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If Daenerys had married Quentyn and won Dorne's support what would Aegon do?


Odej
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Most readers, myself included, assume that since Daenerys rejected marriage to Quentyn and the boy was eventually killed by one of her dragons, Dorne will support Aegon in his campaign for the throne. But if Daenerys had agreed to marry Quentyn and won the support of Dorne what would Aegon/JonCon/Varys do?

The Martells are the obvious choice of allies for Aegon because of family ties, the news of Daenerys and Quentyn's engagement or marriage could take a while to reach him (Dorne still doesn't know about Quentyn's death) and Aegon could try to gain Dorne support with a proposal for Arianne. The princess is very interested in the idea of becoming queen and thinks with contempt of the idea of Quentyn being king. Could Aegon divide the family?

If not which way would Aegon turn? The Tyrells and a marriage to Margaery?

Edited by Odej
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Interesting to think about. It looks like Arienne is heading toward the prospect of wooing Aegon in TWOW, and she's still running on the assumption that Quentyn is alive and will marry Daenerys. So maybe things wouldn't change much if the Quent/Dany marriage did happen?

One difference will be the eventual news of Quent's death reaching Westeros vs the eventual news of Quent's marriage reaching Westeros. Does such knowledge change things? Perhaps (for instance, how hesitant vs committed Doran Martell is in supporting Aegon) but I think there will be conflict either way.

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It is interesting to think about.

I don't know what to think about Arianne. GRRM is setting her up as a major character in  her own right but her personality is not very well defined. I hope GRRM is not making her into a younger version of Cersei. I think it's kind of lazy.

However, she's clearly not a kind, loving person else she would have some very different thoughts in regards to Quentyn. She has a jealous heart as evidenced by her queenmaker plot, her feelings towards Dany and Quentyn. She also tends to lie to herself about her true nature (scheming and jealous and ignorant) and goes to great lengths to find justification for her behavior. Like the queenmaker plot had nothing to do with Myrcella or the Lannisters it was about ousting her father and making herself the ruler of Dorne.

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53 minutes ago, Odej said:

 But if Daenerys had agreed to marry Quentyn and won the support of Dorne what would Aegon/JonCon/Varys do?

Aegon NEEDS Dorne's support either way... Doran Martell's approval is the proof Aegon needs to present himself as Elia and Rhaegar's son. so marriage proposal to any other lady would be out of the question.

 

I imagine the first thing Aegon's side would consider is a marriage proposal to Daenerys as was originally planned with the argument that Aegon the conqueror too had two spouses and three dragons.. something that Daenerys herself had thought about in aDwD.  I suppose his condition for such marriage to Dany would've been that HE sits the throne (either alongside Dany as her first king or alone as he is higher in the line of succession ) or that his children inherit the throne ... but the problems with this would be Dorne's probable refusal and the issues they could have with the faith.

 

the more likely option Aegon could try is marrying Arianne who seems willing as it is , I doubt Arianne would have much difficulty in backing Aegon and splitting Dorne. She has already tried that and in her mind this will be totally justifiable given Aegon is the last heir's son while Dany is his sister who wasn't even born when Targaryens sat the throne and has had her brother killed! this would definitely cause numerous problems . first of all , Arianne and Quentyn each have their own allies in Dorne, therefore, the country would be divided. Yornwoods would back Quentyn while Hellholt supports Arianne . yet , the main dornish forces would technically be under Doran's command. now Doran has already given the command to Arianne in WoW sample chapter  so they will support Arianne till Dragons arrive and some might turn cloaks  .

 

in any situation what would be extremely interesting is Doran's view and what he might push for. he had already given the command to his heir and taking it just back wouldn't be good for his picture. on the other hand , the other side has DRAGONs. my guess is he will try his best in making some sort of alliance between the two. so , I assume even something as uncontroversial as what I suggested at first wouldn't be so far fetched, if Arianne doesn't marry Aegon before Doran can do something. if that happens though and after failing to convince Dany of his nephew's claim he might suggest one of these things: 1) some future marriage between their children in return of him making Aegon throw his claim aside .2) suggesting that Dany names Aegon her heir especially in the case he realizes she can't have kids.

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Dorne is not a big loss.  Daenerys dodged a problem because the Martells are trouble.  Anything the Martells do will end in failure.  Let them drag Aegon into their doomed schemes.  

An alliance with Dorne will likely result in losing any chance of support from the Tyrells.  The Tyrells have more to offer.  

