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Worst military strategist


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In all of ASOIAF main series books whose character would be the absolute worst strategist of all, with him being so dumb or delusionnal or both when it comes to war strategy and even tactics ?

Historically, if we take in account the WOIAF and Fire and Blood, who would be the worst strategist of all time ?

Historically I think that the greatest candidate would be Morion Martell, who planned to invade the Stormlands via the sea as revenge for the defeat and death of the Vulture King, with him and his fleet ending destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons' dragons in the only conflict in ASOIAF history where one side was annihilated while the other suffered no casualty at all.

Not only he was going to war for a stupid reason while his father had wisely avoided to intervene and risk war with the Iron Throne, but he moronly discarded every asset and advantage he and Dorne had to try to invade the Stormlands by sea which was not totally stupid not only because of how vulnerable a fleet would be to dragons and their fire but because it was very unlikely that his efforts to build a fleet for an invasion, while dornish had little lumber and naval expertise and so would need lots of time and help from essosi pirates and shipwrights to build and manoeuver their fleet, wouldn't be noticed by the Iron Throne's intelligence. 

And of course Jaeherys not only heard about Morion's project long before he could act on it, but to add salt to injury he learned it from sources directly present in Morion's court.

When Morion's fleet finally moved it was intercepted and utterly destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons Aemon and Baelon on their dragons in the most crushing and humiliating defeat in Westeros history, finally giving the Targaryens revenge on Dorne and the Martells after Aegon's failed invasion of Dorne.

And it seems that Morion has reincarnated himself in present day in the person of Obara Sand if her plan to avenge her father, Oberyn Martell, with her planning to attack and sack the Marcher Castles and then Oldtown, is anything to goes by.

Though with Obara having, thankfully for Dorne, never actually got the chance to lead and put her plan in action, present series' biggest contender should be Balon Greyjoy with his plans of independance, return of the Old Way and conquest as seen during both of his rebellions with him getting no allies, having his son Rodrick attack Seaguard that was made specifically to repel the Ironborn, him backstabbing the only one willing to ally with him and help him get independance and trying to invade the North despite the Ironborn not having the numbers and means to invade most of its territories or to hold their gains in the long run.

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Hard to say, but I have a couple examples:

Aegon IV with his massive wooden dragons filled with wildfire and trying to get them through the Boneway, well-known for being a treacherous pathway and with wildfire being a highly volatile substance... burning dragon is the result. Not to mention the political implications of attacking someone who is part of your family since Daeron was married to the Martells.

Rhaegar Targaryen at the Trident. He could have taken up defensive positions with the high ground and forced Robert to cross the Trident where his army would be slowed down (armor tends to weigh people down in water), yet he gave up a defensive position and got tenderized, resulting in nobody standing in the way of Robert's army and King's Landing.

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3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

In all of ASOIAF main series books whose character would be the absolute worst strategist of all, with him being so dumb or delusionnal or both when it comes to war strategy and even tactics ?

Historically, if we take in account the WOIAF and Fire and Blood, who would be the worst strategist of all time ?

Historically I think that the greatest candidate would be Morion Martell, who planned to invade the Stormlands via the sea as revenge for the defeat and death of the Vulture King, with him and his fleet ending destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons' dragons in the only conflict in ASOIAF history where one side was annihilated while the other suffered no casualty at all.

Not only he was going to war for a stupid reason while his father had wisely avoided to intervene and risk war with the Iron Throne, but he moronly discarded every asset and advantage he and Dorne had to try to invade the Stormlands by sea which was not totally stupid not only because of how vulnerable a fleet would be to dragons and their fire but because it was very unlikely that his efforts to build a fleet for an invasion, while dornish had little lumber and naval expertise and so would need lots of time and help from essosi pirates and shipwrights to build and manoeuver their fleet, wouldn't be noticed by the Iron Throne's intelligence. 

And of course Jaeherys not only heard about Morion's project long before he could act on it, but to add salt to injury he learned it from sources directly present in Morion's court.

When Morion's fleet finally moved it was intercepted and utterly destroyed by Jaehaerys and his sons Aemon and Baelon on their dragons in the most crushing and humiliating defeat in Westeros history, finally giving the Targaryens revenge on Dorne and the Martells after Aegon's failed invasion of Dorne.

And it seems that Morion has reincarnated himself in present day in the person of Obara Sand if her plan to avenge her father, Oberyn Martell, with her planning to attack and sack the Marcher Castles and then Oldtown, is anything to goes by.

Though with Obara having, thankfully for Dorne, never actually got the chance to lead and put her plan in action, present series' biggest contender should be Balon Greyjoy with his plans of independance, return of the Old Way and conquest as seen during both of his rebellions with him getting no allies, having his son Rodrick attack Seaguard that was made specifically to repel the Ironborn, him backstabbing the only one willing to ally with him and help him get independance and trying to invade the North despite the Ironborn not having the numbers and means to invade most of its territories or to hold their gains in the long run.

Balon Greyjoy. Balon Greyjoy exceeds all these standards by volumes. Trying to control an area the size of North America with a fleet and around 20,000 soldiers. It's not even plunder because there was no economic value. The North is useless to Balon Greyjoy and he doesn't even do it in a smart way. As soon as Robb retakes Moat Cailin, Balon's grip on the North falls apart. Even before Robb, if Ser Rodrik Cassel had raised the mountain clans to augment his strength and killed Ramsay, Balon dies. Balon is incredibly lucky that he has a wildcard in the form of Ramsay Snow. Balon is so stupid and the only redeeming Greyjoys are Theon and Asha.

