The Bard of Banefort Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 I was considering the Lannisters' relationship with the Clegane brothers, and it got me thinking about a few things that I'd be interested in hearing your speculation on. Rather than make separate posts, I just consolidated them here. 1. With the Mountain officially "dead," have his lands technically passed to Sandor, or has the Hound been effectively stripped of all honors after ditching Joffrey? I don't think it was ever addressed, but maybe there's a precedent hidden somewhere in this series. Interestingly, I don't recall Gregor ever being referred to as a lord either. I guess that distinguishes him as a landed knight? 2. Did the Hound know about the twincest? He was a guard for Cersei before Joffrey, so I'm guessing he must have, but then again, none of the kingsguard seemed to figure it out despite serving alongside Jaime for all those years. 3. Why does the Hound hate Tyrion so much? Even before the Blackwater, he clearly loathed him. At one point, the Hound argues that if there were gods, they wouldn't make a "monster" like the Imp, and later says that he should have killed Tyrion "years ago." He also believes that Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion. Compare this to how indifferent he was when he learned that Joffrey had been killed. Tyrion clearly gets under his skin in a way that few other people do. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Sandor is no knight, has fleed in battle abandoning his king, and has sworn the oaths of the kingsguard renouncing to his inheritance. Any of those three alone should prevent him for receiving his brother's lands. I think that if he had knew, it's an information that he would have traded once he had abandoned the Lannisters. Sandor is not particularly thoughtful or bright. Sandor was Cersei's creature and did her bidding. His opinion about Tyrion is surely influenced by her. But it's also likely that Tyrion mocked him, making jokes about his hideous burns, him being Joffrey's dog, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 1. With the Mountain officially "dead," have his lands technically passed to Sandor, or has the Hound been effectively stripped of all honors after ditching Joffrey? I don't think it was ever addressed, but maybe there's a precedent hidden somewhere in this series. Interestingly, I don't recall Gregor ever being referred to as a lord either. I guess that distinguishes him as a landed knight? the Hound was a kingsgaurd . though he wasn't officially a knight and thus I assume he didn't swore kingsgaurd oaths , I believe his white cloak alone stripped him of any title , land or castle he could inherit from his brother. and yes , Gregor was the landed Knight of Clegane's Keep according to the wiki. 28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 2. Did the Hound know about the twincest? He was a guard for Cersei before Joffrey, so I'm guessing he must have, but then again, none of the kingsguard seemed to figure it out despite serving alongside Jaime for all those years. I highly doubt that. before Joffrey , Cersei was still new to queenship and therefore, I'm guessing she was more careful. moreover, there is no hint that either Cersei or Jaimie have a particular trust in the Hound. anyways , I don't think keeping their relationship hidden was that hard for our golden twins. no one would have suspected that the queen's kingsgaurd twin brother visits her for something other than siblings' quality time! it's not like they were Targaryens! 28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 3. Why does the Hound hate Tyrion so much? Even before the Blackwater, he clearly loathed him. At one point, the Hound argues that if there were gods, they wouldn't make a "monster" like the Imp, and later says that he should have killed Tyrion "years ago." He also believes that Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion. Compare this to how indifferent he was when he learned that Joffrey had been killed. Tyrion clearly gets under his skin in a way that few other people do. What are your thoughts? good question! unfortunately I don't know... there could be dozens of explanations but I don't remember coming across any in the books. of course it could be as simple as superstitious about dwarves + the fact that "they don't get along" to put it nicely! but I imagine there must be something more to it that a man-at-arms says he should have killed his lord's son years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted November 22, 2021 Author Share Posted November 22, 2021 Why the Hound hates Tyrion so much would probably be a great question to ask GRRM if he ever does another fan Q&A again (judging by SSM, he used to do a lot of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 1. With the Mountain officially "dead," have his lands technically passed to Sandor, or has the Hound been effectively stripped of all honors after ditching Joffrey? I don't think it was ever addressed, but maybe there's a precedent hidden somewhere in this series. Interestingly, I don't recall Gregor ever being referred to as a lord either. I guess that distinguishes him as a landed knight? Gregors land is like a half a tower, but no. Kg hold no lands, like outlaws. 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 2. Did the Hound know about the twincest? He was a guard for Cersei before Joffrey, so I'm guessing he must have, but then again, none of the kingsguard seemed to figure it out despite serving alongside Jaime for all those years. I'm sure he suspected. They all kinda know 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: 3. Why does the Hound hate Tyrion so much? Even before the Blackwater, he clearly loathed him. At one point, the Hound argues that if there were gods, they wouldn't make a "monster" like the Imp, and later says that he should have killed Tyrion "years ago." He also believes that Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion. Compare this to how indifferent he was when he learned that Joffrey had been killed. Tyrion clearly gets under his skin in a way that few other people do. What are your thoughts? So, they're the like same person. Except one can eat the other. He's a monster, nauseating to talk to let alone look at, but he refuses to live in the shadows. He also acknowledges the absurdity of his world and laughs at it. Meeting himself is too much. It is a two way street, Tyrion can't stand Joffreys dog either. Speaking of Joff, he's no help in the liking Tyrion department, Sansa either on account of him being madly in love with her. But I'd say it fundamentaly boils down to pretty much everyone hates Tyrion and Sandor pretty much hates everyone so there you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Why the Hound hates Tyrion so much would probably be a great question to ask GRRM if he ever does another fan Q&A again (judging by SSM, he used to do a lot of them). according to his