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46 minutes ago, Rondo said:

An alliance with Dorne will likely result in losing any chance of support from the Tyrells.  The Tyrells have more to offer.  

Indeed. All Dany would have to do is marry Willas and make him or Mace her Hand, and she'd have won the support of the Tyrells and probably all of the Reach. That alone would basically win her the war.

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1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Indeed. All Dany would have to do is marry Willas and make him or Mace her Hand, and she'd have won the support of the Tyrells and probably all of the Reach. That alone would basically win her the war.

That's an intriguing thought. What happens to Margaery and Tommen in this scenario though?

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10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's an intriguing thought. What happens to Margaery and Tommen in this scenario though?

I think whatever Cersei's going to do in Winds will be pretty bad for a lot of people in King's Landing, including Margaery and Tommen. I don't see those two emerging from that book in good shape.

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It is interesting to think about.

I don't know what to think about Arianne. GRRM is setting her up as a major character in  her own right but her personality is not very well defined. I hope GRRM is not making her into a younger version of Cersei. I think it's kind of lazy.

However, she's clearly not a kind, loving person else she would have some very different thoughts in regards to Quentyn. She has a jealous heart as evidenced by her queenmaker plot, her feelings towards Dany and Quentyn. She also tends to lie to herself about her true nature (scheming and jealous and ignorant) and goes to great lengths to find justification for her behavior. Like the queenmaker plot had nothing to do with Myrcella or the Lannisters it was about ousting her father and making herself the ruler of Dorne.

I think Arianne is in over her head, without realising it.  I expect “She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man, and so shall I”, foreshadows her ultimate fate.

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6 hours ago, Rondo said:

Dorne is not a big loss.  Daenerys dodged a problem because the Martells are trouble.  Anything the Martells do will end in failure.  Let them drag Aegon into their doomed schemes.  

An alliance with Dorne will likely result in losing any chance of support from the Tyrells.  The Tyrells have more to offer.  

Yeah, I know the Tyrells are much better allies and Dorne will support Aegon 'cause Quentyn's death and Daenerys rejected him, but the point of the post is to speculate how things would have turned out if Daenerys had accepted Quentyn as her husband in Meereen while in Westeros Aegon proposes to Arianne.

And as I don't believe Aegon and Dany would share power, the second dance would still happens.

Edited by Odej
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12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It is interesting to think about.

I don't know what to think about Arianne. GRRM is setting her up as a major character in  her own right but her personality is not very well defined. I hope GRRM is not making her into a younger version of Cersei. I think it's kind of lazy.

However, she's clearly not a kind, loving person else she would have some very different thoughts in regards to Quentyn. She has a jealous heart as evidenced by her queenmaker plot, her feelings towards Dany and Quentyn. She also tends to lie to herself about her true nature (scheming and jealous and ignorant) and goes to great lengths to find justification for her behavior. Like the queenmaker plot had nothing to do with Myrcella or the Lannisters it was about ousting her father and making herself the ruler of Dorne.

I think Arianne feelings about it would be very interesting.

She had spent years harboring feelings of rivalry with Quentyn over Doran's letter. The two have not grown up together which has not developed strong affection between them and Quentyn is the opposite of Arianne.

Finding out the truth about Doran's letter eased the rancor, but it took too many years of feeling it to disappear completely so quickly.

Quentyn generates mixed feelings in Arianne. She at the same time expects Daenerys to treat him better than she treated Viserys, but still a sense of superiority and disdain for her brother makes Arianne find the idea of Quentyn being king ridiculous. Arianne was fascinated by the idea of being Viserys' queen and now she would have the chance to be Aegon's queen.

As king besides Daenerys Arianne could feel that at the end Quentyn surpassed her and she is not ok about it.

Edited by Odej
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15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Aegon NEEDS Dorne's support either way... Doran Martell's approval is the proof Aegon needs to present himself as Elia and Rhaegar's son. so marriage proposal to any other lady would be out of the question.

This is a good point I think people are likely to forget.

Daenerys doesn't NEED Dorne. In fact, she hasn't needed the support of any great house since the conclusion of A Storm of Swords.

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I imagine the first thing Aegon's side would consider is a marriage proposal to Daenerys as was originally planned with the argument that Aegon the conqueror too had two spouses and three dragons.. something that Daenerys herself had thought about in aDwD.  I suppose his condition for such marriage to Dany would've been that HE sits the throne (either alongside Dany as her first king or alone as he is higher in the line of succession ) or that his children inherit the throne ... but the problems with this would be Dorne's probable refusal and the issues they could have with the faith.

