The color of dragons' fire

[Anthony Appleyard]

A passage in the books described the dragon Balerion's fire as being black with red streaks. But hot flames are not black!? (Unless magic is involved.) But there are plenty of Youtube videos about real-world army flamethrowers, and some of them show a flamethrower making a petrol/gasoline flame of the usual bright color, and soon after, much black smoke. Could it be that GRRM looked at flamethrower videos to get an idea about what dragon fire might look like?

(I read that when the movies were being made, flamethrower blasts were used as special effects in dragon fire-breathing.)

 

[TheLastWolf]

There's a wiki page itself for this 

Spoiler

Each dragon can breath flames in a distinct color, potentially somewhat associated with the coloring of its body:

Not a Spoiler sorry 

Plus intensity increases with age 

VS Swords forged with Dragon flame like Longclaw. Influence blade's colors? @Seams

@Curled Finger

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

There's a wiki page itself for this 

  Reveal hidden contents

Each dragon can breath flames in a distinct color, potentially somewhat associated with the coloring of its body:

Not a Spoiler sorry 

Plus intensity increases with age 

VS Swords forged with Dragon flame like Longclaw. Influence blade's colors? @Seams

@Curled Finger

All true VS is forged with dragon flame.  Regular fire seems to darken the blade, as we learn from Aegon I's funeral pyre.   I am of a mind that dragon flame can destroy a blade like Lamentation.   There is an idea that dragon bone is utilized in the wootz to affect the dark color as well, but there is no evidence bone is used in VS.  Orphan-Maker is black so I assume it's been in a few mortal fires.  Will double check WW & OK to see if I can glean any detail on the not red portion of the blades--old Tobho sure didn't have access to any dragons for his reforging.  

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Curled Finger

 If VS is so heat resistant, then how did Tobho heat Ice enough to melt it down? 

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

A passage in the books described the dragon Balerion's fire as being black with red streaks. But hot flames are not black!? (Unless magic is involved.) But there are plenty of Youtube videos about real-world army flamethrowers, and some of them show a flamethrower making a petrol/gasoline flame of the usual bright color, and soon after, much black smoke. Could it be that GRRM looked at flamethrower videos to get an idea about what dragon fire might look like?

(I read that when the movies were being made, flamethrower blasts were used as special effects in dragon fire-breathing.)

 

It’s magic. 

[Curled Finger]

41 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Curled Finger

 If VS is so heat resistant, then how did Tobho heat Ice enough to melt it down? 

I think the heat of the fire is what makes the difference.   Rock melts at a certain temp whereas clay is merely hardened at a lower temp.  Forges can get hot enough to melt steel.   I think the main difference between making and reforging is the heat source--could very well be a dragon just blows fire on a hunk of metal real quick or just long enough to make it pliable.  (Remember references are there to VS being able to withstand regular fire, but there is no evidence it cannot withstand dragon fire--this is only my assumption in that the dragon fire is, well, magic).   For all we know dragon fire melts everything like the roads the Valyrians made.   Sounds like dragon fire is not temperature controllable?   All we have is legend regarding dragon fire being required to make VS from wootz. 

 

[TheBlackSwan]

  

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All true VS is forged with dragon flame.  

I don't think dragon flame is necesseray.
Martin said: « Forging techniques and spells, actually. There is magic involved in the making of Valyrian steel. »
Like you said, Tobho did'nt have a dragon to rework VS but he used "hundred of spells".
If we look at TWoIaF we learn that Qohorik smiths can make a steel that is « superior to even the best castle-forged steel of Westeros » but still not as good as VS. To make that steel they use human sacrifices. So if they have the forging techniques and the  human sacrifice (blood magic), the only thing they miss to make VS would be the spells. The Valyrians had no problem sharing the secret to repair their stuff but they would not share the secret to make their powerful steel and with the Doom those secrets spells were lost... but not really but I don't want to flood the post with another theory but check out Alabastur https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159799-the-nameless-people-who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/
Tldr: the Children of the Forest created the Others, it's the song of Ice. They had to correct their mistake to bring balance in the nature and they taught the Valyrians their arts and how to tame dragons: the song of Fire.
The Last Hero/Azor Ahai went to seek their help and end up with a magical firy sword and to get that sword he did a human sacrifice + had the help of the Children who knew the right spells, boom, Valyrian steel / dragonsteel / Lightbringer.
 

 

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

  

I don't think dragon flame is necesseray.
Martin said: « Forging techniques and spells, actually. There is magic involved in the making of Valyrian steel. »
Like you said, Tobho did'nt have a dragon to rework VS but he used "hundred of spells".
If we look at TWoIaF we learn that Qohorik smiths can make a steel that is « superior to even the best castle-forged steel of Westeros » but still not as good as VS. To make that steel they use human sacrifices. So if they have the forging techniques and the  human sacrifice (blood magic), the only thing they miss to make VS would be the spells. The Valyrians had no problem sharing the secret to repair their stuff but they would not share the secret to make their powerful steel and with the Doom those secrets spells were lost... but not really but I don't want to flood the post with another theory but check out Alabastur https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159799-the-nameless-people-who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/
Tldr: the Children of the Forest created the Others, it's the song of Ice. They had to correct their mistake to bring balance in the nature and they taught the Valyrians their arts and how to tame dragons: the song of Fire.
The Last Hero/Azor Ahai went to seek their help and end up with a magical firy sword and to get that sword he did a human sacrifice + had the help of the Children who knew the right spells, boom, Valyrian steel / dragonsteel / Lightbringer.
 

