one year to the backstory).  This would make many of the younger characters' stories a bit more palatable,, without changing things radically.  Increase ages too much, and you make youthful mistakes look even worse, plus plus remove the already stated in-story issues with the ages of Daenerys and Sansa.  In the same vein, I would make Feast/Dance take place over a longer period of time; say around two years, instead of the eight months or so it presently is.  Have multi-month gaps in characters' stories.

There are other tweaks I might make as well.  Arya probably has too many chapters in Clash and Storm, and Feast and Dance could use some tightening (too much Brienne, Cersei, and Tyrion, for example, and Dany feels repetitive).  I don't particularly care for the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines, but I realize that others do, and they are likely to increase in importance, so I would leave them in.  Overall, I wouldn't change that much.

 

 

[The Young Maester]

6 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well personal dislike may have been a tiny factor but the main reason is that he gives zero world building zero character development and zero setup for anything.

Povs aren’t meant to be primarily for character development. Some of them are literally just for us to have eyes on whats happening on the the other side of the world. And Jon did have ton of character development. Need to re-read acok and asos, and you’ll see how much he has changed when compared to agot.

And if he does comeback for winds I suspect he wont be the same person. We might even see Jon become more ruthless.

[Rondo]

1. Kill Sansa at the end of Game of Thrones.  
2. Send Arya with Rickon and Osha.  Keep her out of the novels which followed.
3. Reduce the amount of pages dedicated to the North.  Cut it down to less than half of what it is.
4. Increase the pages for the following: Victarion, Daenerys, Barristan, and Tyrion.  
5. Give Greyworm his own point of view chapters. The Shavepate should have his own chapters too.  
6. Give Gillie her own point of view chapters.  We also need a Dothraki view point character.  I would choose one of Dany's bloodriders.  
7. Dedicate 50% of the pages of A Feast for Crows to Dothraki, Ghiscari, and Greyworm point of view chapters.

[The Young Maester]

5 minutes ago, Rondo said:

1. Kill Sansa at the end of Game of Thrones.  
2. Send Arya with Rickon and Osha.  Keep her out of the novels which followed.
3. Reduce the amount of pages dedicated to the North.  Cut it down to less than half of what it is.
4. Increase the pages for the following: Victarion, Daenerys, Barristan, and Tyrion.  
5. Give Greyworm his own point of view chapters. The Shavepate should have his own chapters too.  
6. Give Gillie her own point of view chapters.  We also need a Dothraki view point character.  I would choose one of Dany's bloodriders.  
7. Dedicate 50% of the pages of A Feast for Crows to Dothraki, Ghiscari, and Greyworm point of view chapters.

So basically a book based on Essos

[Rondo]

Just now, The Young Maester said:

So basically a book based on Essos

Centered on Essos.  Yes.

[Raven Princling]

14 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) Remove the arya chapters after her red wedding ones. The author could have killed arya but I wouldn't have liked it. 

Partially agree. Upon re-reading, I love Arya's chapters, but I do agree that they could have been trimmed and merged in some places. It is hard to judge her arc, because I think all the buildup and character development has to lead somewhere.

Disagree with 3-4 points.

14 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

5) Remove areo hotah as pov. Divide his first affc chapter with three chapters. Pov: Obara, nymeria tyene. Give his adwd chapter to obara. 

Agree. While I love Dorne's plot, it does not have the same impact as the Ironborn whom we saw through Theon in Clash. It begins too late with no buildup. Areo is an interesting character, because he is not native to Westeros, but I think his POV could have been given to someone else.

9 hours ago, EggBlue said:

5- this is what I think Martin should have done with Dorne:

he should have started bringing Dorne to the story when Arys Oakheart and Myrcella moved to Dorne.

Arys would have given us a good view on Dorne through a foreigner's eyes and we could get to know dornish characters and their potential conflicts as early as Clash or SoS. we could see Oberyn and Arianne early on and connect with them in a way that Dorne's feast chapters don't inspire.   

Aereo could be a good POV as well, given there was more to him than a camera and he had more than 1-2 chapters. his character could be better developed and as the only former slave POV , his chapters could be extremely interesting to read . it seems he has stayed with Doran instead of going back to Norvos on his own choice so I think we could see who Doran really is through his eyes and why he seems so loyal to Doran. moreover , we could peak through Doran and Oberyn's relationship.

Completely agree with this. I think Arys Oakheart's chapter in Feast holds importance, but he could have become POV sooner. 

Disagree with 6.

Regarding 7, I think George should have merged Feast and Dance together and split it in volumes. I understand some character arcs are longer than others, but it would have been the best choice imo. 

14 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

8) Severely edit the early quentyn chapters. Make it so that people do not know that he is quentyn martell. Rename him frog. This will not spoil the mystery. 

I think this is a wonderful idea! 

I disagree with point 9, because reading sample chapters, analyzing them and theorizing is what keeps a lot of people's interest in the series fresh. In fact, I think George should have released either updated existing sample chapters (he mentioned in his blog that he has been editing them as he tweaks things) or release a new one. I still wish he would release the famous deleted Tyrion chapter as well.