 

I don't think a polygamous marriage that favors and revolves around Aegon is something Daenerys would be comfortable with.

Why? Because makes Daenerys (who is the last child of the last Targaryen king) the equal of another non-Targaryen, dragonless woman who grew up in the lap of the highest luxuries.

I think she would have more problem with that having to share the queenship and spotlight with a woman who contributed absolutely nothing to the restoration of House Targaryen than she would have submitting to her husband and renouncing her claim in favor of his.

You can make the claim that Aegon has lived a less-than-privileged life and has also been preparing his whole life to be king.

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think Arianne is in over her head, without realising it.  I expect “She (Nymeria) burned as bright as any man, and so shall I”, foreshadows her ultimate fate.

I think that right there is the ongoing theme and character arc for Arianne.

The importance of 1) having accurate information, 2) having the ability to absorb the information in its entirety and 3) being able to take the right course of action based on the said information

In other words, Arianne's arc seems to be about fake news. Because so far, all of the information she works off of is either outdated, incomplete, lacking context or flat-out false....or it's coming from unreliable sources.

4 hours ago, Odej said:

I think Arianne feelings about it would be very interesting.

She had spent years harboring feelings of rivalry with Quentyn over Doran's letter. The two have not grown up together which has not developed strong affection between them and Quentyn is the opposite of Arianne.

Finding out the truth about Doran's letter eased the rancor, but it took too many years of feeling it to disappear completely so quickly.

Quentyn generates mixed feelings in Arianne. She at the same time expects Daenerys to treat him better than she treated Viserys, but still a sense of superiority and disdain for her brother makes Arianne find the idea of Quentyn being king ridiculous. Arianne was fascinated by the idea of being Viserys' queen and now she would have the chance to be Aegon's queen.

As king besides Daenerys Arianne could feel that at the end Quentyn surpassed her and she is not ok about it.

Like, she hasn't spent any quality time around Quentyn. Yet, she draws all these really weird conclusions about him (his prayer life, what kind of king he would be, what kind of girls he is into, how jealous he is of her) based on what?

When was the last time she actually spoke with him?!

Also, Arianne does this really weird thing where she assumes Daenerys is exactly like her (rivalry with brothers, desire to rule) but that scares her so she also starts looking for an excuse to write Daenerys off as a monster for allowing her brother to die (which is the natural ending of her one-sided rivalry with Quentyn). But then she doesn't want to come off as being judgmental or foolish so she disguises her attempts to write Dany (and Quentyn) off as a legitimate concern for Dany's mental health and Quentyn's preparedness.

Spiral thinking, ladies and gentlemen.

4 hours ago, Odej said:

Arianne could feel that at the end Quentyn surpassed her and she is not ok about it.

Which goes back to the core of the situation.

Arianne never really wanted to be Princess of Dorne. If she did, she would be relieved. She will rule in her own right and her children will inherit her power, prestige and name. As Aegon's queen, she would wield soft power and her function would be ornamental at best.

So, her desires are much bigger and deeper than that.

She already has her father's love and approval. She always had it and it's just been affirmed in both a very public and private way.

What more does she want? To prove that she is better than her brother? There's no need to do that; her brother is neither dangerously sexy nor popular nor particularly strong. She, however, is. No one is pitting them against each other.

I'm not getting it.

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11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

I don't think a polygamous marriage that favors and revolves around Aegon is something Daenerys would be comfortable with.

 

Why? Because makes Daenerys (who is the last child of the last Targaryen king) the equal of another non-Targaryen, dragonless woman who grew up in the lap of the highest luxuries.

I think she would have more problem with that having to share the queenship and spotlight with a woman who contributed absolutely nothing to the restoration of House Targaryen than she would have submitting to her husband and renouncing her claim in favor of his.

you missed my point there. the question was "what if Dany is already married/betrothed to Quentyn?" . well, Aegon/JonCon's plan was to marry Daenerys to get her dragons and support. what would they do if she is already married? I suppose after trying their best to convince Dany to bend the knee ,one thing that might come to their mind ( but wouldn't be a desirable option) is to marry Aegon to Dany anyway . Dany is said to be the female version of Aegon I ; therefore, Aegon VI's council might favor a polygamous marriage to an already married dragonlord Dany considering she accepts Aegon's children as heirs over Quentyn's(however they want to figure such thing out!!!) or to share rule or something like that , rather than going to war against such a powerful rival who would also taint Aegon's claim by not supporting him. 