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1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Balon Greyjoy. Balon Greyjoy exceeds all these standards by volumes. Trying to control an area the size of North America with a fleet and around 20,000 soldiers. It's not even plunder because there was no economic value. The North is useless to Balon Greyjoy and he doesn't even do it in a smart way. As soon as Robb retakes Moat Cailin, Balon's grip on the North falls apart. Even before Robb, if Ser Rodrik Cassel had raised the mountain clans to augment his strength and killed Ramsay, Balon dies. Balon is incredibly lucky that he has a wildcard in the form of Ramsay Snow. Balon is so stupid and the only redeeming Greyjoys are Theon and Asha.

Balon and Ramsay both helped each other fail upward, largely through the actions of Theon Greyjoy.

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1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

I am not sure if actions of Brandon Stark can be classified as military action. But I assume that his idea about going to capital with small warband and telling anyone that he wants to slay crownprince makes him strong candidate for Darwin's Award. 

Brandon Stark was definitely dim upstairs. It was not necessarily a typical military operation but it was confrontation. Aerys should, and may, have squeezed Brandon Stark for information. Varys was involved in the interrogation.
 

Here’s something to think about. His “nephew,” Jon Snow, would do the same reckless thing later. Jon wasn’t as strategically bad. He was at least subtle. Clumsy, but subtle. 

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4 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Balon Greyjoy. Balon Greyjoy exceeds all these standards by volumes. Trying to control an area the size of North America with a fleet and around 20,000 soldiers. It's not even plunder because there was no economic value. The North is useless to Balon Greyjoy and he doesn't even do it in a smart way. As soon as Robb retakes Moat Cailin, Balon's grip on the North falls apart. Even before Robb, if Ser Rodrik Cassel had raised the mountain clans to augment his strength and killed Ramsay, Balon dies. Balon is incredibly lucky that he has a wildcard in the form of Ramsay Snow. Balon is so stupid and the only redeeming Greyjoys are Theon and Asha.

Balon's strategy made sense. His fault was political. He should've accepted Joffrey's claim and asked for lands in the North as a reward.

Robb lost the war when he betrayed the Freys. He would never be able to conquer the North back without Lannister support.

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6 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Balon's strategy made sense. His fault was political. He should've accepted Joffrey's claim and asked for lands in the North as a reward.

This. If he was allied to the Iron Throne, then Tywin probably wouldn't order the Boltons to expel the ironborn. Balon could keep his conquests and have the backing of the regime in charge. The only reason the Iron Throne (i.e. Tywin) didn't ally with the ironborn in Storm is because Tywin was holding out hope that his plan with Roose Bolton would succeed. 

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9 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

This. If he was allied to the Iron Throne, then Tywin probably wouldn't order the Boltons to expel the ironborn. Balon could keep his conquests and have the backing of the regime in charge. The only reason the Iron Throne (i.e. Tywin) didn't ally with the ironborn in Storm is because Tywin was holding out hope that his plan with Roose Bolton would succeed. 

Tywin does that a lot he's like his daughter. He's got got the Bolton scheme,  the ironborn scheme, the Tyrion Sansa scheme, the not reinforce the wall scheme. 

Dude will swing at anything. I'm not saying Tywins the worst military strategist, but he's not the best 

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7 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Balon's strategy made sense. His fault was political. He should've accepted Joffrey's claim and asked for lands in the North as a reward.

Robb lost the war when he betrayed the Freys. He would never be able to conquer the North back without Lannister support.

Balon was never politically motivated. And also, do you really think Balon Greyjoy, the most prideful idiot in Westeros exceeding Tywin and Eustace Osgrey would really bend the knee to Joffrey? Also, what would Joffrey give Balon? 

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13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin does that a lot he's like his daughter. He's got got the Bolton scheme,  the ironborn scheme, the Tyrion Sansa scheme, the not reinforce the wall scheme. 

Dude will swing at anything. I'm not saying Tywins the worst military strategist, but he's not the best 

I think that's one of the reasons why he won, though. He never limited his options by putting all of his eggs into one basket. There were always back-up plans.

In terms of military strategy specifically, I don't think we know enough about how Tywin ran his campaigns to judge them properly. His early actions in the riverlands were successful, and the Battle of the Green Fork was a decisive victory, though he outnumbered the northerners by ~3,000 men. His biggest gamble was pursuing Robb into the westerlands rather than staying put at Harrenhal so he could march on King's Landing if need be - he falsely believed that Stannis would be stuck at Storm's End for a long time, but nobody could have predicted that he'd deux ex machina his way to victory in a single day. Even still, the victory at Blackwater was also another decisive one, though the Lannister/Tyrell relief army was vastly larger than Stannis's, whose army was also already engaged and tired.

Overall, in terms of military strategy and not political strategy, Tywin was middling. Not bad, not great. He was no Robb Stark or Robert Baratheon, but he also wasn't lacking in any way. He was smart enough to recognise that it's better to win politically than on the battlefield, something that Robb Stark never learned.

