Was Arya justified in killing Dareon and the Insurance Man?

[Jaenara Belarys]

@HoodedCrow

[HoodedCrow]

Sorry Jaenara, I don’t speak icon.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Simply ranting, I'm curious as to who said it and what they said. It appears, however, that that knowledge will be lost to time, buried in the folds of memory. 

[Damsel in Distress]

Was Arya justified in killing Dareon and the Insurance Man?  NO.  Arya Stark was not justified in murdering those two men.  But Arya is damaged and has gone mad.  She just did it, killed them, but it doesn't mean those men deserved to get murdered.

[EggBlue]

On 11/18/2021 at 3:42 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

What the title says. State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. 

Dareon ? not at all. the fact that he was a deserter doesn't justify his execution by Arya Stark. only Wardan of the North is legally able to condemn the deserter to death. that's why when they capture the deserter at the beginning of the story , just anyone doesn't kill him. Ned does. .... this was by far the worst thing Arya ever did. though I still wouldn't call her "mad" or "crazy" or "unstable" as some have strongly believe in other threads.. she is a lost child both geographically and emotionally. who was there to teach her morality? faceless men? experiences at Harrenhal? the Hound?

Insurance guy? while it is not acceptable , it is in a way justifiable.. she didn't have much of a choice in the matter. she was manipulated into doing it and she couldn't see any other option in a foreign land where her weird orphanage would have thrown her out if she didn't kill this "bad man" .

On 11/18/2021 at 3:42 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

What will or would Jon think of Arya killing Dareon, and how do you think that'll affect their relationship? 

 

that depends on Jon's personality after his resurrection or failed assassination .. 

I think the Jon we have known so far would be shocked and sad but would feel he should save Arya and make her well again. but the future Jon may be more ruthless especially if he knows Dareon had betrayed Sam and Aemon.

[The Commentator]

On 11/17/2021 at 7:12 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

What the title says. State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. 

It was not morally nor legally justified.  But then Arya is mad.  Too much grief broke her mind. 

On 11/17/2021 at 7:12 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

 

Edit: Some other questions as well

What will or would Jon think of Arya killing Dareon, and how do you think that'll affect their relationship? 

 

Arya could murder half of Westeros and Jon would still love and protect her.  Those two were destined for each other.  I don't like them. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

11 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Arya could murder half of Westeros and Jon would still love and protect her.  Those two were destined for each other.  I don't like them. 

I sort of doubt that. Giving a sword and having a good relationship (as all siblings preferably should be, but not as close as House Targaryen ) doesn't mean that Jon would do all of that for her. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/17/2021 at 7:12 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

What the title says. State your opinion and do kindly keep it a bit civil, please. 

 

Edit: Some other questions as well

What will or would Jon think of Arya killing Dareon, and how do you think that'll affect their relationship? 

 

Are you trying to excuse Arya?  She is not a good person. You already know my answer. 
 

They were not justified. At least not morally justified. Arya killed Dareon because he disrespected her beloved brother, Jon Snow. It wasn’t about a duty to kill a criminal. Dareon, by dragging his butt around instead of sticking to his orders, was disrespecting Jon Snow. That was enough reason to kill him in the mind of Arya Stark. Dareon could have told his sad story and Arya would have killed him. Arya’s love for Jon pushed her to kill Dareon. 
 

Murdering the Insurance Man was a means to an end. The old man had done her no wrong. It’s the same thing with Varys and Kevan. She wants something and she has to kill to get it.

 

[TheLastWolf]

Jaenara has grown too fond of entertaining herself (and others like me) by baiting hate mongers (for want of a more polite title) that she has started her own threads. Since this is her thread and I believe there will be meaningful contributions apart from the usual hate drivel by x,y and z, I wont distract this topic so let me finish with a bit of parting advice (my sabbatical ahem)...

Spoiler

Enjoy while you can by having pseudo-serious discussions about the nobility of the Freys or Boltons or the extent of Stark savagery or the benevolence of the Fiery Fairy, because when Winds and/or Dream hits the stores, a lot of fantasies are going poof

Dasvedanya

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Jaenara has grown too fond of entertaining herself (and others like me) by baiting hate mongers (for want of a more polite title) that she has started her own threads. Since this is her thread and I believe there will be meaningful contributions apart from the usual hate drivel by x,y and z, I wont distract this topic so let me finish with a bit of parting advice (my sabbatical ahem)...

  Hide contents

Enjoy while you can by having pseudo-serious discussions about the nobility of the Freys or Boltons or the extent of Stark savagery or the benevolence of the Fiery Fairy, because when Winds and/or Dream hits the stores, a lot of fantasies are going poof

Dasvedanya

You forgot Janos Slynt the Martyr.

Oddly, one thing for which Jon can fairly be criticised harshly (the baby swap) rarely comes up.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

You forgot Janos Slynt the Martyr.

 

Oh, no. There's no way I'm starting a Martyr thread, I cheered when Janos had his head removed. 

3 hours ago, Laren Dorr said:

Are you trying to excuse Arya?  She is not a good person. You already know my answer. 

Errr, no. I do seem to recall that I said in the AMI thread that Arya shouldn't have killed Dareon, and that she probably didn't have much of a choice in terms of the Insurance Man. I am simply curious as to the opinions of people who can think relatively unbiased. 

