Things you would have changed in the books?

[the trees have eyes]

18 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Make the volumes longer. I like the Wheel Of Time show on Amazon. The writers are taking their time. I will suggest the same for this one.

Robert Jordan intended to write a 10 volume epic series.  Due to a bit of mid-series drift it turned out to be 14 volumes and, sadly, due to his illness and passing, the last three volumes were written by Brandon Sanderson based on RJ's detailed outline.

The ASOIAF series was intended to be five, now seven novels and they are all pretty chunky in my bookcase (both ASOS and ADWD are published in two volumes).  I wouldn't argue for more length!

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

At heart the story flows most easily when it focuses on the Starks and Lannisters, the Wall and the IT and the two royal families, Targaryen and Barratheon.  The Ironborn and Dornish remain the easiest elements to prune.

I'm not comfortable with a stripping or dumbing down of the books. More pruning? Sure; where needed. More organization? Absolutely.

The show concentrated exactly on what you just said (Starks, Lannisters, Targaryens, the Wall and the Iron Throne) and the end result was abysmal. And honestly, in a world as large and as colorful as Planetos, how can you have an extraordinarily huge ending with a story so limited in scope. It was always going to be lackluster.

If we were to get a story like that, then Westeros (and Planetos) need to be much smaller. Just make Dorne a separate country on a completely different island or subcontinent and push the Iron Islands further out into the Sunset Sea. Or while you're at it, just delete them from the story completely.

Yet, I'm not so sure if the Ironborn and Dornish remain the easiest elements to prune as they present (and presented) a huge threat to both the Starks (for the Ironborn) and the Lannisters (for the Dornish) as individual houses as well as the wider stability of the realm. Again, we saw the showrunners do just that in the TV show and the story collapsed on itself.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Ironborn have a major part to play in TWot5K and the fall of the North.

True.

But that's in A Clash of Kings only. I'm not a particular fan of how they were handled or regarded in A Storm of Swords.

They devastated the North but hardly any of the POVs who are the most tied to the North think of them. And when they do, it's an offhanded remark before they get back to the main plot of that chapter or that POV storyline.

I don't like it when you have a major player or organization make these huge impacts onscreen only for them to fade into the background and do everything offscreen...until they suddenly appear to make an substantially smaller impact onscreen for about five minutes before disappearing into the background or the either.

But you're going to have to position POV characters completely differently if you still want to have the Ironborn make a major impact in the story beyond A Clash of Kings. 

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:22 AM, BlackLightning said:

The show concentrated exactly on what you just said (Starks, Lannisters, Targaryens, the Wall and the Iron Throne) and the end result was abysmal. And honestly, in a world as large and as colorful as Planetos, how can you have an extraordinarily huge ending with a story so limited in scope. It was always going to be lackluster.

 

That's because we had Dumber and Dogshit at the wheel, not because the story was so limited (it did contribute, though but D&D are at fault for the shitty writing). I'm sure if we had some more competent writers, we'd have a far larger chance of at least getting an ending that makes sense and ties up all the plot lines. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 12/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, BlackLightning said:

I'm not comfortable with a stripping or dumbing down of the books. More pruning? Sure; where needed. More organization? Absolutely.

The first three books are not dumbed down because they lacked multiple Dornish or Ironborn characters.  Very far from it: they are hugely satisfying and the story flows easily and rapidly forwards.

On 12/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, BlackLightning said:

The show concentrated exactly on what you just said (Starks, Lannisters, Targaryens, the Wall and the Iron Throne) and the end result was abysmal. 

I really wouldn't make too much of a comparison between the show and the novels.  And the extent to which the ending is abysmal is probably down to both how that story was told on screen and the likelihood that the ending GRRM has in mind is actually disappointing to the audience (like the Red Wedding was) rather than there not being enough screen time or another season or two to fit in lots of Dornish or Ironborn character arcs.

On 12/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, BlackLightning said:

And honestly, in a world as large and as colorful as Planetos, how can you have an extraordinarily huge ending with a story so limited in scope. It was always going to be lackluster.

No more so than the first three novels.  I don't really see those as  limited in scope or lackluster.  It's a story of fire and ice, of dragons and white walkers, of Starks and Lannisters, of Targaryens and Barratheons, of KL and the Wall.  Dorne and The Iron Islands are no more important than The Vale of Arryn or The Reach.  We don't need a welter of POVs.