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7 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Balon was never politically motivated

He crowned himself twice

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think that's one of the reasons why he won, though

Did he? He lived longer then Robb and Balon, not sure if that constitutes as winning. Certainly not losing lol. I just think the wars at halftime and Tywin gave the enemy lots to be pissed off at

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

There were always back-up plans.

They're shortsighted and go against other plans though. Like how can Jeyne and Sansa can both be lady of winterfell?

How do you expect the ironborn and wildlings to be allies if you don't talk to em?

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

the victory at Blackwater was also another decisive one, though the Lannister/Tyrell relief army was vastly larger than Stannis's,

Thats his son. All Tywin did at Blackwater was ride past Tyrions possibly dying body and declare himself protector of the city (protector. smh. I just can't with this guy. He sacked KL and now wants to be called protector lmao)

Tyrion won BW, Stannis didn't even cross the bay, let alone brake any gate when his Tyrell reinforcements came, reinforcements that Tyrion specifically ordered and expected 

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

He was smart enough to recognise that it's better to win politically than on the battlefield, something that Robb Stark never learned.

Smart enough to not get murdered?  Not really lol

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're shortsighted and go against other plans though. Like how can Jeyne and Sansa can both be lady of winterfell?

How do you expect the ironborn and wildlings to be allies if you don't talk to em?

He lets the Boltons (with Jeyne) do the hard work of pacifying the North before replacing them with Tyrion and Sansa.  I imagine it is a set up similar to Vladimir Harkonnen's plan with his nephews in Dune.

He probably considered them allies in the sense they would be weakening an enemy of his for him.

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15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Did he? He lived longer then Robb and Balon, not sure if that constitutes as winning. Certainly not losing lol. I just think the wars at halftime and Tywin gave the enemy lots to be pissed off at

I'm talking about the War of the Five Kings, which saw the last of the large-scale fighting end at the Red Wedding. After that, there was no threat to Tywin's regime. Stannis fled to the Wall, leaving behind Dragonstone and Storm's End which were lightly garrisoned and surrounded; Riverrun was the last bastion of anti-Lannister defiance in the riverlands but it was in the same situation as Dragonstone and Storm's End - outnumbered and surrounded; and the ironborn had left only garrisons in the North, the majority of their forces and captains returning to the Iron Islands for the kingsmoot.

There were no longer any forces in the field operating against the Lannisters and their allies. The only defiance came from a couple of lightly garrisoned castles which would soon be taken. I don't see how this wasn't a victory.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're shortsighted and go against other plans though. Like how can Jeyne and Sansa can both be lady of winterfell?

Obviously Tywin wouldn't have used both plans if he had the choice. He would have gone with the Tyrion-Sansa plan, ideally. But he had to go with his contingency plan of the Jeyne/fArya once Sansa had escaped King's Landing and she couldn't be found. Jeyne was only sent north after Sansa disappeared.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How do you expect the ironborn and wildlings to be allies if you don't talk to em?

Tywin left open the idea of allying with the ironborn only until the Red Wedding happened and he had a new ally to pacify the North - the Boltons. After he had Roose Bolton firmly on his side, he no longer had any use for the ironborn.

Not sure what you mean by wildlings. Which plans did Tywin have that involved the wildlings? 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats his son. All Tywin did at Blackwater was ride past Tyrions possibly dying body and declare himself protector of the city (protector. smh. I just can't with this guy. He sacked KL and now wants to be called protector lmao)

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion won BW

No, Tyrion did not win the battle. Reread the last few Blackwater chapters, as well as Tyrion I in Storm. Even after Tyrion's sortie, he hadn't repelled Stannis's army. He pushed them back from the King's Gate, but not from the Mud Gate, because he got distracted by the fight on the bridge of ships before he could get there. And the Mud Gate was practically undefended, because the "soldiers" had thrown down their weapons and fled when they saw Joffrey leaving. That's where they killed Ser Jacelyn Bywater when he tried to stop them retreating. There were also mobs at the Iron Gate and the Gate of the Gods, trying to get out of the city, which would have opened those gates for Stannis's army. The whole point of Tyrion's sortie was out of desperation, since he realised that the walls and gates could not be held because of how useless the gold cloak defenders were.

This is from the page on the battle from A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Quote

 

While Tyrion is leading the sortie at the King's Gate, the Mud Gate falls under attack as well.[46] Queen Regent Cersei Lannister orders King Joffrey, who is still at the trebuchets near the gate, to be brought back to the castle.[46] When the defenders see their king retire, their morale breaks and they begin throwing down their spears and flee by the hundreds, leaving the walls and killing their officers, including Ser Jacelyn Bywater, in the process.[34] Tyrion manages to disperse the attackers at the King's Gate and makes for the Mud Gate. When Ser Balon Swann points out that the galleys on the river which had smashed into each other have tangled together, creating a bridge of ships, which is being used by Stannis' boldest knights to cross the river, they take the fight to the riverfront.[17] Tyrion eventually finds himself on the bridge of ships, when it is about to collapse. He is severely wounded by Ser Mandon Moore of the Kingsguard, who had been Tyrion's sworn shield throughout the battle.[17] Moore is killed by Tyrion's squire, Podrick Payne.[17][48]

With the bridge breaking up and their Hand lost in battle, the defenders retreat within the city walls.[34] At this point, after only a few hours of resistance, the battle seems to be lost to Tyrion, though at this time he also sees Stannis's army seemingly fighting itself on the other side of the river.

