What did Aegon the Conqueror had that Daenerys won't have ?

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Can't gave away her plans to her enemy. She has no brain.

Obviously she has a brain.

Yes, she was foolishly lenient towards the slavers, but I think she’s been cured of that error.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Obviously she has a brain.

Yes, she was foolishly lenient towards the slavers, but I think she’s been cured of that error.

She told her plans to Green Grace. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh, she has no brains? How about conquering Slaver's Bay? Sure, she's not good at ruling, but you can't say she has zero brains. I'd say she does pretty good for someone her age, with her experiences.  

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Or is this your typical hate of Dany? 

She told everything to Green Grace. She had no reason to trust her. Cleon the Butcher is her result as well, former slaves selling themselves back to slavery is also a result of her actions. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

17 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

She told everything to Green Grace. She had no reason to trust her. Cleon the Butcher is her result as well, former slaves selling themselves back to slavery is also a result of her actions. 

A line of bad decisions doesn't make someone the brainless fool you make Dany out to be. The one who, apparently, shouldn't have killed MMD for killing her son. The one who you said should've been killed, instead of Viserys. 

[EggBlue]

13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

A line of bad decisions doesn't make someone the brainless fool you make Dany out to be.

first, sorry for jumping in ! ... it doesn't . and though Dany is clearly not an idiot , she is not particularly smart either. 

ps. which is an unfortunate! I personally started the series confident that I'll cheer for her!!!

13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The one who, apparently, shouldn't have killed MMD for killing her son.

to be honest @Lilac & Gooseberries had a point there. I don't say Dany shouldn't have killed her (it was justifiable in her mind .. not different from Arya's justifications and they live in a cruel world)  but it was vengeance rather than justice and I think it wasn't hard to feel for Miri...

13 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The one who you said should've been killed, instead of Viserys. 

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

22 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

A line of bad decisions doesn't make someone the brainless fool you make Dany out to be. The one who, apparently, shouldn't have killed MMD for killing her son. The one who you said should've been killed, instead of Viserys. 

No, you are right. Constantly making the wrong decisions and destroying people's lives to the point that they are selling themselves back to slavery is proof of someone's intelligence and competence 

[Jaenara Belarys]

15 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

No, you are right. Constantly making the wrong decisions and destroying people's lives to the point that they are selling themselves back to slavery is proof of someone's intelligence and competence 

And your precious Lord Snow is any better? Right, let's let all the wildlings through the Wall, the whole lot of them. Even the rapers and murderers, right? Don't want them to be in the AotD (Gods, I'm starting to sound like the lot on the AMI thread), do we? We'll march south with the wildlings to be butchered (I can understand his thinking in terms of Jon loves Arya, but you'd be taking strength away from the Wall when it's pretty direly needed). Oh, yes, and alienate all the other commanders, because why not? 

 

Furthermore, Aegon was a grown man, who as you say had two loyal sisters (or somebody, don't remember) who'd do quite a lot for him. He'd probably already had years of experience of ruling and probably watched his dad ruling. 

Now look at Dany. Barristan is the most loyal, but he's a soldier and knight, not a detective, not a ruler. She's in a bad position, and knows that she can't leave, since everything to get there would be pointless. Her advisors, are soldiers and flatters and one person who wants to butcher everyone else. No experience with ruling since she grew up a beggar on the streets thanks to the Baratheons and the precious, perfect Starks, I  highly doubt you or I or EggBlue or a lot of people on this forum would do much better in her place.  

[Groo]

6 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I  highly doubt you or I or EggBlue or a lot of people on this forum would do much better in her place.  

I think a distinction has to be made between the youthful characters, like Daenerys and Jon, and the full-grown adults. The youthful characters are inexperienced and might do a lot of growing and improving. I'm not ready to render a final judgment on them yet. Balon, Cersei, Ned, Tywin, Doran, etc., on the other hand, are all grown-ass adults with relevant experience. We can definitely render judgement on their leadership, plans, and choices. Daenerys has made plenty of mistakes. Part of what makes the story good is that her mistakes are understandable. They're the kind of mistakes an idealistic but inexperienced person might make, especially one without many good advisors or examples to follow, as you've pointed out.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

She told everything to Green Grace. She had no reason to trust her. Cleon the Butcher is her result as well, former slaves selling themselves back to slavery is also a result of her actions. 

No slaves are selling themselves back into slavery.  That was a show only thing.  In ASOS, some "gently born" Meereenese who had lost their property (ie their slaves) wished to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, because they saw no future for themselves in Meereen.  

The freedmen are very much pleased not to be slaves.  They now have the chance to be soldiers, members of guilds, business people, as well as being represented in the Queen's council. As well as having their marriages recognised, petitioning the Queen with their grievances,  not being subject to sadistic punishments, nor fed to lions for the amusement of their masters, and so forth.

