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Things you would have changed in the books?


Daenerysthegreat

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I would have written the plot in a way that doesn't give the Lannisters five miles thick of plot armor. The problem with their survival is that there are so many events that roll in their favour that it ends up feeling contrived. 

Just look at the first book alone. 

  • Jaime and Cersei have been not very discrete lovers for decades. They are only ever found out by people that either don't want to rat on them, or by people who get easily shuffled off the board with minimal effort. 
  • Bran stumbles across them in congress, gets thrown out the window and survives, but just conveniently forgets the whole incident because if he didn't then he could have told people and burst the Lannister bubble. 
  • Tyrion on multiple occasions encounters people who can be easily negotiated with in exchange for vague promises of gold (Bronn, Mountain Clans, ect), who all have an outsized impact on allowing him to survive and come out on top of situations he gets boxed into. 
  • Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's incest, so she kills Robert with the most ridiculous of plans (depending on him to get drunk, to be so drunk that he someone gets injured, to be so injured that he somehow dies, to die quickly enough that he can't receive the truth of the adultery or can't act on it) and it just werks.
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6 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I would have written the plot in a way that doesn't give the Lannisters five miles thick of plot armor. The problem with their survival is that there are so many events that roll in their favour that it ends up feeling contrived. 

Just look at the first book alone. 

  • Jaime and Cersei have been not very discrete lovers for decades. They are only ever found out by people that either don't want to rat on them, or by people who get easily shuffled off the board with minimal effort. 
  • Bran stumbles across them in congress, gets thrown out the window and survives, but just conveniently forgets the whole incident because if he didn't then he could have told people and burst the Lannister bubble. 
  • Tyrion on multiple occasions encounters people who can be easily negotiated with in exchange for vague promises of gold (Bronn, Mountain Clans, ect), who all have an outsized impact on allowing him to survive and come out on top of situations he gets boxed into. 
  • Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's incest, so she kills Robert with the most ridiculous of plans (depending on him to get drunk, to be so drunk that he someone gets injured, to be so injured that he somehow dies, to die quickly enough that he can't receive the truth of the adultery or can't act on it) and it just werks.

Almost every main character has huge amounts of plot armour, it's not limited to the Lannisters. Arya, Jon and Daenerys are far more egregious examples of ridiculous levels of plot armour. ESPECIALLY Arya. 

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8 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Almost every main character has huge amounts of plot armour, it's not limited to the Lannisters. Arya, Jon and Daenerys are far more egregious examples of ridiculous levels of plot armour. ESPECIALLY Arya. 

Sure, and all those characters are bad characters. 

I loathe Arya with the force of ten thousand suns. 

I consider Daenerys' entire post-Drogo arc to be complete nonsense. 

And Jon Snow is an angsty whinelord.

They all benefit from George's obsession with "Bastards, cripples, and broken things" or whatever it's called. This should never be denied and is a core problem with the series itself.

The reason I single the Lannisters out is that they enjoy plot armour above and beyond that which should be given to designated protagonists. 

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16 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

The reason I single the Lannisters out is that they enjoy plot armour above and beyond that which should be given to designated protagonists. 

Aside from Tyrion surviving a bunch of battles when he almost certainly should not have, I don't think they have all that much plot armour, and if it is there, it feels far more naturally consistent with the story than other examples. To respond to your points about the Lannisters:

7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Jaime and Cersei have been not very discrete lovers for decades. They are only ever found out by people that either don't want to rat on them, or by people who get easily shuffled off the board with minimal effort. 

I don't think this is plot armour, it's just a natural result of them being highborn. They have the power to get rid of non-highborn people that are a nuisance to them, without any repercussions. That's a pretty basic trait of nobles. There isn't really much that can be done about it. Tywin has the ultimate authority in the Lannister family, and unless he saw it directly, he would never allow anyone to take action against his children. And Tywin had a huge case of cognitive dissonance when it came to Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Bran stumbles across them in congress, gets thrown out the window and survives, but just conveniently forgets the whole incident because if he didn't then he could have told people and burst the Lannister bubble. 

It's not unusual for someone to suffer short term memory loss after a severe traumatic injury.

7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Tyrion on multiple occasions encounters people who can be easily negotiated with in exchange for vague promises of gold (Bronn, Mountain Clans, ect), who all have an outsized impact on allowing him to survive and come out on top of situations he gets boxed into. 

