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Things you would have changed in the books?


Daenerysthegreat

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On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

Then who will be the POVs for the battles of ice and fire. Who will be the Meereen POV once Dany leaves?

POV creep is always hard to avoid as there is always a good reason to add another to give a different perspective or, as you say, the appropriate one isn't in situ.  But you provide the answers even if you find them unsatisfactory: Tyrion (and one of those POV creepers, Barristan) is at Meereen and Theon is at Stannis's camp.

The battles are key to the story advancement but that doesn't mean they have to be The Pelennor Fields or The Blackwater.  The Greenfork, The Whispering Wood and The Wildling assault on The Wall are all told from one POV (Tyrion, Catelyn, Jon).  Even The Blackwater is really told from Tyrion's pov with an intro by Davos and Sansa huddling inside KL.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

Which really annoyed me about a lot of chapters in the first three books.

I guess that's the crux of my disagreement with you. I don't like it when somewhat large amounts of time passes between chapters and the events that happened during the time skip are told after the fact.

I didn't find this a problem and maybe reflects our preferences for how the story is told: more povs and more detail vs what the author judged enough to tell a satisfying story while moving it along quickly.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

If you only have one POV for a battle, then you either skip past most of the battle and have the story told with flashback (i.e. Tyrion at the Green Fork, Dany at the First Battle of Meereen) or you spend twice as many chapters telling the story (Jon at Castle Black)

All the battles have worked fine for me.  Even things like the Sack of Winterfell where we see almost nothing of the actual combat between The Boltons and the other Northmen.  It depends what you want from the "action" so to speak, lots of combat tactics and hack and slash, or an outline with some dramatic momemts for our POV participant (Tyrion on both The Greenfork and The Blackwater).  I don't need another POV to see the other side particularly.  The Blackwater is stupendous but the multiple POV format is really only there so we can witness the wildfire firsthand from inside Davos's head: Tyrion could just as easily have watched and described it in real time from the city walls.  And if you told the wildling assault on The Wall from two POVs you might lose a Jon chapter but you would gain another from the other POV and they would have to be introduced and fleshed out before being dropped into the battle scene: so you might even add a couple of chapters.

On 1/25/2022 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

The problem here is that the showrunners never explored the nature of R'hllor (unlike the Greek gods in the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Ajax, etc.) and that Stannis' sacrifice did absolutely nothing for him or for anyone. At least Agamemnon's sacrifice worked.

I think the god who was mad at Agamemnon was Poseidon.

Yeah, Stan got sold a pup.  It didn't work for anyone in story or for anyone watching it that I know.

Poseidon makes the most sense as God of the Sea but I did a quick Google and it said Artemis and as I belive everything I read on the Internet...

On 1/25/2022 at 4:19 PM, BlackLightning said:

I don't know, I think you and @the trees have eyes sound way too much like D&D and their two-man writing team (which inexplicably vanished after season 6). The "let's downplay, speed through or cut the storylines in Dorne, the Free Cities and the Iron Islands" and "let's focus on the Iron Throne instead of the magic" mentality is what led to the  disaster we had in the TV show.

Ah, ok.  If your overriding imperative is to avoid the mistakes you think the Show made (and as you detail them) then, sure, you won't want to axe anything at all and your preference will be to stick as closely as possible to what GRRM has written.  I don't think the Show is a good indication of how GRRM would have written the story if he had kept it narrower and I would avoid comparing the two too closely but I understand your position.

I think the problem for the Show was going from published novels that they adapted for tv to trying to guess from GRRM's outline and changing intentions what the official story was actually going to be and how they could fit that to what they had already produced, which is of course an adaptation of what had been written.  They had to resolve some things GRRM hadn't (and hasn't) been able to based on the actors and sets and plots they had fashioned into the story on screen.  Whether he can resolve them satisfactorily in the novels remains to be seen but I think he would have had a better chance and more appetite if he had kept the story more manageable.

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On 1/25/2022 at 2:05 PM, The Young Maester said:

It seems too much because its honestly unbelievable for stannis to actually go through killing his own blood just for a good weather. Renlys death is more fitting with his character. And he is still doubting and regretting making that decision.

 

I don't think it is far fetched at all, at least not for the Stannis in the books, the show version is much more noble than what we have in the books.

Stannis pretty much let Robert to die, he let his parental figure and loyal servent Master Cressen be poisoned, he killed Renly himself and he was about to burn Edric alive, family means nothing to him, only his ambition for the throne.

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19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Poseidon makes the most sense as God of the Sea but I did a quick Google and it said Artemis and as I belive everything I read on the Internet...

Oh I see what I did wrong.

You're right. Artemis was mad at Agamemnon. Poseidon was the one who was mad at Odysseus. I got the two mixed up.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I didn't find this a problem and maybe reflects our preferences for how the story is told: more povs and more detail vs what the author judged enough to tell a satisfying story while moving it along quickly.

Yeah, I think does illustrate our preferences.

Like for example, I would've liked to see Robb's invasion of the Westerlands with his chapters ending with his successful capture of the Crag and his being injured in A Clash of Kings and more details on the nature of his relationship with his wife and in-laws and his political struggles in A Storm of Swords.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't think it is far fetched at all, at least not for the Stannis in the books, the show version is much more noble than what we have in the books.