 

Could be as you say.   All we have is legend and our own suppositions.   Take what you like and run with it. 

[chrisdaw]

Quote

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.

Dragon's fire is magic and souls feed it, the flame attributes including colour are a loose symbolic nod towards the person(s) whose souls power the flame.

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All true VS is forged with dragon flame.  Regular fire seems to darken the blade, as we learn from Aegon I's funeral pyre.   I am of a mind that dragon flame can destroy a blade like Lamentation.   There is an idea that dragon bone is utilized in the wootz to affect the dark color as well, but there is no evidence bone is used in VS.  Orphan-Maker is black so I assume it's been in a few mortal fires.  Will double check WW & OK to see if I can glean any detail on the not red portion of the blades--old Tobho sure didn't have access to any dragons for his reforging.  

So if Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper aren't 'true' Valyrian steel, are they inferior in properties/characteristics? Nice possibility

Plus like Jaenyra said Tobho did melt it (how?), but like TheBlackSwan said spells, forging methods (fold rebeat) and adequate heat may/can substitute for dragonflame and Mott seems an expert.  

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Dragon's fire is magic and souls feed it, the flame attributes including colour are a loose symbolic nod towards the person(s) whose souls power the flame.

Interesting, but since it's canon that dragonflame color is influenced by the dragon's color scale pattern (that from egg) I'd say both are right. A soul who feeds the flame's temparament along with the rider too possibly...

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

So if Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper aren't 'true' Valyrian steel, are they inferior in properties/characteristics? Nice possibility

Plus like Jaenyra said Tobho did melt it (how?), but like TheBlackSwan said spells, forging methods (fold rebeat) and adequate heat may/can substitute for dragonflame and Mott seems an expert.  

Interesting, but since it's canon that dragonflame color is influenced by the dragon's color scale pattern (that from egg) I'd say both are right. A soul who feeds the flame's temparament along with the rider too possibly...

Nono, OK & WW are simply true VS refashioned.  A diamond is still a diamond after cutting and polishing after all!   Ice was made the original way, so I would expect whatever magic was in Ice carried over to the new swords.  Nothing saying the steel itself can't be melted and made different--only that it cannot be made originally.  There is some thinking and perhaps evidence for some of the swords having color--Blackfyre may have runes that light up, Red Rain may be red and of course the swirling red and black of OK & WW (that Jamie dreams become blue).  I think it would be very cool if the color of dragon flame affected the color of the steel in the finished product.  Tobho Mott is a master metalsmith who happens to know spells and folding/pounding methods specifically designed to recreate or repair VS from an original item.  

[Anthony Appleyard]

As regards Balerion's fire being described as black and red, I assumed that it was smoky.

[LynnS]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Anthony Appleyard said:

A passage in the books described the dragon Balerion's fire as being black with red streaks. But hot flames are not black!? (Unless magic is involved.) But there are plenty of Youtube videos about real-world army flamethrowers, and some of them show a flamethrower making a petrol/gasoline flame of the usual bright color, and soon after, much black smoke. Could it be that GRRM looked at flamethrower videos to get an idea about what dragon fire might look like?

(I read that when the movies were being made, flamethrower blasts were used as special effects in dragon fire-breathing.)

 

I've wondered about different color dragon fire as well.  Viserion has flame that is pale gold shot with red and orange.  Rhaegal fire is orange and yellow shot with veins of green.  These colors seem to correspond with their eggs as well as their bodies.

I've wondered if chemicals or mineral salts change the color of fire.

We might just have to put it down to magic.  

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Nono, OK & WW are simply true VS refashioned.  A diamond is still a diamond after cutting and polishing after all!   Ice was made the original way, so I would expect whatever magic was in Ice carried over to the new swords.  Nothing saying the steel itself can't be melted and made different--only that it cannot be made originally.  There is some thinking and perhaps evidence for some of the swords having color--Blackfyre may have runes that light up, Red Rain may be red and of course the swirling red and black of OK & WW (that Jamie dreams become blue).  I think it would be very cool if the color of dragon flame affected the color of the steel in the finished product.  Tobho Mott is a master metalsmith who happens to know spells and folding/pounding methods specifically designed to recreate or repair VS from an original item.  