I agree that Tyrion weasels his way out of situations where realistically he shouldn't have. I won't defend this one; Martin's admitted favouritism towards Tyrion is very obvious.

7 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's incest, so she kills Robert with the most ridiculous of plans (depending on him to get drunk, to be so drunk that he someone gets injured, to be so injured that he somehow dies, to die quickly enough that he can't receive the truth of the adultery or can't act on it) and it just werks.

The boar incident is definitely one of the more ridiculous plot contrivances of the series, but there are many examples of similar things throughout the series with other characters. And there are at least some elements of the "plan" that make sense - Robert is a severe alcoholic, he loves to hunt, and because of his weight he's slower than he used to be. Cersei knew all of this, so it's not unreasonable to assume that she could have seen an opportunity here. She got extremely lucky, yes, but Robert was going to die anyway - it needed to happen for the rest of the story to progress. Unlike with Tyrion or Arya, this wasn't a case of Martin using plot contrivances to save one of his favourite characters from certain-death; it was done so the entire rest of the series could continue. It's not the same as Tyrion and Arya constantly surviving battles when physically they should not be able to.

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On 11/21/2021 at 4:57 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

Almost every main character has huge amounts of plot armour, it's not limited to the Lannisters. Arya, Jon and Daenerys are far more egregious examples of ridiculous levels of plot armour. ESPECIALLY Arya. 

Jon’s plot armour comes in not having to perform morally dubious acts that another character in his place would have to (eg killing Ygritte or Mance or the old man) and escaping the consequences.  Sparing Ygritte turns out for the best, while Stannis and Summer save him at the last moment.

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22 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I would have written the plot in a way that doesn't give the Lannisters five miles thick of plot armor. The problem with their survival is that there are so many events that roll in their favour that it ends up feeling contrived. 

 

I mean, this plot armor is at least good and better and far more necessary for the story than Brienne and Jaime's and practically everyone at the BoW. 

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22 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I don't think this is plot armour, it's just a natural result of them being highborn. They have the power to get rid of non-highborn people that are a nuisance to them, without any repercussions. That's a pretty basic trait of nobles. There isn't really much that can be done about it. Tywin has the ultimate authority in the Lannister family, and unless he saw it directly, he would never allow anyone to take action against his children. And Tywin had a huge case of cognitive dissonance when it came to Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

Imagine you're a lowborn servant or else just some low ranked lordling. You're minding your own business and then one day you open the door to some random room and there is the Queen and the Kingslayer rutting like animals. 

They have no chance of stopping you from revealing their dirty secret. You just turn around and run away screaming to everyone who can hear that you just caught Cersei and Jaime going at it. It's not like they can run after you butt naked trying to shut you down. 

Either they'll be caught outright by curious people looking to verify the story, or they'll be quick enough to get dressed and split. If they manage to get away and deny the accusations then people will still be watching them very closely to see if the allegations are true. 

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It's not unusual for someone to suffer short term memory loss after a severe traumatic injury.

It's not unusual in and of itself, but it's just example of yet another thing oh so conveniently working out for the Lannisters. But it would be less contrived for Bran to simply be in a coma until the war starts, and then wake up remembering everything when it's too late to matter. 

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The boar incident is definitely one of the more ridiculous plot contrivances of the series, but there are many examples of similar things throughout the series with other characters. And there are at least some elements of the "plan" that make sense - Robert is a severe alcoholic, he loves to hunt, and because of his weight he's slower than he used to be. Cersei knew all of this, so it's not unreasonable to assume that she could have seen an opportunity here. She got extremely lucky, yes, but Robert was going to die anyway - it needed to happen for the rest of the story to progress. Unlike with Tyrion or Arya, this wasn't a case of Martin using plot contrivances to save one of his favourite characters from certain-death; it was done so the entire rest of the series could continue. It's not the same as Tyrion and Arya constantly surviving battles when physically they should not be able to.

Sure, it "had" to be done to make the series go on, but it's a good example of the world essentially bending over backwards to ace things in the hole for the Lannisters. 

Would it really have been that difficult to simply have Cersei arrange for Robert to be outright assassinated, or poisoned, or shoved down the stairs, or whatever else that had to be done to kill him without making it look like she won the lottery?

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1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

They have no chance of stopping you from revealing their dirty secret. You just turn around and run away screaming to everyone who can hear that you just caught Cersei and Jaime going at it. It's not like they can run after you butt naked trying to shut you down. 