 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis didn't even cross the bay, let alone brake any gate when his Tyrell reinforcements came

The Mud Gate had come under attack from Stannis's troops, and two of the other gates were about to be opened by mobs inside the city.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

reinforcements that Tyrion specifically ordered and expected 

Uh.... what? Tyrion didn't "order" reinforcements, Tywin always intended to march on King's Landing if Stannis attacked. That's why he sat at Harrenhal for so long. And nobody expected that Tywin's relief army would arrive during the battle. People especially did not expect the Tyrells and their bannermen to be with him either. Nobody knew that the Reach had pledged its support to the Iron Throne. Everyone in the city believed that they'd lost the battle before the relief army arrived.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Smart enough to not get murdered?  Not really lol

What does that have to do with anything? The reason he was killed wasn't because of military or political mistakes, but because he was an asshole to his son. That's... sort of the whole point of Tywin's character - he was a great leader and strategist and brought his family to the peak of its power, and yet he was undone because of how he treated his son.

I think your dislike of Tywin as a character is making you reach false conclusions, as well as overlook things that actually happened, and lying or exaggerating about other things.

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On 11/20/2021 at 9:35 AM, Minsc said:

He lets the Boltons (with Jeyne) do the hard work of pacifying the North before replacing them with Tyrion and Sansa.  I imagine it is a set up similar to Vladimir Harkonnen's plan with his nephews in Dune.

He probably considered them allies in the sense they would be weakening an enemy of his for him.

Seems far fetched and convoluted 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I don't see how this wasn't a victory.

Because he sowed lots of future trouble by his actions 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

talking about the War of the Five Kings,

That wasn't a real war though, it's just what some contemporaries called it because they didn't know the full story. Like how Balon and Renly didn't share a title or how Mance, who played a huge role, isn't included 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

end at the Red Wedding. After that, there was no threat to Tywin's regime

But within the month princess Sansa escapes Tywins clutches all but guaranteeing Robbs war will continue 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Stannis fled to the Wall

He didn't flee, he's continuing his war on a different front

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Riverrun was the last bastion of anti-Lannister defiance in the riverlands but it was in the same situation as Dragonstone and Storm's End - outnumbered and surrounded

The castle, no doubt. But the countryside is so hostile and only growing in their hostility that they're a breath away from full fledged rebellion. Thanks to Tywin's monsters, Beric and Catelyn 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

the ironborn had left only garrisons in the North, the majority of their forces and captains returning to the Iron Islands for the kingsmoot.

Which is disastrous for Tywin's govt. 

He had a rare opportunity,  I can't think of another Hand who was invited to an ironborn alliance,  it's a shame he didn't utilize 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Obviously Tywin wouldn't have used both plans if he had the choice. He would have gone with the Tyrion-Sansa plan, ideally. But he had to go with his contingency plan of the Jeyne/fArya once Sansa had escaped King's Landing and she couldn't be found. Jeyne was only sent north after Sansa disappeared.

But the trio of tywin roose and walder planned all this before she escaped 

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Tywin left open the idea of allying with the ironborn only until the Red Wedding happened and he had a new ally to pacify the North - the Boltons. After he had Roose Bolton firmly on his side, he no longer had any use for the ironborn.

But because of the RW the trio's name is now the worst in the north.

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Not sure what you mean by wildlings. Which plans did Tywin have that involved the wildlings? 

Quote

The Watch is grievously under strength. If the Wall should fail . . ."

". . . the wildlings will flood the north," his father finished, "and the Starks and Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally."

It's such half ass politics. Adding more beef to the pot, but refusing to stir.

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

He pushed them back from the King's Gate, but not from the Mud Gate, because he got distracted by the fight on the bridge of ships before he could get there. And the Mud Gate was practically undefended, because the "soldiers" had thrown down their weapons and fled when they saw Joffrey leaving. That's where they killed Ser Jacelyn Bywater when he tried to stop them retreating. There were also mobs at the Iron Gate and the Gate of the Gods, trying to get out of the city, which would have opened those gates for Stannis's army. The whole point of Tyrion's sortie was out of desperation, since he realised that the walls and gates could not be held because of how useless the gold cloak defenders were

But the gates didn't fall.

Obviously things were going terribly and Tyrion was desperate but still, he was the guy leading forces that weren't on fire.

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

This is from the page on the battle from A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Wiki is unfortunately no good

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

The Mud Gate had come under attack from Stannis's troops, and two of the other gates were about to be opened by mobs inside the city.

It looked like that was probable when Tyrion went out but it didn't happen. 

Stannis' main force didn't cross the bay when they got attacked by the reinforcements (thanks to Tyrion destroying the bridge), so whatever forces were on the correct side that were attacking said gates, lost. The mob too, lost.

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Uh.... what? Tyrion didn't "order" reinforcements

Of course he did, he sent Petyr to win Tyrells allegiance when Renly died

10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Tywin always intended to march on King's Landing if Stannis attacked. That's why he sat at Harrenhal for so long

No. He, like always, chased the first shiny object he saw. He tried to trap Robb in the west not knowing that'd be his guaranteed doom but couldn't even defend his home because Edmure beat his Mountain.