You can enjoy all the characters and story arcs and enjoy the story as written.  I do.  That's not the issue.  The issue, or mine at least, is how to avoid the story growing and grinding to a halt.

On 12/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, BlackLightning said:

If we were to get a story like that, then Westeros (and Planetos) need to be much smaller. Just make Dorne a separate country on a completely different island or subcontinent and push the Iron Islands further out into the Sunset Sea. Or while you're at it, just delete them from the story completely.

Why though?  I don't agree with any of that.  Any more than we should delete The Reach or The Vale from the story because we don't have half a dozen pov characters to represent them.

On 12/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, BlackLightning said:

Yet, I'm not so sure if the Ironborn and Dornish remain the easiest elements to prune as they present (and presented) a huge threat to both the Starks (for the Ironborn) and the Lannisters (for the Dornish) as individual houses as well as the wider stability of the realm.

The first three books are left untouched.  I can't see what in AFFC and ADWD is easier to prune than some/most of the new povs that focus on the Martells and Greyjoys.  I didn't say that this was easy, it's not, it would have involved major rethinking and alterations to what was written, but it's the easiest decision to make.  AGOT, ACOK & ASOS introduce 12 povs, 2 of whom die (Ned, Cat) leaving 10 povs.  AFFC & ADWD introduce 12 new povs, 2 of whom die (Arys Oakheart, Quentyn), leaving us 20 to be crammed into TWOW.  That's a problem and he's spent a decade trying to resolve it satisfactorily.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:50 AM, the trees have eyes said:

The first three books are not dumbed down because they lacked multiple Dornish or Ironborn characters.  Very far from it: they are hugely satisfying and the story flows easily and rapidly forwards.

I really wouldn't make too much of a comparison between the show and the novels.  And the extent to which the ending is abysmal is probably down to both how that story was told on screen and the likelihood that the ending GRRM has in mind is actually disappointing to the audience (like the Red Wedding was) rather than there not being enough screen time or another season or two to fit in lots of Dornish or Ironborn character arcs.

No more so than the first three novels.  I don't really see those as  limited in scope or lackluster.  It's a story of fire and ice, of dragons and white walkers, of Starks and Lannisters, of Targaryens and Barratheons, of KL and the Wall.  Dorne and The Iron Islands are no more important than The Vale of Arryn or The Reach.  We don't need a welter of POVs.

You can enjoy all the characters and story arcs and enjoy the story as written.  I do.  That's not the issue.  The issue, or mine at least, is how to avoid the story growing and grinding to a halt.

Why though?  I don't agree with any of that.  Any more than we should delete The Reach or The Vale from the story because we don't have half a dozen pov characters to represent them.

The first three books are left untouched.  I can't see what in AFFC and ADWD is easier to prune than some/most of the new povs that focus on the Martells and Greyjoys.  I didn't say that this was easy, it's not, it would have involved major rethinking and alterations to what was written, but it's the easiest decision to make.  AGOT, ACOK & ASOS introduce 12 povs, 2 of whom die (Ned, Cat) leaving 10 povs.  AFFC & ADWD introduce 12 new povs, 2 of whom die (Arys Oakheart, Quentyn), leaving us 20 to be crammed into TWOW.  That's a problem and he's spent a decade trying to resolve it satisfactorily.

I'm not understanding how you can cover such a large story that touches every part of a continent without having any eyes or ears there.

Are you saying that we should've stuck with one POV for Dorne, one for the Free Cities and one for the Iron Islands?

The whole goal of writing is to show not tell. You'd be doing a lot of telling instead of showing.

Take Ser Barristan for example. He was a key part in unravelling the Meereenese Knot because a lot of stuff had to have happen in Daenerys' court after she left and Tyrion -- still working on securing his freedom from slavery -- was not close to be positioned there. If we had it your way, everything would've been told to us in retrospect and/or with an info-dump.

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/13/2022 at 4:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

I'm not understanding how you can cover such a large story that touches every part of a continent without having any eyes or ears there.

The same way The Reach and The Vale are part of the story without a welter of POV characters.

On 1/13/2022 at 4:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

Are you saying that we should've stuck with one POV for Dorne, one for the Free Cities and one for the Iron Islands?

If any.  He chose to take the story this way and as he himself has said he's juggling too many balls.

On 1/13/2022 at 4:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

The whole goal of writing is to show not tell. You'd be doing a lot of telling instead of showing.