Either they'll be caught outright by curious people looking to verify the story, or they'll be quick enough to get dressed and split. If they manage to get away and deny the accusations then people will still be watching them very closely to see if the allegations are true. 

If a lowborn servant started shouting out shocking and vile claims about the children of Tywin Lannister, that lowborn servant would find themselves very quickly being brutally tortured or just straight-up executed. You think Tywin would let anyone get away with that? And even if they do manage to tell a lot of people before being seized, you think these other lowborn people would do anything about it? Being in such fear of Tywin's wrath, they'd be silent very quickly, deny it all, and call the servant a liar. 

This is Tywin Lannister we're talking about, about as far from a kind and merciful lord as you could find. 

2 hours ago, The Jingo said:

It's not unusual in and of itself, but it's just example of yet another thing oh so conveniently working out for the Lannisters. But it would be less contrived for Bran to simply be in a coma until the war starts, and then wake up remembering everything when it's too late to matter. 

Maybe, but that's not the way Martin wanted to write the story, and since there's absolutely nothing unusual about short-term memory loss after traumatic incidences, I don't think it's fair to level any criticism at Martin for this. It's one of least egregious examples of convenience in the entire series. 

2 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Would it really have been that difficult to simply have Cersei arrange for Robert to be outright assassinated, or poisoned, or shoved down the stairs, or whatever else that had to be done to kill him without making it look like she won the lottery?

Any other means of death would seem very suspicious, poisoning especially so considering how recently Jon Arryn died of "unexplained circumstances". And Robert was shadowed by the kingsguard most places he went, so it's not like some random person could just quickly do him in. Cersei didn't yet have the influence to pull off the shady shit she did in later books. The boar incident was very convenient and borderline contrived, yes, but it was also the least suspicious way to kill him, by far.

I don't know, I think we're just arguing in circles. You think the Lannisters get an unfair level of plot armour and convenience, and I don't - I consider it to be fairly standard for this series. Certainly not bad enough to take issue with over others.

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1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

If a lowborn servant started shouting out shocking and vile claims about the children of Tywin Lannister, that lowborn servant would find themselves very quickly being brutally tortured or just straight-up executed. You think Tywin would let anyone get away with that? And even if they do manage to tell a lot of people before being seized, you think these other lowborn people would do anything about it? Being in such fear of Tywin's wrath, they'd be silent very quickly, deny it all, and call the servant a liar. 

This is Tywin Lannister we're talking about, about as far from a kind and merciful lord as you could find. 

Maybe, but that's not the way Martin wanted to write the story, and since there's absolutely nothing unusual about short-term memory loss after traumatic incidences, I don't think it's fair to level any criticism at Martin for this. It's one of least egregious examples of convenience in the entire series. 

Any other means of death would seem very suspicious, poisoning especially so considering how recently Jon Arryn died of "unexplained circumstances". And Robert was shadowed by the kingsguard most places he went, so it's not like some random person could just quickly do him in. Cersei didn't yet have the influence to pull off the shady shit she did in later books. The boar incident was very convenient and borderline contrived, yes, but it was also the least suspicious way to kill him, by far.

I don't know, I think we're just arguing in circles. You think the Lannisters get an unfair level of plot armour and convenience, and I don't - I consider it to be fairly standard for this series. Certainly not bad enough to take issue with over others.

The problem with fearing Tywin is that, most of the time they were in Kings Landing, not Casterly Rock.  And Tywin isn't in charge there.  Robert and Jon Arryn were.  And they might well have taken any accusation seriously.  In any event, judging from their thoughts and their actions at Winterfell, they were generally pretty careful and discreet, so their not getting caught isn't really surprising.  It also helps that it is not suspicious for them to spend time alone together, or even to show affection, given that they are siblings.

As for plot armor in general, Arya and Jon got a lot.  Arya needed a whole closet full just to get out of Kings Landing, and Jon was saved fortuitously more than once.  On the other hand, characters like Catelyn and Sansa seem to have the opposite of plot armor.  Whatever the worst possible outcome, they get it.  It's the nature of fiction.  Though the timing of Robert's death is a bit ridiculous. 

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Both Varys and Littlefinger have very strong plot armors.

After all Varys served paranoid king who burned a lot of people just bc he did not have access to Viagra. I assume that major reason why V outlived that king and did not became blue pill was that he found enough people who burned instead of him. But there should have been many people that hated V bc their friends and kin died. Those angry people were not problem to him as long Varys was protected by ruling king but as soon Aerys II was dead V should had became target of many people who wanted to revenge people they had lost bc certain spymaster did his work.