Those are all improvments, in my opinion.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Groo said:

I think a distinction has to be made between the youthful characters, like Daenerys and Jon, and the full-grown adults. The youthful characters are inexperienced and might do a lot of growing and improving. I'm not ready to render a final judgment on them yet. Balon, Cersei, Ned, Tywin, Doran, etc., on the other hand, are all grown-ass adults with relevant experience. We can definitely render judgement on their leadership, plans, and choices. Daenerys has made plenty of mistakes. Part of what makes the story good is that her mistakes are understandable. They're the kind of mistakes an idealistic but inexperienced person might make, especially one without many good advisors or examples to follow, as you've pointed out.

There is no leader who does not take bad decisions in this tale.  Compared to Robert, Ned, Doran, Balon, Robb, Jon, Cersei, Tywin, Stannis, Renly, I don't think Daenerys stands out as worse.  And, all leaders find themselves in situations where the only choices available to them are bad ones.

[Raven Princling]

1. Mature dragons.

2. Dragonriders he could trust (his sisters).

3. Allies that are not exiles or people obsessed with vengeance.

4. His army did not pillage and rape everything they saw. Assuming Dany takes control of the Dothraki, this is what they will do in Westeros, making the smallfolk hate her even more.

5. He was male.

6. More improtantly than point 5, he was fertile. Even if Dany wins the Iron Throne, Westeros would fall into chaos again after her death. She will not be able to produce an heir thanks to MMD.

7. Dany is naive and sometimes less than smart. Her rule in Mereen, her stance on Astapor (letting it fall into chaos and get conquered by Yunkai) has proven that. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

9 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

And your precious Lord Snow is any better? Right, let's let all the wildlings through the Wall, the whole lot of them. Even the rapers and murderers, right? Don't want them to be in the AotD (Gods, I'm starting to sound like the lot on the AMI thread), do we? We'll march south with the wildlings to be butchered (I can understand his thinking in terms of Jon loves Arya, but you'd be taking strength away from the Wall when it's pretty direly needed). Oh, yes, and alienate all the other commanders, because why not? 

What does Jon have to do with anything? He, the very least, didn't told all of this plans to the Boltons 

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

No slaves are selling themselves back into slavery.  That was a show only thing.  In ASOS, some "gently born" Meereenese who had lost their property (ie their slaves) wished to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, because they saw no future for themselves in Meereen.

Maybe I confused the free men with the former slaves but is the equally bad. Someone who knows how terrible the life of a slave is choose to sell themselves to slavery to escape Dany's rule. Cleos the butcher's rule proved that chaos is not the best way to do things and what Dany did in Slavers Bay is to create havoc without having a plan. That is not what a smart person would do. Someone with decent intelligence would had recognized that actions bring reactions and that they need a plan.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

What does Jon have to do with anything? He, the very least, didn't told all of this plans to the Boltons 

 

Maybe I confused the free men with the former slaves but is the equally bad. Someone who knows how terrible the life of a slave is choose to sell themselves to slavery to escape Dany's rule. Cleos the butcher's rule proved that chaos is not the best way to do things and what Dany did in Slavers Bay is to create havoc without having a plan. That is not what a smart person would do. Someone with decent intelligence would had recognized that actions bring reactions and that they need a plan.

People who have actually experienced slavery, on the other hand, have no desire to return to it.  They are the people who know how terrible the life of a slave is, rather than the masters who think of it as a good thing.  People who have spent their  lives living off slave labour could actually choose to remain in Meereen (as the shavepates do, for example).  But that would mean actually having to work for a living, and competing on equal terms  with the ex-slaves. My sympathy for the "gently born" Meereenese is very limited.

Servile wars and uprisings have never been gentle, moderate affairs in real life, in which all the participants have a rational plan for ending slavery and reforming the economy without loss to anybody. They are violent and chaotic, and a great deal of necessary change involves violence and chaos.  It would be dishonest for the author to show Daenerys effortlessly succeeding in bringing about peaceful change. 

I admit that when it comes to Slavers Bay, my sympathies lie far more with the slaves and freedmen than with the freeborn. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

People who have actually experienced slavery, on the other hand, have no desire to return to it.  They are the people who know how terrible the life of a slave is, rather than the masters who think of it as a good thing.  People who have spent their  lives living off slave labour could actually choose to remain in Meereen (as the shavepates do, for example).  But that would mean actually having to work for a living, and competing on equal terms  with the ex-slaves. My sympathy for the "gently born" Meereenese is very limited.