The goal of writing is to tell a story.  If you write yourself into a cul-de-sac or lose interest in what you've written and have left to tell then something has gone wrong.  Showing rather than telling refers to the technique or skill with which the story is told but for that we need that story to unfold and it's not.

On 1/13/2022 at 4:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

If we had it your way, everything would've been told to us in retrospect and/or with an info-dump.

God, no, that's not "my way" at all.  The story told in AGOT through ASOS is excellent but then it spreads and the writing slows and grinds to a halt.  Less focus on peripheral areas means no need for characters to "show" rather than the author "tell / infodump" those events but we're going in circles on this.

[BlackLightning]

8 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The same way The Reach and The Vale are part of the story without a welter of POV characters.

If any.  He chose to take the story this way and as he himself has said he's juggling too many balls.

The goal of writing is to tell a story.  If you write yourself into a cul-de-sac or lose interest in what you've written and have left to tell then something has gone wrong.  Showing rather than telling refers to the technique or skill with which the story is told but for that we need that story to unfold and it's not.

God, no, that's not "my way" at all.  The story told in AGOT through ASOS is excellent but then it spreads and the writing slows and grinds to a halt.  Less focus on peripheral areas means no need for characters to "show" rather than the author "tell / infodump" those events but we're going in circles on this.

Okay I understand more now.

But I still don't think Dorne and the Iron Islands are peripheral stories at all.

Not as far as Daenerys Targaryen is concerned.

I think that's where the disconnect is coming from. I think you think the story is about the Starks versus the Lannisters and how that conflict is a horribly wasteful distraction from the coming of the Others (which are also tied to the Starks)

I think you minimize the Targaryen input into the story. Houses Stark and Lannister were originally fighting for control over the realm and the ability to be free from terror and tyranny...which is exactly what the Targaryens have always been gunning for. The Greyjoy brothers -- both powerful -- are coming to blows over the last Targaryen, Queen Daenerys. However, this queen not only has unfinished business in the lands of her exile but she unexpectedly finds (or accidentally creates, depending on your point of view and which way the story goes) enemies in people who should be her allies: Aegon and the Martells.

The Greyjoy and the Martell storylines are direct tie-ins with the Targaryen storyline which is just as important (if not more important) than the Lannister vs. Stark conflict. And - as of right now - the Greyjoy storyline ties into the Stark storyline more than it ties into the Targaryen one as well.

The problem with the writing seems to be that GRRM had to omit the five-year-gap and didn't create a solidly comprehensive outline that he stuck to.

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

But D&D have apparently confirmed that they both end up doing those acts.

No. D&D has only confirmed Shireen being sacrificed to R'hllor. They haven't expressly said how or why she has been sacrificed. I don't believe Stannis will sacrifice Shireen because of some bad weather.

And then there's Daenerys. None of that stuff has been confirmed at all.

[Apoplexy]

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The Greyjoy and the Martell storylines are direct tie-ins with the Targaryen storyline which is just as important (if not more important) than the Lannister vs. Stark conflict. And - as of right now - the Greyjoy storyline ties into the Stark storyline more than it ties into the Targaryen one as well.

The Greyjoy and Martell storylines could have moved along much quicker IMO. I don't think we needed as may POVs as we got in Feast and Dance. Plus, I found the characters rather lackluster. Had the storylines and characters been a little more interesting, I probably wouldn't mind as much.

[The Young Maester]

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They haven't expressly said how or why she has been sacrificed. I don't believe Stannis will sacrifice Shireen because of some bad weather.

Fuck me I forgot this is why she was killed in the tv show. Absolute garbage tbh. Like imagine sacrificing your own daughter and heir just because you wanted some good weather.

If it were because it would bring him a complete victory against the Boltons, than maybe it’s more believable.

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But I still don't think Dorne and the Iron Islands are peripheral stories at all.

They are less important though.  Peripheral or less important, we can debate semantics, but they aren't key.  The story flows through to ASOS and then we hit problems.  In a narrow sense I would cut the Dornish and Ironborn characters introduced in AFFC/ADWD in order to fit in the battles of Fire and Ice that are key to the story.  In a broader and looser sense I would avoid growing the story too much and then struggling to pull all the pov arcs and sub-plots together which seems to me to be the issue with why we have had no story progression for so long.  If you think GRRM would have struggled as much to write the smaller / narrower story without the new Dornish / Ironborn povs as he has to write the larger / broader story then this isn't going to appeal to you as a solution.

