Jaenara Belarys Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 What the title says. State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. Edit: Some other questions as well What will or would Jon think of Arya killing Dareon, and how do you think that'll affect their relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Dareon is a solid no. She took it on herself to "execute" him just because she's a Stark. The Insurance Man, I suppose you could argue she was following orders. Both acts were morally questionable at best. No that doesn't make her insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said: Dareon is a solid no. She took it on herself to "execute" him just because she's a Stark. You could say that he broke his oath and deserted, but that's refuted by the fact that they're in Braavos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Just now, Jaenara Belarys said: You could say that he broke his oath and deserted, but that's refuted by the fact that they're in Braavos. An oath forced at swordpoint as punishment for a crime he didn't commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 Just now, Lord Lannister said: An oath forced at swordpoint as punishment for a crime he didn't commit. True. But still an oath, and the feudal system is based on, well, oaths. It's one big trust system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 No of course not. If everyone took it upon themselves to kill who they felt needed killing, or to be an instrument to enable others to kill who they wanted, the world would be a lawless anarchy filled with suffering. A world that looks like the Riverlands she toured. Arya will come to understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystical Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Depends on what your definition of 'justification' is. Most killings in this book series have little or no justification as far as I'm concerned. But then I don't have the Planetos mindset. And even if you excuse them with law, rule, oaths, war etc., justification is still lacking because of power imbalance in the system, an individual rulers mindset and so forth. Neither killing was justified. 'I'm training to be an assassin' is an excuse but not a justification for killing the insurance man. When it comes to Daeron, if he was actually guilty of his crime which got him send to the wall, then he literally escaped his prison sentence which should be punished. However the severity of the punishment for that would depend on his original crime (if he was a murderer and ran away from his sentence, killing him could be justified). If I think of it in terms of the world they live in, I still don't think either is justified. Being an assassin is still just an excuse. Unless insurance man killed his clients or had them killed so he won't have to pay. But that wouldn't be Arya's justification since he is her job. Daeron was in Braavos where the Starks have no jurisdiction so Arya's justification that she has to do her duty as a Stark, holds no water. 22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: An oath forced at swordpoint as punishment for a crime he didn't commit. And marriages at sword point are binding even for high nobility. Same crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 She was not justified in killing Dareon. While he was a deserter, it's really none of her business. That said, while I regard it as her worst act, I can't get too upset about it either. Her moral structure is still forming, and she did have concrete reasons for desiring his death, so I'm not too worried about her killing random people, for example. But her association with the Faceless Men isn't helpful at this point. Insurance man I consider to be the fault of the Faceless Men. They manipulated and ordered her into doing it. In essence, she felt she had no real alternative. She's young, and all too malleable. I think they also recognize her craving to belong somewhere, and her fear of rejection and abandonment, and are taking advantage. While I think she is troubled, she is not insane, evil, or even all that bad. But she is, for an 11 year-old, far too comfortable with committing violent acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said: What the title says. Absolutely not justified. 1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said: State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. And anyone who disagrees with me is a poopy-pants :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 If I say anything it will now be an old lady slur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerysthegreat Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Yes she was Daeron was a deserter. In her eyes he is the worst of the worst. And he didn't just break his vows once or twice he was still shamelessly breaking them. Even though by now he must know that the others are coming. As for the insurance man if she didn't kill him she would have been thrown out of the house of black and white. And he must have some wrong for people to wish him dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Arya has a bad habit:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: What the title says. State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. Edit: Some other questions as well What will or would Jon think of Arya killing Dareon, and how do you think that'll affect their relationship? WHY,WHY,WHY,WHY? Just as the Arya's mental illness thing was about to die down. >:(. Fine, my two cents are that, it wasn't entirely justified but it isn't her worst act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Nevets said: She was not justified in killing Dareon. While he was a deserter, it's really none of her business. That said, while I regard it as her worst act, I can't get too upset about it either. Her moral structure is still forming, and she did have concrete reasons for desiring his death, so I'm not too worried about her killing random people, for example. But her association with the Faceless Men isn't helpful at this point. Insurance man I consider to be the fault of the Faceless Men. They manipulated and ordered her into doing it. In essence, she felt she had no real alternative. She's young, and all too malleable. I think they also recognize her craving to belong somewhere, and her fear of rejection and abandonment, and are taking advantage. While I think she is troubled, she is not insane, evil, or even all that bad. But she is, for an 11 year-old, far too comfortable with committing violent acts. Surely the bolded parts are beside the point. If we cannot first decide that what she did was wrong, we cannot even reach the discussion of whether her age, etc., are mitigating factors, or whether she might in the end be redeemed or forgiven. I'm not sure 11 is too young to know that murder is wicked, but if it is, we older persons have nothing to teach her, if we ourselves cannot even bring ourselves to say that murder is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 From a certain, very specific perspective, both murders were justified. Dareon was a deserter, and deserters forfeit their lives and must be executed as punishment (in the eyes of the people of this story's world). And the insurance man was done on the specific orders of her superiors. Now, obviously that's not a justification we would accept in the 21st century, but again, in the world of the series, it's understandable. Sandor Clegane was "cleared" by the Brotherhood for murdering Mhyca, because he was following a superior's orders. As much as being an assassin is seen as being lowly and dishonourable, it's still not as bad as being an oathbreaker, which Arya would have been if she hadn't have killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Wrong, but understandable, would be my view. Dareon was a piece of crap, but it was not her place to kill him. The insurance broker may or may not have been guilty, but most of the blame lies with The Kindly Man, rather than a traumatised 11 year old girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 13 hours ago, HoodedCrow said: If I say anything it will now be an old lady slur? No. Why would it be? 11 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said: WHY,WHY,WHY,WHY? Just as the Arya's mental illness thing was about to die down. >:(. Fine, my two cents are that, it wasn't entirely justified but it isn't her worst act. I was curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Because there was one. I believe the mods took it down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said: Because there was one. I believe the mods took it down? WHAT? What did the person say? What on Earth's an old lady slur anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 I think it best not to repeat it:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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