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Jaenara has grown too fond of entertaining herself (and others like me) by baiting hate mongers (for want of a more polite title) that she has started her own threads.

I deny it! By all the gods, I deny it. My threads are on productive, logical topics. The Blacks and the Greens, Dany's mistakes in Slaver's Bay, the thread on the performance of the Unsullied and Dothraki....

[EggBlue]

47 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh, no. There's no way I'm starting a Martyr thread, I cheered when Janos had his head removed. 

that's weird! I wept uncontrollably upon the ruthless murder of the last true hero of the story , Mr.Janos Slynt!

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

that's weird! I wept uncontrollably upon the ruthless murder of the last true hero of the story , Mr.Janos Slynt!

"You are banished forthwith from the Kingdom of Rohan!"

[WhatAnArtist!]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Oddly, one thing for which Jon can fairly be criticised harshly (the baby swap) rarely comes up.

I don't see what alternative Jon had here. If he didn't do anything, there's a very good chance that Melisandre would have considered burning the baby, just like she would have considered burning Aemon. Sending the baby away wasn't a 100% fool-proof way to stop any burning from happening, but it sure as hell was better than doing nothing. Jon was not willing to take the risk of not doing anything and leaving them there at Melisandre and Stannis's non-existent mercy.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I don't see what alternative Jon had here. If he didn't do anything, there's a very good chance that Melisandre would have considered burning the baby, just like she would have considered burning Aemon. Sending the baby away wasn't a 100% fool-proof way to stop any burning from happening, but it sure as hell was better than doing nothing. Jon was not willing to take the risk of not doing anything and leaving them there at Melisandre and Stannis's non-existent mercy.

It affected Gilly very badly, who will likely never see the child again, and is a case of Jon playing God;  if Melisandre sacrifices a child, then it will be Gilly’s, not Mance’s.  

There’s no reason why Melisandre should believe the baby swap, and even if she did, it’s not like she only restricts herself to sacrificing people with king’s blood. In fact, if they need a sacrifice, a child which is revealed as an “abomination”, would be a prime candidate for the flames.  And Jon forced Gilly to agree by threatening to kill the child.

Edit:  Actually Val (who knows of the swap and suspects that Melisandre does) thinks Monster is in danger from R’hllor’s followers.  I would not be surprised if the child were killed in order to resurrect Jon, a nasty irony.

[Quoth the raven,]

Arya Stark was not justified in killing Dareon and the Insurance Underwriter.  It's not complicated.  Arya acted out of a desire to get revenge for her family.  Indirect vengeance. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:05 AM, EggBlue said:

Dareon ? not at all. the fact that he was a deserter doesn't justify his execution by Arya Stark. only Wardan of the North is legally able to condemn the deserter to death. that's why when they capture the deserter at the beginning of the story , just anyone doesn't kill him. Ned does. .... this was by far the worst thing Arya ever did. though I still wouldn't call her "mad" or "crazy" or "unstable" as some have strongly believe in other threads.. she is a lost child both geographically and emotionally. who was there to teach her morality? faceless men? experiences at Harrenhal? the Hound?

Not just the Warden of the North. We know that deserters anywhere in the 7K are subject to the death penalty. Lord Ryswell condemned his own son to death and Chett says : "And at home they'll know you for deserters and lop off your fool heads, thought Chett. There was no leaving the Night's Watch, once you said your words. Anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, they'd take you and kill you." Should Arya have been the one to perform the execution? No but killing a man marked for death is one of the least objectionable things she does in Braavos.

On 11/19/2021 at 8:05 AM, EggBlue said:

Insurance guy? while it is not acceptable , it is in a way justifiable.. she didn't have much of a choice in the matter. she was manipulated into doing it and she couldn't see any other option in a foreign land where her weird orphanage would have thrown her out if she didn't kill this "bad man" .

The House of B&W offered to place her in a home or send her home if she didn't want to complete her training. Insurance guy is completely immoral / unacceptable because she's killing someone for money (a gift to the FM).

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:32 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was not morally nor legally justified.  But then Arya is mad.  Too much grief broke her mind. 

Arya could murder half of Westeros and Jon would still love and protect her.  Those two were destined for each other.  I don't like them. 

Arya will try to murder Bowen Marsh and the men who helped him. Arya isn’t really smart but she should know better.  Jon was a traitor to the watch.

 

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Arya will murder try to Bowen Marsh and the men who helped him. Arya isn’t really smart but she should know better.  Jon was a traitor to the watch.

 

The point of the thread is not about that. The point of the thread is "was Arya justified in killing Dareon and the Insurance Man?" and "How do you think Jon will or would react to Arya killing Dareon and how will that affect their relationship?"

[Moiraine Sedai]

6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The point of the thread is not about that. The point of the thread is "was Arya justified in killing Dareon and the Insurance Man?" and "How do you think Jon will or would react to Arya killing Dareon and how will that affect their relationship?"

Those killings were not justified. Jon is past caring because he is either a wight or gone for good. But hypothetically, how would a living, breathing Jon react to Arya’s sins?  He won’t. He will be happy to have her back. Her state of mind, mental damage, atrocities, whatever, won’t matter to Jon. He will forgive anything she has done. Likewise, Arya will forgive an oathbreaker and a traitor if that person is Jon.