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think you think the story is about the Starks versus the Lannisters and how that conflict is a horribly wasteful distraction from the coming of the Others (which are also tied to the Starks)

Nothing nearly so small.  I did say 

On 12/2/2021 at 10:18 AM, the trees have eyes said:

At heart the story flows most easily when it focuses on the Starks and Lannisters, the Wall and the IT and the two royal families, Targaryen and Barratheon.  The Ironborn and Dornish remain the easiest elements to prune.

I still think all that's true.

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think you minimize the Targaryen input into the story. Houses Stark and Lannister were originally fighting for control over the realm and the ability to be free from terror and tyranny...which is exactly what the Targaryens have always been gunning for. The Greyjoy brothers -- both powerful -- are coming to blows over the last Targaryen, Queen Daenerys. However, this queen not only has unfinished business in the lands of her exile but she unexpectedly finds (or accidentally creates, depending on your point of view and which way the story goes) enemies in people who should be her allies: Aegon and the Martells.

Oh, I don't underestimate this and I certainly wouldn't minimize it.  Dany is one of the big three and absolutely central to the story: after all her story arc is what ties everything together.  But that doesn't mean anything that touches on her needs a pov and detailed development, any more than we need Dothaki or Tyrell povs.  Setting the scene for the second dance of the dragons is important but this can be done from Dany's pov and through Jon Connington's for Aegon's side of things.

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The problem with the writing seems to be that GRRM had to omit the five-year-gap and didn't create a solidly comprehensive outline that he stuck to.

Undoubtedly the case but the way he chose to adress this seems to have added to rather than solved his problems.

[the trees have eyes]

15 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Fuck me I forgot this is why she was killed in the tv show. Absolute garbage tbh. Like imagine sacrificing your own daughter and heir just because you wanted some good weather.

IIRC When Agamemnon gathered the Greek forces to sail against Troy there was dead calm for a long period of time (I think because one of the Gods, Artemis, was angry with him).  A seer told Agamemnon the only way to appease Artemis was to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia.  So he did 

I imagine this was the inspiration for the show writers but still, seems too much...

[BlackLightning]

37 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

In a narrow sense I would cut the Dornish and Ironborn characters introduced in AFFC/ADWD in order to fit in the battles of Fire and Ice that are key to the story.

Then who will be the POVs for the battles of ice and fire. Who will be the Meereen POV once Dany leaves?

You could maybe make the case that Tyrion would be enough (he wouldn't be, he wasn't the only POV for the Battle of the Blackwater which is much smaller in scope than the Second Battle of Meereen) for Meereen. But you'd still need someone on the inside like Barristan. Even so, a lot of events (i.e. the Dragontamer chapter) would either be mysteries or would be told in flashback after-the-fact. Which really annoyed me about a lot of chapters in the first three books.

I guess that's the crux of my disagreement with you. I don't like it when somewhat large amounts of time passes between chapters and the events that happened during the time skip are told after the fact.

 

And what about Winterfell?

Theon? That'd be tough to pull off given his mental state and his inability to be anywhere near the action. Bran and Theon? That'd be even tougher since we're talking about "remoting in"

If you only have one POV for a battle, then you either skip past most of the battle and have the story told with flashback (i.e. Tyrion at the Green Fork, Dany at the First Battle of Meereen) or you spend twice as many chapters telling the story (Jon at Castle Black)

But I really like the way your mind works.

29 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

IIRC When Agamemnon gathered the Greek forces to sail against Troy there was dead calm for a long period of time (I think because one of the Gods, Artemis, was angry with him).  A seer told Agamemnon the only way to appease Artemis was to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia.  So he did 

I imagine this was the inspiration for the show writers but still, seems too much...

The problem here is that the showrunners never explored the nature of R'hllor (unlike the Greek gods in the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Ajax, etc.) and that Stannis' sacrifice did absolutely nothing for him or for anyone. At least Agamemnon's sacrifice worked.

I think the god who was mad at Agamemnon was Poseidon.

[BlackLightning]

13 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The Greyjoy and Martell storylines could have moved along much quicker IMO. I don't think we needed as may POVs as we got in Feast and Dance. Plus, I found the characters rather lackluster. Had the storylines and characters been a little more interesting, I probably wouldn't mind as much.

Right.

We could've easily done without Arys Oakheart. That chapter, while very good, could've easily become an Arianne chapter.

 

I don't know, I think you and @the trees have eyes sound way too much like D&D and their two-man writing team (which inexplicably vanished after season 6). The "let's downplay, speed through or cut the storylines in Dorne, the Free Cities and the Iron Islands" and "let's focus on the Iron Throne instead of the magic" mentality is what led to the  disaster we had in the TV show.