I assume he got a raven from Petyr,  saying something along the lines of "Dude march!" And Tywin, being his daughters father, said "ok gimme, 5 min. Don't move without me!"

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

nobody expected that Tywin's relief army would arrive during the battle. People especially did not expect the Tyrells and their bannermen to be with him either. Nobody knew that the Reach had pledged its support to the Iron Throne. Everyone in the city believed that they'd lost the battle before the relief army arrived.

Nevertheless they came. I'm sure it was in the Imps mind. 

Bronn was out there, a couple KG too. Tyrions wildlings make an appearance a day or two later, Tyrions fall or Joffreys retreat didn't spell the ending. 

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

What does that have to do with anything? The reason he was killed wasn't because of military or political mistakes, but because he was an asshole to his son.

It's all politics. Tysha wasn't the only reason. His arrest and disinheritance played huge roles. 

That's like saying Robb died because he was an asshole to his fiance 

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

That's... sort of the whole point of Tywin's character - he was a great leader and strategist and brought his family to the peak of its power, and yet he was undone because of how he treated his son.

Thats not how I read him. He was a jealous friend of a mad tyrant so sought to create his own mad tyranny. His aim was always to shine glory upon Tywin. His sons, daughter, siblings, and grandkids,  be damned. His thirst for glory and belief of his untouchability only made everyone in Westeros hate him and within a year of his death his band-aids on the cancer of Tywins 7k's began to unravel 

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I think your dislike of Tywin as a character is making you reach false conclusions, as well as overlook things that actually happened, and lying or exaggerating about other things.

I think he was a petty man with a petty death, who's ruthlessness is often seen as brilliance but is actually just Cersei like brutality. A real lion, a dumb wild beast 

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12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because he sowed lots of future trouble by his actions 

That's irrelevant when discussing one war specifically. And we were discussing the War of the Five Kings. You know... the only war he actually fought in during the series? It wasn't him that sowed future trouble, it's the fact that Cersei was an incompetent and delusional moron that had no idea how to run the kingdom. Tywin's plan was to have Cersei sent back to Casterly Rock so she couldn't screw up things in the capital and negatively influence Tommen. Since this didn't happen because of his unexpected death, and because Cersei was astoundingly stupid and refused all good advice given to her, things went badly. None of that is on Tywin.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That wasn't a real war though, it's just what some contemporaries called it because they didn't know the full story. Like how Balon and Renly didn't share a title or how Mance, who played a huge role, isn't included 

A lot of wars throughout history have been grouped under one larger name because they took place at the same time, in roughly the same region, and shared some of the same combatants. Should we go back through history and start renaming every war that's like this? Should we change the names of the World Wars and break them down into half a dozen separate wars, even though almost all of them involve several of the same parties and began from the same casus belli? The Napoleonic Wars? The Revolutionary Wars? The American War of Independence? The Seven Years' War? The War of the Austrian Succession? The Great Northern War? The War of the Spanish Succession? The Nine Years' War? The Thirty Years' War? I could keep going, but I'll limit it to only modern history.

Or maybe rather than being a contrarian for contrarian's sake, you can just leave it be because that's how everyone refers to it. It's how George R.R. Martin refers to it too. Doing this type of mental gymnastics to prove some extremely vague and trivial point seems pointless.

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But within the month princess Sansa escapes Tywins clutches all but guaranteeing Robbs war will continue 

But it doesn't. Sansa's escape doesn't motivate the remnants of Robb's "kingdom" to keep fighting - the only sources of continued resistance where in the riverlands - at Riverrun and Raventree - and this had nothing to do with Sansa, since their resistance had begun before Sansa escaped, and it ended without anyone knowing anything about Sansa. If there's any future fighting that involves Sansa, it will be a separate conflict, not a continuation of the War of the Five Kings, since none of the said five kings will be involved.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He didn't flee, he's continuing his war on a different front

Against none of the original combatants of the War of the Five Kings, in a theatre vastly separated from the rest. I think that disqualifies it as being considered part of the War of the Five Kings. Westerosi law and customs ends at the Wall, and Mance was king beyond it. He was not relevant to the War of the Five Kings, he was relevant to separate conflicts. Just because they take place on the same continent (which is the size of South America) doesn't mean it's the same war, and the war in question was called the War of the FIVE Kings, and those five kings were clearly listed, and none of them was Mance. The major foundational factor in the War of the Five Kings was that it began as a war between the Starks and the Lannisters, and the other theatres and campaigns of that war were caused because of this (e.g. Stannis, Renly, Balon). But that isn't the case with Mance. He was already doing what he was doing long before the war started, and he did not come into contact with either the Starks, the Lannisters, or any of their allies.

tl;dr: The conflict at and beyond the Wall was not connected to the War of the Five Kings.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But the countryside is so hostile and only growing in their hostility that they're a breath away from full fledged rebellion. Thanks to Tywin's monsters, Beric and Catelyn 

This falls clearly into the "Aftermath of the war" category of things. Subsequent guerilla violence in individual regions that were affected by a war does not mean it's a direct continuation of the war. Partisan and guerilla violence continued in the Baltic states after WW2 ended, which the Soviets took several years to brutally stamp out, but we don't consider World War II to have continued to 1956, do we? 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which is disastrous for Tywin's govt. 