Do not agree with your last points.

As for myself, outside of what I mentioned above, there are not many things I would change about the plot. I think it works great as it is. 

One thing I might add (but this is a possiblity, not sure how this would work tho) is a Tyrell POV. Not Margeary, but perhaps Loras, since he could  show Renly's camp before and after Cat's visit as well as his assault on Dragonstone. 

[Raven Princling]

21 minutes ago, Rondo said:

1. Kill Sansa at the end of Game of Thrones.  
2. Send Arya with Rickon and Osha.  Keep her out of the novels which followed.
3. Reduce the amount of pages dedicated to the North.  Cut it down to less than half of what it is.
4. Increase the pages for the following: Victarion, Daenerys, Barristan, and Tyrion.  
5. Give Greyworm his own point of view chapters. The Shavepate should have his own chapters too.  
6. Give Gillie her own point of view chapters.  We also need a Dothraki view point character.  I would choose one of Dany's bloodriders.  
7. Dedicate 50% of the pages of A Feast for Crows to Dothraki, Ghiscari, and Greyworm point of view chapters.

Disagree.

Sansa and Arya are very important characters to the story, whether liked or not.  The North plays an important part of the plot and Stark conflict with Lannisters is what kickstarts the entire series. The series themselves are, in their core, about Westeros. Even Daenerys, who is in Essos, has a main goal to go over the sea and conquer Westeros. It's what the books are about.

I think Daenerys already has too many chapters in Dance(and Clash in some places) where the plot is moving slowly. She does not need anymore pages imo. Tyrion and Barristan have the right amount- no need to tweak them either. Might agree with adding pages to Victarion tho.

Not sure  if Greyworm and Shavepate would work as POV's when we already have Barristan. They could seem a bit pointless to have 3 (4 when Dany is still there) POV's for Mereen. Characters have to do something and have their own arcs. 

Disagree about Gilly and partly agree about Dothraki. I would not choose Dany's bloodrider tho (again, pointless to have so many POV's around Dany when she herself has a POV and then barristan is added in Mereen). A Khal's POV who seperates from Drogo's Khalasar after GoT would flesh out the Dothraki. I am not sure how that would fit in the story tho. What would the Khal do, what would be the purpose of his chapters, where would he end up? What would he give to the overall story?

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 hours ago, Raven Princling said:

Partially agree. Upon re-reading, I love Arya's chapters, but I do agree that they could have been trimmed and merged in some places. It is hard to judge her arc, because I think all the buildup and character development has to lead somewhere.

She has only 7 chapters after the red wedding. The reason I removed her chapters( and sansa's) is so that Brienne quest has an element of mystery in it. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

NO.  These are important characters.  They are among the (several) people the series is about.  As such, their stories are important in their own right.  If anything, we needed more of both characters in Feast/Dance.  Certainly not being removed.

I didn't remove them as pov. I just said they won't have chapters again until twow. 

[Roswell]

18 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

My re read is finishing fast so is my time on this forum so I thought I'll post one of the last threads I'll make. 

I would have changed this in the series. 

1) Remove the arya chapters after her red wedding ones. The author could have killed arya but I wouldn't have liked it. 

2) Remove sansa chapters after sansa iv, asos(chapter 59, before the purple wedding). 

3) Throw bran's three adwd chapters in asos. 

4) Remove sam as pov after asos. Replace his five chapters with sarella's(alleras). 

5) Remove areo hotah as pov. Divide his first affc chapter with three chapters. Pov: Obara, nymeria tyene. Give his adwd chapter to obara. 

6) Remove jon snow as pov. This can be easily done since there is no major character development. Replace him with mel. This will give her about 5 chapters. Not that big. 

7) Transfer the cersei, Jaime adwd chapters in affc. 

8) Severely edit the early quentyn chapters. Make it so that people do not know that he is quentyn martell. Rename him frog. This will not spoil the mystery. 

9) Remove the sample chapters. They are giving too much of the storyline away. 

10) Make 9 books instead of seven. 

11) Release book 4,5,6 first. I've heard that another franchise of 9 did this and the 4,5,6 ones were highly received. Release agot, acok and asos as prequels. 

 

So what does everyone think about my changes to the plot. 

Jon is a dull boy.  Reduce the number and frequency of his chapters but he needs to remain a viewpoint character.  We need to know what led the lord commander of the nightswatch to abandon his duties. 

We need Sam at the citadel but equally needed is an adversary for him.  Leo for instance. 

I would expand on Benerro's church.  Give this church as much backstory and information as we have on the seven.  Speaking of backstory, the origins of the Dothraki people is very important.  I would have included them in Feast.  One of the crones giving a long monologue to Jorah about her people would be splendid. 

I would work the emperor Bu Gai into Dany's story.  I would bring more ancient history, mythology, and archaelogy to her point of views and grant her more chapters.