• We saw what happened when you rush through these storylines in season 5 with Dorne. And instead of trying to fix it, they rush through it even more resulting in the Dornish messes you got in season 6 and 7. Only for them to suddenly reappear inexplicably and do fuck all in the season 8 finale.
• We saw what happened when you neuter and try to over-combine characters with Euron in the last three seasons of the show. Victarion and Euron are very different characters with different motives that serve different purposes. Why try to combine them without honoring any of those unique characteristics.
• We saw what happens when you oversimplify a situation in seasons 5 and 6 with Meereen. The situation there was nowhere near as bad as it was in the books but the simplicity of the plot made all the characters (mainly Tyrion) look like useless idiots--a trend that only got worse.
• We saw what happens when you downplay plot elements and characters. Stannis and everything remotely related to R'hllor or Azor Ahai was downplayed or cut only to be downplayed again...until it didn't matter. Despite it being the main source of overt magic in the series.
• When you drop storylines, it leaves gaping holes in character development. Lady Stoneheart might just be the thing that pushes Jaime back into Cersei's arms...it would make sense. Instead we have Jaime doing a heel-face-turn and talking about he never cared at all. The forced abolishment of slavery in the happy, healthy and wealthy Free Cities might make Daenerys look more like a tyrant. Instead, we have the character being driven over the edge by the ringing of bells and then be murdered in the last two episodes of the series.

 

If you cut or skim past too much, you have a situation like season 7 and 8 and how they felt very empty, colorless and messy without fAegon. There was absolutely nothing to do in season 7 because of the absence of fAegon and the profound lack of consequences for the Lannisters due to the absence of fAegon.

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

IIRC When Agamemnon gathered the Greek forces to sail against Troy there was dead calm for a long period of time (I think because one of the Gods, Artemis, was angry with him).  A seer told Agamemnon the only way to appease Artemis was to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia.  So he did 

I imagine this was the inspiration for the show writers but still, seems too much...

It seems too much because its honestly unbelievable for stannis to actually go through killing his own blood just for a good weather. Renlys death is more fitting with his character. And he is still doubting and regretting making that decision.

Even the example you gave makes more sense since an enormous fleet carrying an enormous army requires good weather to sail. If you dont have good weather than bye bye grand invasion.

But in truth the show runners disliked stannis as a character, it’s quite obvious. You can tell by all the whitewashing they did with characters like Cersei and Tywin. They ran the show with their own bias views towards asoiaf characters.

[Apoplexy]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The "let's downplay, speed through or cut the storylines in Dorne, the Free Cities and the Iron Islands" and "let's focus on the Iron Throne instead of the magic" mentality is what led to the  disaster we had in the TV show.

I don't think the show was a disaster because storylines were cut. IMO it was a disaster because the storylines that were kept were handled terribly and lazily. Adding more variables would not have helped the show. With the books, I find the iron island and dorne characters extremely tedious to read. It shows that they were meant to be described as memories and flashbacks because they are nowhere as interesting as the characters till Storm. They seem almost like fillers added in the end because nothing else seemed to work out.

I think the show fine until season 7. Not the best but not terrible either. And I personally think season 8 was salvageable despite the nuttiness of season 7 had season 8 been handled better. Even having 10 episodes for seasons 7 and 8 could have mitigated some of the problems towards the end.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

GOT was a disaster because it lacked internal logic. Once they went off the books, none of the plots could hold up under any bit of introspection. This is also why there was no point in trying to predict what would happen next, like a lot of show fans would. You couldn’t predict anything because everything was random and had no consistency.

[the trees have eyes]

22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

It seems too much because its honestly unbelievable for stannis to actually go through killing his own blood just for a good weather. Renlys death is more fitting with his character. And he is still doubting and regretting making that decision.

Even the example you gave makes more sense since an enormous fleet carrying an enormous army requires good weather to sail. If you dont have good weather than bye bye grand invasion.

But in truth the show runners disliked stannis as a character, it’s quite obvious. You can tell by all the whitewashing they did with characters like Cersei and Tywin. They ran the show with their own bias views towards asoiaf characters.