He had a rare opportunity,  I can't think of another Hand who was invited to an ironborn alliance,  it's a shame he didn't utilize 

But he didn't want nor need said alliance. He preferred having the North be ruled by an actual Northern house, as morally questionable as they were. There was a small chance of pacifying the North through a Bolton puppet regime - there was NO chance under continued foreign occupation by the ironborn. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But the trio of tywin roose and walder planned all this before she escaped

I made somewhat of a mistake by saying Tywin would choose only one or the other, since as @Minsc said, Tywin was essentially using the Boltons to do the hard work of putting everyone in the North back in line, so by the time Tyrion and Sansa went north they'd have a relatively stable region to rule over. The Boltons weren't going to be removed - Roose was still going to be Warden of the North, as Tywin believed he'd be more competent and palatable to northerners than Tyrion, and Ramsay was still going to marry "Arya" - but since Tyrion would be married to the actual heir to Winterfell, that'd trump all the rest, legally speaking. But it wouldn't hurt to have two allies in the North - the Tyrion-Sansa one, and the Roose-Ramsay-fArya one. Roose only took possession of Winterfell in Dance, long after the Tyrion-Sansa plan fell through.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But because of the RW the trio's name is now the worst in the north.

Still better than if Tywin allied with the ironborn and let them have free reign to pillage all of the North.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's such half ass politics. Adding more beef to the pot, but refusing to stir.

But when did Tywin said this? As I recall, it was fairly early in Storm, during one of Tyrion's first chapters, and the first Small Council meeting that he attends. It might have been before Tywin and Roose formed their conspiracy to dominate the North themselves.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But the gates didn't fall.

In all likelihood they were about to, though. But they didn't, because guess why? Tywin and the Reach lords arrived.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

but still, he was the guy leading forces that weren't on fire.

Yeah, so? I'm not denying that he fought bravely and well, and that he contributed to the city holding out a little longer, but he still hadn't won the battle and saved the city. All he'd done was delay Stannis's attack.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Wiki is unfortunately no good

It has citations to the specific chapter where said information is revealed, which is its main use.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It looked like that was probable when Tyrion went out but it didn't happen. 

He stopped the King's Gate from being breached, but not the Mud Gate - the one closest to the river - and he also hadn't stopped the mobs about to break through two other gates on the other side of the city. The gold cloak defenders had fled from these gates, and they were completely unprotected and vulnerable. If Tywin and the reinforcements hadn't have arrived, they would have fallen pretty soon. 

I'm not sure why you're arguing this specific point. It's very clearly stated in the books that the battle seemed to be lost and that the city's defenses had failed. Gates and walls are useless if there's no one on them to defend them.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis' main force didn't cross the bay when they got attacked by the reinforcements

The book states several times that there was soldiers attacking the Mud Gate, which is on the northern bank of the Blackwater Rush. It doesn't matter if the "main force" wasn't across, all it would take is a small handful of soldiers to breach the gate, since again, THE GOLD CLOAK DEFENDERS HAD FLED. Even just one open gate would let the entirety of Stannis's army pour into the undefended and chaotic city.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

so whatever forces were on the correct side that were attacking said gates, lost. The mob too, lost

And why did they lose?

Oh, because Tywin and the reinforcements arrived to destroy them before they opened the gates, which they were poised to do any moment?

I'm just.... I'm so confused by what you're trying to argue here. These problems weren't removed by Tyrion. While the Mud Gate was being attacked and the other two gates were being swarmed by mobs, Tyrion was lying with his face cut open on the bridge of boats. He had nothing to do with defending those other gates. He successfully defended the King's Gate, yes, but not the other three. Why is this concept so hard to understand?

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course he did, he sent Petyr to win Tyrells allegiance when Renly died

He sent Baelish to attempt to negotiate an alliance, but that isn't the same as "ordering reinforcements" to arrive at a specific time. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. He, like always, chased the first shiny object he saw. He tried to trap Robb in the west not knowing that'd be his guaranteed doom but couldn't even defend his home because Edmure beat his Mountain.

"Like always"? So why did he sit at Harrenhal for a few months after the Battle of the Green Fork, rather than marching on Robb's host at once?

Tywin only marched west after:

  1. The Battle of Oxcross saw an entire Lannister army destroyed, and
  2. Renly was killed, his vast host scattered, and Stannis was stuck outside Storm's End

Because of these things, the westerlands were completely undefended, and there was no immediate threat to the east because EVERYONE expected Stannis to be stuck besieging Storm's End for the foreseeable future. No one expected he'd deus ex machina his way to instant victory with a shadowbaby demon.

Tywin's decision to march west at this point was completely strategically sound based on all of the information that he had. You can't judge his decisions with the hindsight and knowledge of the rest of the book and all the other PoV storylines. That's not how commanders make strategic decisions. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I assume he got a raven from Petyr,  saying something along the lines of "Dude march!" And Tywin, being his daughters father, said "ok gimme, 5 min. Don't move without me!"

What does this even mean? Tywin didn't delay in anything. After his forces were beaten by Edmure's at the Battle of the Fords, he turns and marches south-east instead, where he meets up with Lords Rowan and Tarly, and they then meet up with Mace Tyrell. Tywin rendezvoused with the Reach reinforcements as soon as possible. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nevertheless they came. I'm sure it was in the Imps mind. 