Littlefinger pissed off 3 major houses (Arryns, Starks and Tullys) by claiming that he had slept with both daughters of ruling lord of Riverrun and wives of heads of houses Arryn and Stark. So if any VIP among those houses mentioned above would had heard even a rumor about that happening LF should had just "disappeared". After all if nobody like Baelish hurts reputation of any great houses that small fry would be smashed without any mercy. In fact in my version he would have found himself bound in sack that was dumped middle of Narrow Sea.

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On 11/19/2021 at 2:37 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I don't know, these are some extreme changes!

Absolutely.  The idea is to leave the first three books intact but to prevent the drift and delay that the story has been mired in since.  AGOT, ACOK and ASOS are all terrific books that were published in a 5 year period 1996-2000 (or thereabouts).  In the following 10 years we had two books that are really separate halves of one book with the character arcs reuniting towards the end of ADWD.  In the 10 years since we've had nothing.  Cutting a lot of the newer arcs and moving things on would give us a different story to what we have now but I think he would have found it easier to progress.

On 11/19/2021 at 2:37 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Personally, I don't think it's fair to say that a given plot element serves no purpose when the series is not yet finished.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that as GRRM's creativity is exceptional, it's just that difficult decisions need to be made about what to include and what to leave out.  He's said himself he has got too many balls in the air but as he put them there he has a responsibility to keep juggling.  I'm wielding the axe for him.

On 11/19/2021 at 2:37 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

GRRM is certainly someone who likes his big dramatic moments to feel earned rather than simply because the genre demands it. I would argue that Brienne's AFFC chapters are quite important thematically, because they help to establish the author's existentialist attitude about heroism

Yes and they are beautifully written too but that's part of the problem: he envisaged these scenes and character arcs and build up to the stories he wanted to tell but hasn't been able to tie it all together and resolve it (yet).  Preventing the growth in the first place, "the tale grew in the telling", seems the most effective way of allowing this to happen.

On 11/19/2021 at 6:04 PM, BlackLightning said:
  1. I strongly disagree with you on this point. Oberyn dies and is always meant to die. You will need -- at the very least -- Arianne as a POV. Theon is also far removed from the Ironborn story. How is he supposed to cover for Asha and Aeron at the Kingsmoot and in the North with Stannis when he is a prisoner of the Boltons? Theon's story is and always has been about the North.
  2. What do you do with Brienne? Does she not become a POV? Does Jaime get roped in with Lady Stoneheart by having Brienne just randomly walk up to him and ask him to follow her. That could work but...again, a lot of worldbuilding necessary for the final books is lost. Unless, you just dump it all in Jaime's POV.

You're being more granular on the detail than I am but as I'm advocating for character arcs and povs to be cut to allow the story to move forward more easily, it stands to reason that some elements don't get included.  E.G why do we need the Kingsmoot if we're not introducing Ironborn characters?  Why do we need Brienne to introduce Jaime to Catelyn?  They already know each other and he swore her a certain oath to return her daughters.

The problem as I see it is GRRM couldn't decide what to leave out and that's why the story grew and then trod water.  If you don't share that view of the problem then you really won't agree with my solution!

On 11/19/2021 at 6:04 PM, BlackLightning said:
  1. Not necessarily. If you put all of the characters and all their stories all in the same book, you don't get both the Battles of Ice and Fire in the same book. There's no way. Unless you want a book that is the same size as the King James Bible.

You know it was his intent to include both battles in the book?  But they were pushed out becaused too much got in the way.  Things like Tyrion's travels and Quentyn and Victarion / Aeron.  There was a way to achieve his intent with tighter narrative focus and more ruthless control of chapter count.  We get a slimmer story but still a (and arguably more) satisfying one.

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On 11/15/2021 at 6:14 PM, Rondo said:
  1. Increase the pages for the following: Victarion, Daenerys, Barristan, and Tyrion.  

The correct number of POV chapters for Victarion is zero. I feel brain cells dying when I read his chapters.

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5 hours ago, Rondo said:

I feel brain cells dying when I read Sansa's chapters.  :D

No. Sansa may be an idiot sometimes, but it's nothing compared to Victarion and the Ironborn chapters (except for Asha). My only consolation is that his ships will most likely become Dany's. 