I agree, mostly.  Agamemnon had four children, Stannis only the one so it seems utterly implausible that he would sacrifice Shireen as his lineage dies with her.  The sacrifice seemed to make him out as utterly in thrall to Mel and a narrow-minded zealot with no humanity or emotion, basically a total douchebag.  But then again if he truly believes the R'hllor shtick and that he is the last hero / prince that was promised etc.. who must do what is necessary to save the world then the sacrifice is loosely analagous to Azor Ahai quenchinng Lightbringer in Nissa Nissa's heart in order to go on and save mankind.  I think they were aiming for the latter but managed the former or maybe they thought the former made better viewing (more dramatic, more emotive and more contentious, certainly darker and edgier).

Either way, he's not winning the Dad of the Year award.

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

Then who will be the POVs for the battles of ice and fire. Who will be the Meereen POV once Dany leaves?

POV creep is always hard to avoid as there is always a good reason to add another to give a different perspective or, as you say, the appropriate one isn't in situ.  But you provide the answers even if you find them unsatisfactory: Tyrion (and one of those POV creepers, Barristan) is at Meereen and Theon is at Stannis's camp.

The battles are key to the story advancement but that doesn't mean they have to be The Pelennor Fields or The Blackwater.  The Greenfork, The Whispering Wood and The Wildling assault on The Wall are all told from one POV (Tyrion, Catelyn, Jon).  Even The Blackwater is really told from Tyrion's pov with an intro by Davos and Sansa huddling inside KL.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

Which really annoyed me about a lot of chapters in the first three books.

I guess that's the crux of my disagreement with you. I don't like it when somewhat large amounts of time passes between chapters and the events that happened during the time skip are told after the fact.

I didn't find this a problem and maybe reflects our preferences for how the story is told: more povs and more detail vs what the author judged enough to tell a satisfying story while moving it along quickly.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

If you only have one POV for a battle, then you either skip past most of the battle and have the story told with flashback (i.e. Tyrion at the Green Fork, Dany at the First Battle of Meereen) or you spend twice as many chapters telling the story (Jon at Castle Black)

All the battles have worked fine for me.  Even things like the Sack of Winterfell where we see almost nothing of the actual combat between The Boltons and the other Northmen.  It depends what you want from the "action" so to speak, lots of combat tactics and hack and slash, or an outline with some dramatic momemts for our POV participant (Tyrion on both The Greenfork and The Blackwater).  I don't need another POV to see the other side particularly.  The Blackwater is stupendous but the multiple POV format is really only there so we can witness the wildfire firsthand from inside Davos's head: Tyrion could just as easily have watched and described it in real time from the city walls.  And if you told the wildling assault on The Wall from two POVs you might lose a Jon chapter but you would gain another from the other POV and they would have to be introduced and fleshed out before being dropped into the battle scene: so you might even add a couple of chapters.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

The problem here is that the showrunners never explored the nature of R'hllor (unlike the Greek gods in the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Ajax, etc.) and that Stannis' sacrifice did absolutely nothing for him or for anyone. At least Agamemnon's sacrifice worked.

I think the god who was mad at Agamemnon was Poseidon.

Yeah, Stan got sold a pup.  It didn't work for anyone in story or for anyone watching it that I know.

Poseidon makes the most sense as God of the Sea but I did a quick Google and it said Artemis and as I belive everything I read on the Internet...

On 1/25/2022 at 4:19 PM, BlackLightning said:

I don't know, I think you and @the trees have eyes sound way too much like D&D and their two-man writing team (which inexplicably vanished after season 6). The "let's downplay, speed through or cut the storylines in Dorne, the Free Cities and the Iron Islands" and "let's focus on the Iron Throne instead of the magic" mentality is what led to the  disaster we had in the TV show.

Ah, ok.  If your overriding imperative is to avoid the mistakes you think the Show made (and as you detail them) then, sure, you won't want to axe anything at all and your preference will be to stick as closely as possible to what GRRM has written.  I don't think the Show is a good indication of how GRRM would have written the story if he had kept it narrower and I would avoid comparing the two too closely but I understand your position.

I think the problem for the Show was going from published novels that they adapted for tv to trying to guess from GRRM's outline and changing intentions what the official story was actually going to be and how they could fit that to what they had already produced, which is of course an adaptation of what had been written.  They had to resolve some things GRRM hadn't (and hasn't) been able to based on the actors and sets and plots they had fashioned into the story on screen.  Whether he can resolve them satisfactorily in the novels remains to be seen but I think he would have had a better chance and more appetite if he had kept the story more manageable.

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Either way, he's not winning the Dad of the Year award.

That goes to Roose