What, you mean that Tyrion expected them to arrive specifically while the battle was going on? Really? You're aware of how large Westeros is, right? It's the size of South America, and the distance between the Reach and King's Landing is hundreds of miles. Tyrion had not a single word about the possible Tyrell alliance - aside from a completely unfounded guess at what might have occurred, he had absolutely no idea that an alliance had been formed and that reinforcements were marching rapidly to the city. He had no evidence that suggested that.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bronn was out there, a couple KG too.

Bronn and a couple of KG weren't enough to hold back Stannis's army. They weren't gods or superheroes. Mandon Moore got killed by a bloody kid.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrions wildlings make an appearance a day or two later

Yeah, and how would that have helped the city during the night of the battle when several gates were about to be breached and the city's defenders on the walls had fled in panic? "A day or two later" would see the wildlings show up outside of a city occupied by Stannis and his army.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrions fall or Joffreys retreat didn't spell the ending. 

But this is actually exactly what Martin was suggesting in the chapters. Lancel staggers in and tells Cersei that the battle is lost, not just because Tyrion has fallen, but because the gold cloaks had mutinied, killed their officers and fled their posts. 

Tyrion took the bulk of the trustworthy soldiers with him on his sortie which relieved the King's Gate and fought at the bridge of boats, but they never reached the Mud Gate, which was under direct attack by Stannis's troops. With no one defending the Mud Gate and the other gates, the city was on the verge of being breached by Stannis's troops.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's all politics. Tysha wasn't the only reason. His arrest and disinheritance played huge roles. 

Tyrion only decided to confront Tywin after learning the truth about Tysha. Before that he was set on just getting the hell out of there. It's the show that made it all about his arrest and disinheritance.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's like saying Robb died because he was an asshole to his fiance 

But no one said that. They're completely different situations. This is a false equivalency.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats not how I read him

With all due respect, I think your reading of him is very flawed and overly biased.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He was a jealous friend of a mad tyrant so sought to create his own mad tyranny

Jealous? About what? Tywin was the one that ruled the Seven Kingdoms in all but name. Hence Ser Illyn Payne's poorly chosen remarks. Tywin never cared much about ceremonial pomp, he was satisfied to just be running things behind the scenes. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His aim was always to shine glory upon Tywin. His sons, daughter, siblings, and grandkids,  be damned

So why did he take several actions that damaged his reputation but made his family more powerful, such as the sack of King's Landing, and the brutal campaigns in the riverlands? 

At this point you're not even providing evidence for your claims, you're just making sweeping statements about how much you hate a character. It's a fact that because of Tywin's actions, his family became supremely powerful. His oldest son joined the kingsguard, his daughter married the king, his nephew squired for the king, his brothers and other relatives became knights. Later, he saved his grandson's regime - muddying his own name by atrocities in the process - and organised not one but two marriages for his grandsons into the most powerful family in the kingdom. He gave his relatives chances to prove themselves by giving them important commands and posts. He made his nephew Lord of Darry, his sister Lady of Riverrun, even Tyrion, who he personally despised, he was planning on making Lord of Winterfell.

Do I need to keep going? 

He left House Lannister in a supremely powerful position by the time he died. Whether you personally like him or approve of his actions or not is irrelevant to the reality of what happened.

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His thirst for glory and belief of his untouchability only made everyone in Westeros hate him

He didn't care if people hated him or not. He just wanted them to respect his authority and do as he said. That's not the same as thirsting for glory. Renly and Robert and Robb thirsted for glory. Tywin did not. He just wanted to win, and win decisively.

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

and within a year of his death his band-aids on the cancer of Tywins 7k's began to unravel 

Because of Cersei and her stupidity.

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think he was a petty man with a petty death, who's ruthlessness is often seen as brilliance but is actually just Cersei like brutality. A real lion, a dumb wild beast 

He was certainly petty and ruthless, but that doesn't mean he was stupid or incompetent. Cersei is someone who's pettiness and ruthlessness were matched by her stupidity and incompetence. She took only half of Tywin's traits. That's... sort of the point of her entire character arc in Feast.

Lions are not dumb beasts, by the way. They're considered the king of the jungle for a reason.

 

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. We obviously have vastly different interpretations of this character, and have read the series in.... different.... ways. 

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5 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

A lot of wars throughout history have been grouped under one larger name because they took place at the same time, in roughly the same region, and shared some of the same combatants. Should we go back through history and start renaming every war that's like this? Should we change the names of the World Wars and break them down into half a dozen separate wars, even though almost all of them involve several of the same parties and began from the same casus belli? The Napoleonic Wars? The Revolutionary Wars? The American War of Independence? The Seven Years' War? The War of the Austrian Succession? The Great Northern War? The War of the Spanish Succession? The Nine Years' War? The Thirty Years' War? I could keep going, but I'll limit it to only modern history.