Oh, originally as in without dragonflame or any ex VS blade to reforge. So Mott can't forge anything from plain steel with his spells and techniques, nicely suits the plot without stepping into a loose end, classic GRRM. Or we'd have possibility of secretly forged VS Blades ruining the plot. IIRC Marwyn the Mage or Urrathon Nightwalker (Euron alias) or both were rumoredd to know the processes. Qohorik too (they give off serious Gauls/Goths/'Barbarians' vibes). 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Oh, originally as in without dragonflame or any ex VS blade to reforge. So Mott can't forge anything from plain steel with his spells and techniques, nicely suits the plot without stepping into a loose end, classic GRRM. Or we'd have possibility of secretly forged VS Blades ruining the plot. IIRC Marwyn the Mage or Urrathon Nightwalker (Euron alias) or both were rumoredd to know the processes. Qohorik too (they give off serious Gauls/Goths/'Barbarians' vibes). 

Marwin and Urrathon have lit glass candles--i don't think they know anything about forging VS.  Now then if the glass candles are made of 1) dragon fire 2 dragon glass--do they shine with varied colors?  

[chrisdaw]

15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Interesting, but since it's canon that dragonflame color is influenced by the dragon's color scale pattern (that from egg) I'd say both are right. A soul who feeds the flame's temparament along with the rider too possibly...

Yes, colouring of flame and dragon, dragon size and particularly how hot the flame is are all symbolic of their first lives.

Quote

The more fiercely the man burned in life, the brighter his star will shine in the darkness.

[Seams]

I was thinking that the most memorable example of colored dragon flames is the shield used by Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen at the Trial of Seven in The Hedge Knight:

Quote

Aerion bore a three-headed dragon on his shield, but it was rendered in colors much more vivid than Valarr's; one head was orange, one yellow, one red, and the flames they breathed had the sheen of gold leaf.

...

Aerion was strong, but Dunk was stronger, and larger and heavier as well. He grabbed hold of the shield with both hands and twisted until the straps broke. Then he brought it down on the top of the princeling's helm, again and again and again, smashing the enameled flames of his crest. The shield was thicker than Dunk's had been, solid oak banded with iron. A flame broke off. Then another. The prince ran out of flames long before Dunk ran out of blows.

(The Hedge Knight)

Re-reading the relevant bits just now, I see that the colors are in the dragon's heads, not the flames. The flames are gold on the shield and red enamel on Aerion's helm. But Dunk defeats Aerion when he puts out the flames - with Aerion's own shield. Fighting fire with fire. 

Here's another example of colored flame that might contribute something to the discussion:

Quote

A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell. (Clash, Davos III)

The green flame comes from wild fire. I had a guess once that wild fire might be dragon blood (or made with dragon blood). In the Battle of the Blackwater, the Davos POV concludes with red-hot steel, suggesting that a smith is forging a weapon of some kind. The steel is in the form of a wall, however. I guess that could be a weapon. 

[Falcon2909]

Tessarion was a blue dragon. Did it breathe blue flames? Was it butane?

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Marwin and Urrathon have lit glass candles--i don't think they know anything about forging VS.  Now then if the glass candles are made of 1) dragon fire 2 dragon glass--do they shine with varied colors?  

Obsidian is black, the flame color only varies IMO, so maybe from the dragon which blew life (fire) into it

One green and three black candles were brought to the Citadel from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom of Valyria. They are tall and twisted with sharp edges.^[1] These glass candles give off an unpleasantly bright light that does strange things to colors (white becomes as bright as fresh fallen snow, yellow shines like gold, reds turns to flame, and shadows become so black that they look like holes in the world).^[2]

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes, colouring of flame and dragon, dragon size and particularly how hot the flame is are all symbolic of their first lives.

Eragon vibes...

5 hours ago, Seams said:

The green flame comes from wild fire. I had a guess once that wild fire might be dragon blood (or made with dragon blood).

Wow! Same hunch once but dismissed since I thought too improbable, but this discussion making me have second thoughts...

[TheLastWolf]

Random related thoughts

#1 Dragonbone is always black (rich in Iron lol) irrespective of dragon scale/fire color, steel like, lighter more flexible, good for bows, hilts and whip handles. 

#2 Ice dragons of the shivering sea, is their fire freezing? Could it be that their crystals are used to make swords like Dawn?

#3 Sea Dragons of the Sunset Sea, seen around the Jade, eat krakens and whales for breakfast lol, are they aquatic dino like (Loch ness monster) and do they breathe the equivalent of fire/ice (sea water?)

#4 https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ash_(river)

The Ash is a river which flows from the Mountains of the Morn through the Shadow Lands to the Jade Sea and the Saffron Straits. Asshai sprawls for leagues on both sides at the river's mouth. Much of the Ash's course in the Shadow Lands is through the Vale of Shadows,^[1] a valley so narrow that the water is perpetually in shadow. The corpse city of Stygai is located along the Ash in the heart of the Shadow,^[2] where two tributaries join.^[3]

During daytime the Ash is black in color, but at night it glimmers with a pale green phosphorescence. Fish in the Ash are blind and deformed, and traders thus bring food and freshwater to Asshai. Harmon's On Miasmas suggests that animals are more sensitive than humans to the polluted river.^[2] Demons, dragons, and worse creatures are said to inhabit caves in the cliffs above the Ash.^[2]

 

Thats all for now