Stannis pretty much let Robert to die, he let his parental figure and loyal servent Master Cressen be poisoned, he killed Renly himself and he was about to burn Edric alive, family means nothing to him, only his ambition for the throne.

All this is true.

But remember the good weather that Stanley (you can't even call him Stannis in the TV show because he's a different character) sacrificed his own daughter for didn't even last long. And when people speak of good weather, they speak of clear skies and cool temperatures and ease of mobility.

Didn't happen.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

All this is true.

But remember the good weather that Stanley (you can't even call him Stannis in the TV show because he's a different character) sacrificed his own daughter for didn't even last long. And when people speak of good weather, they speak of clear skies and cool temperatures and ease of mobility.

Didn't happen.

Yeah, in the tv show it made no sense because show Stannis is much less ambitious and petty and much more noble than the book Stannis, but if book Stannis burned Shireen to help agaist the boltons, I would not be surprised, and it would not be out of character, if I not mistaken is one of the "spoilers" that the show gave us about the books, like the Hodor revelation, so it will happen.

 

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Like for example, I would've liked to see Robb's invasion of the Westerlands with his chapters ending with his successful capture of the Crag and his being injured in A Clash of Kings and more details on the nature of his relationship with his wife and in-laws and his political struggles in A Storm of Swords.

I would like to see it too, but not through Robb's Pov, but either from one of the minor lord of the westerlands, or from one of his commanders like Blackfish.

We only see Robb through the eyes of his family, it would cool to see if the facade that he puts as King is effective in the eyes of people that do not know him, and what they thought of him.

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Yeah, in the tv show it made no sense because show Stannis is much less ambitious and petty and much more noble than the book Stannis, but if book Stannis burned Shireen to help agaist the boltons, I would not be surprised, and it would not be out of character, if I not mistaken is one of the "spoilers" that the show gave us about the books, like the Hodor revelation, so it will happen.

 

The three spoilers that the show gave us about the books are:

  • Shireen burns, presumably as a sacrifice to R'hllor
  • Hodor's origins
  • Bran becoming the King of Westeros

That was all that was confirmed. No one knows who burnt Shrieen and why. A lot of people assume that it is Stannis but, as of now, it doesn't make sense. Even if Stannis gets desperate enough to send for Shireen (who is a couple hundred miles away) so that she can be sacrificed to turn the tide of battle, Melisandre won't be getting involved as her hands will be full with the Wall and what lies beyond. Melisandre could always burn Shireen without Stannis' consent or knowledge. Or maybe it is Selyse who does it (Selyse has always been unimpressed with Shireen and is itching for an opportunity to start over and have a son). And there there are the southern R'hllor-worshipping knights at the Wall and in the field are twice as fanatical, loose cannons.

Oh and then you can't forget about Val and the other wildlings who view greyscale-afflicted Shireen as a ticking time bomb and want her dead. How do wildlings get rid of their dead? They burn them.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I would like to see it too, but not through Robb's Pov, but either from one of the minor lord of the westerlands, or from one of his commanders like Blackfish.

We only see Robb through the eyes of his family, it would cool to see if the facade that he puts as King is effective in the eyes of people that do not know him, and what they thought of him.

But then what happens to that westerlord POV? It's not GRRM style to create POVs for the sake of having POVs and then discard them. POV characters are POV characters because they have a unique arcs.

Blackfish works but again. What do you do? Do you pick Blackfish back up in The Winds of Winter now that he has escaped?

We already know what people thought of Robb as king. We hear it from a bunch of different characters through the POVs of Davos, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Bran, Catelyn...

Everyone took him seriously. So, I think it's safe to say that the façade worked.

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On 1/27/2022 at 2:50 PM, BlackLightning said:

But then what happens to that westerlord POV? It's not GRRM style to create POVs for the sake of having POVs and then discard them. POV characters are POV characters because they have a unique arcs.

Blackfish works but again. What do you do? Do you pick Blackfish back up in The Winds of Winter now that he has escaped?

 We have Arys with only one chapter as POV and the Blackfish does play a relevant part in Feast if his story would continue.

 

On 1/27/2022 at 2:50 PM, BlackLightning said:

We already know what people thought of Robb as king. We hear it from a bunch of different characters through the POVs of Davos, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Bran, Catelyn...

 

 

I don't know if it works well though, even after Whispering Woods, Tyrion keeps treating Robb like a little kid that he can manipulate around, and when his schims fails like rescuing Jaime, or Robb's surprises him like in Oxcross, we have no reaction of Tyrion, we get reactions and information through Catelyn and Sansa. Roose didn't think very high of him and Edmure also had to be reminded by Blackfish that he was speaking to his king.

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I would have added a Sea Star connection to House Dayne. Especially given GRRM's naming conventions.

 

Sea Aster's are a flower. So named because Aster means Star in Greek. Its a flower that grows by the Sea and shaped like a Star. The symbolism to House Dayne, Dragons, Comets, and the Morning Star are dripping in the flowers symbolism.