Yes but a lot of those wars already have various sub wars that re distinguished within them. The Napoleonic and French Revolutionary wars have the seven coalition, the Peninsular war, the Neapolitan war, the Finnish war, the Russo Persia war among many others that get thrown into it. The War of Austrian succession also has the two Silesian wars, the first Carnatic war and the war of Jenkin's Ear thrown into it. Many of those had North American sub war sections referred to distinctly including the French and Indian war for the seven years war (which actually started before the actual seven years war) and King George's war for the War of Austrian succession. Hindsight and careful histography is what has resulted in the them largely being grouped together (some of them due have distinct casus belli and alliances and some of them don't history is complicated).

The maesters are calling it the war of the five kings but it's definitive name won't be known until after it's ended and one can be formulated (or the name will be used for the early part of the conflict and a different one for the continuing sections). It ain't over either. Balon is dead but the Ironborn remain in rebellion under Euron, Stannis is still active against the Crown in the North after a brief detour to aid the watch against Wildings and Aegon has landed in the Stormlands. Presumably Dany will show up at some point to get involved and there are others who may seek to get involved in the entire mess. Even the Maesters are disputing the naming as is mentioned in the prologue of AFFC so perhaps we'll have a comment that they've decided on a different name.

 

 

On the other issue of Tywin. My view is that Tywin favours quick solutions to problems with less than a desired consideration for the long term problems such solutions present. The Sack of King's Landing allows him to prove definitively that he has broken with the Targaryens and opens doors for him with Robert's regime that gives him opportunities moving forward but permnanetly turned Dorne against him and alienate more honourable sections of the Rebel coalition like the  Starks. The problem is that other methods likely simply taking the city for Robert without the sack and bloodshed and handing Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys over to Robert would have generated less negative publicity for him.

The Red wedding is similar. Yes in the short term it has ended military hostilities in the Riverlands and North effectively. However most of the Riverlands aren't even pretending to be loyal to the Lannisters. Half of them aren't at the siege of Riverrun and the ones present don't want to be there. In the North it's even worse. Roose's only reliable allies are the Freys and one branch of the Karstarks trying to usurp the main branch. Even his allies by marriage the Dustins and Ryswells have suggestions they are planning treachery against him. The Mormonts and Reeds remain in open rebellion even after the Red Wedding and most appear at least tacitly willing to accept Stannis as King of Westeros because he's fighting against the Boltons. The only reasons the Manderlys aren't initially willing to openly plot against the Boltons is because the Lannisters hold hostages and for the Umbers that only works well enough to keep half of them on the Bolton side on paper. Maybe if Tywin had lived he would have been able to deal with all the horrible political ramifications in the short term for the Red wedding. In the long term there isn't a solution. As long as a descendent of Tywin Lannister sits upon the Iron Throne he will have to deal with Northern and Riverlander Rebellions every time there is a succession crisis or some claimant who comes from overseas to try and claim the throne they'll have fertile ground to rustle up military support for their cause. Tywin permanently alienate three regions from his cause and maybe even created serious concerns for members of other regions who may decide they can't trust them anymore.

Tywin effectively sacrificed long term advantage for short term gains and he does it consistently. He spends most of the books alienating the one member of the next Lannister generation who may have been able to hold everything together to the point he decides to be a kinslayer because he hates him that much and openly work for Tywin's enemies. He'd rather get a somewhat suboptimal heir free of his responsibilities rather than reinforcing an institution whose reputation is in the dirt and which could be a major asset if handled well. He's willing to allow an organization as old as anything in Westeros to fall to allow a marauding army to undermine his enemies and when that fails he hopes to interfere in it in hopes of placing a candidate in charge who'll be loyal to him for political gain destroying it's neutrality for no obvious gain. It's same with his decision to march west against Robb. He decided to fix the short term problem of Robb Stark ravaging his homeland while sacrificing his ability to come swiftly move to defend King's Landing because he made an assumption that Stannis would be tied down besieging Storm's end and that he wouldn't possibly take it so quickly despite the fact he could have simply elected to leave it to strike King's Landing while it was poorly defended or you know kill the garrison commander in a duel.

Tyrion is the only reason King's Landing doesn't fall before the Tyrells can arrive. The Tyrell alliance was his idea as well and the only reason Tywin has a clue that the city is threatened.. He's the only reason the garrison is capable of firing wildfire at Stannis at all and the entire arrangement of the wildfire is suggest to be his idea. He cleared the men battering the King's Gate and while he doesn't get to the Mud Gate it's implied by Balon Swann's arrival that another sortie from the Mud Gate has driven them back. The Baratheon troops at the Mud gate aren't even mentioned to have a battering ram in either reference to them attacking the Mud Gate. The only reason Stannis get's even close to victory is that Cersei orders Joffrey pulled back to the Red Keep. If he'd stayed by the Mud Gate The gold cloaks wouldn't have fled if Joffrey had stayed. By the Time Tyrion is taken out of action the Tyrells have already arrived and are smashing Stannis on the Southern Bank even if what forces he had left been able to break into the city the battle was already lost.

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As far as the Tyrion/Sansa plans, I think that one is a bit of a puzzle for me, given that the title Warden of the North would be bandied between the Boltons and Tyrion and Sansa's possible children. There's also the fact that Tyrion and Sansa would probably not be welcome in the North given Tyrion's deformities (the North doesn't like cripples). On Sansa's end, she's been disinherited and given that nobody tried to help her in the books (parts of the North were willing to go through Hell and high water to rescue "Arya" while nobody even thinks about rescuing Sansa), she's probably an afterthought.

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