Servile wars and uprisings have never been gentle, moderate affairs in real life, in which all the participants have a rational plan for ending slavery and reforming the economy without loss to anybody. They are violent and chaotic, and a great deal of necessary change involves violence and chaos.  It would be dishonest for the author to show Daenerys effortlessly succeeding in bringing about peaceful change. 

I admit that when it comes to Slavers Bay, my sympathies lie far more with the slaves and freedmen than with the freeborn. 

Famine and plagues are the results of non gentle chaotic situations like what Dany created in SB. And all men had I suffer about it.

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Famine and plagues are the results of non gentle chaotic situations like what Dany created in SB. And all men had I suffer about it.

Famine, sickness, rape, castration, torture, murder, kidnap, were the norm for most of the inhabitants of Slavers Bay for decades prior to Daenerys' arrival, for that is what chattel slavery entails, for all but a privileged elite. Especially the kind of slavery practised by the masters described in this series. 

You're implying that the slavers were doing no harm, until Daenerys came along, and you're blaming her for the savageries which they, their soldiers, and the Sons of the Harpy, inflicted on the freedmen in the region, and for driving plague victims to Meereen.  That's the classic argument that's made by any bully "look what you made me do", after he's given you a beating. The moral responsibility for the actions of the slavers rests 100% with the slavers.

And, it's absolutely the argument that every slave master makes in the face of a slave revolt.  They blame the slaves for disrupting their peaceful lives of luxury, rather than blaming themselves for keeping people as chattels. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Famine, sickness, rape, castration, torture, murder, kidnap, were the norm for most of the inhabitants of Slavers Bay for decades prior to Daenerys' arrival, for that is what chattel slavery entails, for all but a privileged elite. Especially the kind of slavery practised by the masters described in this series. 

You're implying that the slavers were doing no harm, until Daenerys came along, and you're blaming her for the savageries which they, their soldiers, and the Sons of the Harpy, inflicted on the freedmen in the region, and for driving plague victims to Meereen.  That's the classic argument that's made by any bully "look what you made me do", after he's given you a beating. The moral responsibility for the actions of the slavers rests 100% with the slavers.

And, it's absolutely the argument that every slave master makes in the face of a slave revolt.  They blame the slaves for disrupting their peaceful lives of luxury, rather than blaming themselves for keeping people as chattels. 

Please point where exactly I said that slavers did no harm. Exactly where I said it.

[Oana_Mika]

11 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Famine and plagues are the results of non gentle chaotic situations like what Dany created in SB. And all men had I suffer about it.

Famine and plagues are the rseult of the SLAVERS BURNING ALL THE CROPS THEY HAD AND DRIVING THE SICKNESS FROM ASTAPOR TO MEEREEN.Funny how the famine and sickness the wildlings have at Mole's Town flys over your head.Does Jon is to blame for that like Daenerys?And Dany telling the Green Grace that she is not willing to kill the children is not the same as telling everything sweetheart.Ned also spell some beans but he is not dumb for that,is he?

[Oana_Mika]

9 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Please point where exactly I said that slavers did no harm. Exactly where I said it.

You IMPLIED,not told

 

imply

/ɪmˈplʌɪ/

verb

verb: imply; 3rd person present: implies; past tense: implied; past participle: implied; gerund or present participle: implying

1. indicate the truth or existence of (something) by suggestion rather than explicit reference.

   "salesmen who use jargon to imply superior knowledge"

You basically said that all the sickness and famine is Dany's fault.

 

10 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Famine and plagues are the results of non gentle chaotic situations like what Dany created in SB. And all men had I suffer about it.

 

[Oana_Mika]

21 hours ago, EggBlue said:

to be honest @Lilac & Gooseberries had a point there. I don't say Dany shouldn't have killed her (it was justifiable in her mind .. not different from Arya's justifications and they live in a cruel world)  but it was vengeance rather than justice and I think it wasn't hard to feel for Miri...

From the ASoIaF app Mirri definitely killed Rhaego (x)(x) and Daenerys does not kill her for vengeance

A word, and Dany could have her head off … yet then what would she have? A head? If life was worthless, what was death?
          "A Game of Thrones" - Daenerys IX

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Famine and plagues are the rseult of the SLAVERS BURNING ALL THE CROPS THEY HAD AND DRIVING THE SICKNESS FROM ASTAPOR TO MEEREEN.Funny how the famine and sickness the wildlings have at Mole's Town flys over your head.Does Jon is to blame for that like Daenerys?And Dany telling the Green Grace that she is not willing to kill the children is not the same as telling everything sweetheart.Ned also spell some beans but he is not dumb for that,is he?

Jon has nothing to do with this subject. I am talking about Dany and not Jon.

Please keep your condescending way of speaking to yourself and not to me.

And yes Ned was stupid, much like Dany.