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On 11/29/2021 at 12:09 PM, the trees have eyes said:

why do we need the Kingsmoot if we're not introducing Ironborn characters?

But we are introducing Ironborn characters.

  1. Victarion is literally trying to give Dany an armada to: 1) transport her armies and supplies and 2) defend her coastal and maritime holdings. Plus, Victarion also comes with a couple thousand seasoned warriors who can fight on land or at sea. Victarion is also a skilled admiral.
  2. Euron is shaping up to be The Big BadTM of the entire series, outpacing even Varys, Littlefinger and maybe even the Great Other/Night King (if such a thing exists...which is doubtful).

I don't know if I need to remind you but Euron is a close blood relative of Theon (who is tied to the Starks and the North) and he is trying to "marry" Dany (re: make her into a sex slave) and take her birthright for himself--said birthright being the Iron Throne. Euron also has declared himself a King separate and apart from the Iron Throne which makes him an enemy of both anyone who is trying to rule a united Westeros and anyone who is trying to protect their own independent sovereign lands from piracy or invasion. Euron also has ties to the Faceless Men which is where Arya (probably one of the five most important characters in the entire show) currently is and with whom Sam is currently having to deal with. Also, all major cities in Westeros (except for White Harbor) are still extremely vulnerable to a naval attack...courtesy of once, again, Euron. And there are also multiple hints that Euron is a skinchanger who may or may not have been in contact with Bloodraven--which gives Euron a connection to Bran.

And Asha is what connects the Ironborn storylines to mainland Westeros (and especially Theon, the true king of the Iron Islands) and vice versa. She's been rubbing shoulders with a lot of people in the Baratheon camps and she'll be rubbing a lot more before she is through. Although Winterfell is the most pressing matter to attend to, Stannis Baratheon is going to be thinking about Pyke.

 

So yes, we absolutely need these Ironborn characters. Unless, you want to completely omit the Ironborn contribution to the story. At that point, you'd be worse than the TV show...because how is Dany getting to Westeros? Why even include the Iron Islands on the map at that point?

On 11/29/2021 at 12:09 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Why do we need Brienne to introduce Jaime to Catelyn?  They already know each other and he swore her a certain oath to return her daughters.

Firstly, Brienne is not introducing Jaime to Catelyn. She is presumably leading Jaime right into a trap set by Catelyn. There's a difference.

Secondly, it's true: we don't really need her. But if we don't have her, then Jaime's army will need to be attacked and routed and Jaime will need to have been forcibly separated and kidnapped. Jaime isn't just going to walk into the Brotherhood's lair nor is the Brotherhood going to be able to just walk up to Jaime.

After the events at Raventree Hall with the Blackwoods and the Brackens, you need to create a very different scenario of how Jaime meets Lady Stoneheart. It can be done and done well; it'd just be different and the story would not be so rich and deep.

It'd be too convenient and we already have enough people griping about how the plot is often awfully convenient.

On 11/29/2021 at 12:09 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The problem as I see it is GRRM couldn't decide what to leave out and that's why the story grew and then trod water.  If you don't share that view of the problem then you really won't agree with my solution!

On 11/19/2021 at 12:04 PM, BlackLightning said:

I do share that view of the problem.

But I don't think the solution is entirely necessary/proportionate.

If you want to get rid of a fly, you don't need a sledgehammer. Just get a fly-swatter and maybe some Raid.

On 11/29/2021 at 12:09 PM, the trees have eyes said:

You know it was his intent to include both battles in the book?  But they were pushed out becaused too much got in the way.  Things like Tyrion's travels and Quentyn and Victarion / Aeron.  There was a way to achieve his intent with tighter narrative focus and more ruthless control of chapter count.  We get a slimmer story but still a (and arguably more) satisfying one.

I know, I know.

But how do you keep Tyrion's Dance plotline along with the character arcs of Quentyn, Victarion and Aeron intact without completely omitting them? Because:

  • Okay, so fine. Aegon pops out of literally nowhere with the Golden Company at his back, Connington acting as his Hand and Varys popping back up in the epilogue to reveal that he has been working on restoring Aegon to the Iron Throne and undermining his enemies for the past ~17 years. It works. However, Tyrion changes a lot over the course of the book--if the Winds of Winter sample chapter was any indication, he is no longer the same Tyrion from A Storm of Swords...how do you write that?
  • Aeron is our POV camera for Euron. The only reason that the audience knows how bad Euron is, is because of Aeron--which makes it worst for the characters because they have no idea what's coming. I believe it's called dramatic irony
  • Quentyn basically foretells the obstacles and hardships that both Daenerys will face when coming back to Westeros and the fate that await people who try to steal/kill one of her soon-to-be adult dragons
  • Victarion is the solution to a lot of Dany's problems (i.e. the Qartheen blockade, the surprise Volantene armada that is coming, fresh new soldiers, an armada of ships, etc.)
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12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I do share that view of the problem.