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not getting it.

I liked your whole analysis on Arianne's arc. as for her feelings and desires, I believe , she is still fighting Quentyn for her father's affections and approval without being completely aware of it. she is indeed far more popular than him and she is clearly the one their father loves more. but SHE is not the one who sees it that way. she's had this jealousy and resentment towards her brother for so long that even after Doran's confession she still can't shake the need to be ahead of Quentyn in everything. if he was going to be prince of Dorne , she wanted that , if he is going to make a dynasty , she wants that...  

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50 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is a good point I think people are likely to forget.

Daenerys doesn't NEED Dorne. In fact, she hasn't needed the support of any great house since the conclusion of A Storm of Swords.

I don't think a polygamous marriage that favors and revolves around Aegon is something Daenerys would be comfortable with.

Why? Because makes Daenerys (who is the last child of the last Targaryen king) the equal of another non-Targaryen, dragonless woman who grew up in the lap of the highest luxuries.

I think she would have more problem with that having to share the queenship and spotlight with a woman who contributed absolutely nothing to the restoration of House Targaryen than she would have submitting to her husband and renouncing her claim in favor of his.

You can make the claim that Aegon has lived a less-than-privileged life and has also been preparing his whole life to be king.

I think that right there is the ongoing theme and character arc for Arianne.

The importance of 1) having accurate information, 2) having the ability to absorb the information in its entirety and 3) being able to take the right course of action based on the said information

In other words, Arianne's arc seems to be about fake news. Because so far, all of the information she works off of is either outdated, incomplete, lacking context or flat-out false....or it's coming from unreliable sources.

Like, she hasn't spent any quality time around Quentyn. Yet, she draws all these really weird conclusions about him (his prayer life, what kind of king he would be, what kind of girls he is into, how jealous he is of her) based on what?

When was the last time she actually spoke with him?!

Also, Arianne does this really weird thing where she assumes Daenerys is exactly like her (rivalry with brothers, desire to rule) but that scares her so she also starts looking for an excuse to write Daenerys off as a monster for allowing her brother to die (which is the natural ending of her one-sided rivalry with Quentyn). But then she doesn't want to come off as being judgmental or foolish so she disguises her attempts to write Dany (and Quentyn) off as a legitimate concern for Dany's mental health and Quentyn's preparedness.

Spiral thinking, ladies and gentlemen.

Which goes back to the core of the situation.

Arianne never really wanted to be Princess of Dorne. If she did, she would be relieved. She will rule in her own right and her children will inherit her power, prestige and name. As Aegon's queen, she would wield soft power and her function would be ornamental at best.

So, her desires are much bigger and deeper than that.

She already has her father's love and approval. She always had it and it's just been affirmed in both a very public and private way.

What more does she want? To prove that she is better than her brother? There's no need to do that; her brother is neither dangerously sexy nor popular nor particularly strong. She, however, is. No one is pitting them against each other.

I'm not getting it.

I think she wants to be co-ruler of Westeros.  She'll be bringing an army to the party, which means she can negotiate for a lot more than being a consort.

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It wouldn't change much to what is most likely going to happen in the canon: he would marry Arianne and fight Daenerys for the Iron Throne. But in this alternate version, Dorne will be split between Arianne's supporters and Quentyn's supporters rather than united against her when they will know about Quentyn's death.

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9 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think whatever Cersei's going to do in Winds will be pretty bad for a lot of people in King's Landing, including Margaery and Tommen. I don't see those two emerging from that book in good shape.

Yeah, Tommen and Margaery would have to be off the board by either Cersei or (f)Aegon's doing. Because if Dany had any part in their deaths, I can't imagine Mace going along with Dany.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

This is a good point I think people are likely to forget.

Daenerys doesn't NEED Dorne. In fact, she hasn't needed the support of any great house since the conclusion of A Storm of Swords.

I don't think Daenerys didn't need the support of any other great house since the conclusion of ASOS. At the time she had 8000 imaculates, three mercenary companies and three young dragons. This wouldn't be enough to win a war against the Iron Throne. She couldn't defeat the Lannisters, Tyrells, a part of Stormlands and the Vale alone if she had decided go to Westeros then. At the time Quentyn arrived Daenerys was in the middle of a delicate political situation in Meereen. Some of her imaculates were killed, she can't control her dragons, the city she rules hates her, there is a disease spreading and one of the mercenary companies she had betrayed her and joyned along the free citys against her.