Sea Star's are of course, Star Fish. The Star's of the Sea. Which are a class of Asteroidea. 

Starfish or sea stars are star-shaped echinoderms belonging to the class Asteroidea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish

 

This suggest a falling star into the Sea, that could have been an Asteroid or a comet. Which fits the themes of ASOIAF.

 

Describing a Dayne as a "Stern" man or woman would thus be metaphorically referring to them as a "Starman" or "Starwoman" as Stern means "Star" in German.

 

You also get the metaphor of a ship being struck in the stern and catching fire, sinking into the sea. The Stern of a ship being the rear section of the vessel. Another metaphor for a star sinking into the ocean.

 

With the "Dragon" constellation existing in the real world. Could connect the Dragon to the Comet and the Morning Star. As the "Day Star" is the "Morning Star"

The Dragon being the serpent who guards the sacred tree in Eden from which Adam and Eve ate. This same dragon is found in Greek mythology guarding the Apple Tree of Immortality givin to Hera by Zeus. 

These golden apples (House Fossoway) would play into the love between a mortal and the immortal goddess fell in love with (Que the Galladon and the Maid who fell in love with him myth). As Adam would hypothetically be the mortal, and Eve the immortal goddess unwilling to lose her lover to death.

 

This would connect the myth of the Empire of the Dawn with their 13 gemstone emperors. As Eosphorus (lucifer) is the 13th born since Adam and Eve. As his grandfather Hyperion is brothers to Iapetus, who is linked to Japheth of the Bible. Son of Noah. Noah being the 10th after Adam and Eve, and the Forbidden Fruit they stole.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus

Iapetus was linked to Japheth (יֶפֶת) one of the sons of Noah and a progenitor of mankind in biblical accounts.

 

The Latin word corresponding to Greek "Phosphorus" is "Lucifer". It is used in its astronomical sense both in prose[9] and poetry.[10] Poets sometimes personify the star, placing it in a mythological context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus_(morning_star)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)

 

 

Edit- Note that Lucifer is not the Serpent in the Garden that is associated with Satan. As Lucifer comes 13 generations after Adam, Eve and the Serpent in the Garden. The association of the Morning Star to Satan came later. This is why you can find Old English poems referring to Jesus as Earendel, which is cognate with Eosphorus, Lucifer. As Jesus announces himself as the Morning Star. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_I

Hail Earendel, brightest of angels,
Sent to men over middle-earth,
And true radiance of the sun,
Fine beyond stars, you always illuminate,
From your self, every season!
As you, God born wholly of God,
Son of the true Father, were ever
In the glory of heaven without beginning,

 

The Old Norse name Aurvandill stems from a Proto-Germanic form reconstructed as *Auza-wandilaz,[1] *Auzi-Wandalaz,[7] or *Auzo-wandiloz.[8][9] It is cognate with Old English Ēarendel, Old High German Aurendil (≈ Orentil), and Lombardic Auriwandalo.[1][2][10] The Gothic word auzandil, translating the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related.[10]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandill

 

Aurvandill (Earendil, Eosphorus, Lucifer) is listed as one of the Vanir in Norse mythology who went against the Aesir who overthrew the Jotun. 

In Greek mythology, Lucifer was one of the Titans overthrown by Zeus and the Olympians.

 

The God of the Old Testament is the one that floods the world (Odin/Zeus), where as the New Testament follows the Morning Star, and is not recognized by Jews or Muslims. 

Though the Old Testament names Baal Hadad as evil, Baal Hadad was Zeus. The Sky God or Storm God. The Old Testament though also uses the Term Elohim, which uses the pluralizing suffix of -him. Though modern interpretation is that it means "one mighty god". 

Just interesting theological stuff they debated through out the centuries leading to modern beliefs.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stapelia_hirsuta

Stapelia hirsuta,[1] common name starfish flower or carrion plant, is a species of flowering plant belonging to the family Apocynaceae.[2][3]

 

 

Another good "Star" flower as it links the Sea, and Carrion. Of which Crows are carrion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrion_crow

 

A way to possibly link Bloodraven to the Azor Ahai figure.

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Things i would have changed in the books:

1. Reduce Arya's travellogue to the Riverlands in the half chapters (COK, SOS).

2. FFC would include the first half of DWD and would cover a two-year period since the five year gap failed. Arianne is the only Dorne Pov. Asha and Victarion are the only Ironborne POVs. Brienne's and Tyrion's travellogues are reduced. Quentyn never becomes a POV and his story is seen through Tyrion's eyes who sees the fall of Astapor before coming to Meereen. Griff is seen through Tyrion's eyes too and Connighton never becomes a POV. 

3. DWD starts two years after the events of SOS with the events of the second half of DWD plus the battles of Ice and Fire and Aegon taking Storms End (through Arianne's eyes). 

 

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28 minutes ago, Lucia Targaryen said:

1. Age up the younger characters by a few years. 

2. Name the months to make keeping track of the timeline easier.

3. Release shorter books. 

#3 is so underrated. I wish he would just ditch the seven-book plan and release them in smaller increments—say, 750 pages instead of 1500.

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