But I don't think the solution is entirely necessary/proportionate.

If you want to get rid of a fly, you don't need a sledgehammer. Just get a fly-swatter and maybe some Raid.

I think we're talking past each other, which is okay as long as we realise we're not attempting to address the same issue so don't see it the same way.  You essentially explained why all these characters have been introduced in order to tell the story as we have it.  I know this but that's precisely what I advocated changing whereas you did a good imitation of GRRM's thought process and the reason for the inclusion of all these character arcs which led to this impasse.  If you don't want anything cut or the story changed at all that's equally fine but we are fixing different "problems".

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But we are introducing Ironborn characters.

So yes, we absolutely need these Ironborn characters. Unless, you want to completely omit the Ironborn contribution to the story. At that point, you'd be worse than the TV show...because how is Dany getting to Westeros? Why even include the Iron Islands on the map at that point?

But we don't need to.  Let's agree that to tell the story as it is you need almost everything that has been included.  The point I keep making is to avoid the story getting bogged down by removing the majority of the new character arcs in AFFC & ADWD.  The Ironborn have a major contribution to the story through AGOT - ASOS and so I fundamentally disagree with your reaction that not introducing new Ironborn characters is the same as removing them from the story.  That's an overreaction imo. He has a pov character he can move round as he chooses.  Also, Dany has a Khalasar and is likely to be getting a whole lot more: for this we need and have always needed precisely zero Dothraki characters.  The Ironborn (and Dornish) can remain in the background or, like the Tyrells, firmly in the foreground but without more povs.

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Firstly, Brienne is not introducing Jaime to Catelyn. She is presumably leading Jaime right into a trap set by Catelyn.

But how do you keep Tyrion's Dance plotline along with the character arcs of Quentyn, Victarion and Aeron intact without completely omitting them?

You're really just trying to retell the story as it is on page with some character omissions.  That's not my purpose.  The story would be different but it would be done.

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10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You essentially explained why all these characters have been introduced in order to tell the story as we have it.  I know this but that's precisely what I advocated changing whereas you did a good imitation of GRRM's thought process and the reason for the inclusion of all these character arcs which led to this impasse.  If you don't want anything cut or the story changed at all that's equally fine but we are fixing different "problems".

Ohhh okay I understand now.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Ironborn have a major contribution to the story through AGOT - ASOS and so I fundamentally disagree with your reaction that not introducing new Ironborn characters is the same as removing them from the story.

I get what you're saying.

Asha, Victarion and Aeron can still be characters; they just wouldn't be POVs.

Where I disagree with you is here: "the Ironborn have a major contribution to the story through AGOT - ASOS"

I think the Ironborn contribution in the first three books is minimal. They play a big role in A Clash of Kings but we don't hear anything from them (apart from expository dialogue between Theon and Bran) at all in A Game of Thrones and the stuff we are told in A Storm of Swords comes to us thirdhand in the POVs of Catelyn and Davos. And knowing how complex and jampacked those POVs were in Storm, the Ironborn are an afterthought.

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11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Asha, Victarion and Aeron can still be characters; they just wouldn't be POVs.

Where I disagree with you is here: "the Ironborn have a major contribution to the story through AGOT - ASOS"

Yep.  Mace, Margaery, Loras are important characters in the KL chapters.  Asha and Balon are introduced to us in ACOK through Theon's pov.  But the danger is still in introducing more story lines whether through new povs or not.  Up to the end of ASOS everything moves along fine - though ASOS was published in two volumes so maybe the problem of fitting everything in began earlier.  At heart the story flows most easily when it focuses on the Starks and Lannisters, the Wall and the IT and the two royal families, Targaryen and Barratheon.  The Ironborn and Dornish remain the easiest elements to prune.

The Ironborn have a major part to play in TWot5K and the fall of the North.  I don't mean they are present from prologue to epilogue in all three books but they impact the story told in the first three books in a major way through the existing povs.

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