But when she do arrive in Westeros I believe that just like on the tv show she will have her imaculates, the Dothrakis and maybe Victarion's support. She will ride Drogon, Victarion maybe could control another dragon and about the third one I don't know, but her power will be terrifing which will offset for the lack of support that I believe she will receive from Westeros. But even having the military streng to conquest Westeros, don't have the people's and nobles' support will affect Daenerys emotionally because she wants to be loved. I believe this is what she wants more than anything.

And again guys, I talking about a HYPOTETICAL situation in this post, I know Quentyn is dead and I know Daenerys and Dorne won't get along.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I believe , she is still fighting Quentyn for her father's affections and approval without being completely aware of it. she is indeed far more popular than him and she is clearly the one their father loves more. but SHE is not the one who sees it that way. she's had this jealousy and resentment towards her brother for so long that even after Doran's confession she still can't shake the need to be ahead of Quentyn in everything. if he was going to be prince of Dorne , she wanted that , if he is going to make a dynasty , she wants that...  

Thank you. That's my point.

Although the whole issue of Doran's letter has been cleared up, Arianne continues to have a kind of one-sided rivalry with Quentyn.

Edited by Odej
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Honestly, in the case that Daenerys marries Quentyn and comes back to Westeros with him, Aegon's best choice is to marry a girl from another great house. There's no need for a double Targaryen-Martell marriage alliance when you have the chance to do a Targaryen-Martell, Targaryen-Tyrell (or even Targaryen-Baratheon) alliance.

But in the case, of a miscommunicated situation where Dany doesn't know about Aegon and where Aegon doesn't know about Quentyn and they each marry siblings and make separate claims....

Either Daenerys would have to settle with being only the Princess of Dragonstone (she couldn't even be the Princess Consort of Dorne because Arianne will likely claim both titles) and ruling the islands of the Blackwater...or it would mean civil war.

Same script, different cast.

1 minute ago, Odej said:

At the time she had 8000 imaculates, three mercenary companies and three young dragons. This wouldn't be enough to win a war against the Iron Throne.

  1. First of all, let's not downplay the mercenary companies. No one in Westeros is really able to buy them away from Dany except for maybe the Lannisters and the Tyrells. The Tyrells seem to be rich in food instead of gold and the Lannisters would only be able to buy them off if they would tap into their own funds...and that's not nothing. Sellswords aren't going to be wooed by an "I owe you" promissory note and the Iron Throne is broke. And Cersei is not competent or subtle (or even humble) enough to pull off such a transaction right underneath everyone's noses.
  2. Dany technically had 10,000 immaculates. 8,000 who are fully-trained and 2,000 who are still training and bound to graduate.
  3. Dany only had 2 mercenary companies not 3. The Mother's Men, the Shavepates, the Free Brothers and the Stalwart Shields are not mercenaries. They are armies of freedmen and native people from Meereen who are loyal to her and only her.
  4. At this present time and by the end of A Storm of Swords, Aegon had only one mercenary company, -1 immaculates and zero dragons. AKA much less than what Dany had. Yet Aegon and his council still mount an invasion and believe that Westeros is ripe for the taking. They all believe that he has a good chance.

Daenerys doesn't need Dorne or any of the other kingdoms like Aegon needs them.

Outside of that, I agree with you.

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think she wants to be co-ruler of Westeros.  She'll be bringing an army to the party, which means she can negotiate for a lot more than being a consort.

True.

But I'm not sure that that's what going to happen. JonCon seems to be averse to both women and anything Dornish.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I suppose after trying their best to convince Dany to bend the knee ,one thing that might come to their mind ( but wouldn't be a desirable option) is to marry Aegon to Dany anyway . Dany is said to be the female version of Aegon I ; therefore, Aegon VI's council might favor a polygamous marriage to an already married dragonlord Dany considering she accepts Aegon's children as heirs over Quentyn's(however they want to figure such thing out!!!) or to share rule or something like that , rather than going to war against such a powerful rival who would also taint Aegon's claim by not supporting him. 

I'm not even sure how they would even go about establishing the paternity of Daenerys' children so as to decide who inherits.

That sounds like an invitation for a catastrophic civil war within two generations.

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