latest blog post, he is super busy right now. I hope he first gets the time to finish the books , I can live with only speculating Hound's hatred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: So, they're the like same person. Except one can eat the other. He's a monster, nauseating to talk to let alone look at, but he refuses to live in the shadows. He also acknowledges the absurdity of his world and laughs at it. Meeting himself is too much. I like this. sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Tsarevich Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 While Sandor specifically says that he won't take the knight's vows, I don't think that necessarily rules out the KG vows, or any other vows for that matter. He is listed as a sworn shield in the AGoT appendix. Either way, he seems willing to forsake his claim and prospects of marriage. AGoT Sansa V. The Hound's scarred face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. "Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?" The burned side of his mouth twisted. "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows." "The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly. "Until now," the Hound said in his deep rasp, and Ser Boros fell silent. However, he does speak of becoming a lord in ASoS. That doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't take the KG oath, but it's something one might take a note of. Arya IX. "Stupid blind little wolf bitch." His voice was rough and hard as an iron rasp. "Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother. I'm done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What's a dog to do with lions, I ask you?" He reached for his waterskin, took a long pull. As he wiped his mouth, he offered the skin to Arya and said, "The river was the Trident, girl. The Trident, not the Blackwater. Make the map in your head, if you can. On the morrow we should reach the kingsroad. We'll make good time after that, straight up to the Twins. It's going to be me who hands you over to that mother of yours. Not the noble lightning lord or that flaming fraud of a priest, the monster." He grinned at the look on her face. "You think your outlaw friends are the only ones can smell a ransom? Dondarrion took my gold, so I took you. You're worth twice what they stole from me, I'd say. Maybe even more if I sold you back to the Lannisters like you fear, but I won't. Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that." "He'll never take you," she spat back. "Not you." "Then I'll take as much gold as I can carry, laugh in his face, and ride off. If he doesn't take me, he'd be wise to kill me, but he won't. Too much his father's son, from what I hear. Fine with me. Either way I win. And so do you, she-wolf. So stop whimpering and snapping at me, I'm sick of it. Keep your mouth shut and do as I tell you, and maybe we'll even be in time for your uncle's bloody wedding." 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Why does the Hound hate Tyrion so much? Even before the Blackwater, he clearly loathed him. At one point, the Hound argues that if there were gods, they wouldn't make a "monster" like the Imp, and later says that he should have killed Tyrion "years ago." He also believes that Sansa would have been better off dead than married to Tyrion. Compare this to how indifferent he was when he learned that Joffrey had been killed. Tyrion clearly gets under his skin in a way that few other people do. I actually don't think he necessarily does before the Blackwater, where Tyrion shames him in front of his men and destroys his reputation and perhaps his career. Calling Tyrion a monster doesn't, in my eyes, mean that he hates him... it is a pseudomedieval Westeros, and he is making an argument. 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: Sandor is not particularly thoughtful or bright. I've held a different impression. I think there are instances (I remember two off the top of my head) where he acts in a way which allows reader to attribute him some smarts. Tyrion also regards him as useful... though I admit that this quote is not a ringing endorsement and does not mention his intelligence. ACoK Tyrion XII. She studied his face for a moment. "He says you mean to take the Hound from Joffrey." Damn Varys. "I need Clegane for more important duties." "Nothing is more important than the life of the king." "The life of the king is not at risk. Joff will have brave Ser Osmund guarding him, and Meryn Trant as well." They're good for nothing better. "I need Balon Swann and the Hound to lead sorties, to make certain Stannis gets no toehold on our side of the Blackwater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted November 22, 2021 Author Share Posted November 22, 2021 I shouldn't laugh when the Hound calls Arya a "stupid little bitch" but I can't help it, it's just too funny 20 minutes ago, TsarGrey said: "If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that." This is an interesting line. It could mean a number of things: Sandor's skills as a fighter, of course, but also possibly information about the Lannisters that he's picked up over the years. 28 minutes ago, EggBlue said: according to his latest blog post, he is super busy right now. I hope he first gets the time to finish the books , I can live with only speculating Hound's hatred I don't want to get my hopes up. We've been burned so many times now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAnArtist! Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I shouldn't laugh when the Hound calls Arya a "stupid little bitch" but I can't help it, it's just too funny It's just funny because Arya constantly thinks of herself as being smarter and more cunning than everyone around her, but the Hound couldn't give a shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 11 hours ago, TsarGrey said: I've held a different impression. I think there are instances (I remember two off the top of my head) where he acts in a way which allows reader to attribute him some smarts. Tyrion also regards him as useful... though I admit that this quote is not a ringing endorsement and does not mention his intelligence. Sandor was certainly very useful in a fight, and the Lannisters had reason to consider him royal. But I don't recall him ever offering any particularly deep insight. And I can't find in myself to give credit to the intelligence of a grown man infatuated with a twelve year old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted November 22, 2021 Author Share Posted November 22, 2021 4 hours ago, The hairy bear said: Sandor was certainly very useful in a fight, and the Lannisters had reason to consider him royal. But I don't recall him ever offering any particularly deep insight. And I can't find in myself to give credit to the intelligence of a grown man infatuation with a twelve year old... Eh the ages (and numbers in general) are weird in this series. None of the kids are written like kids, except for maybe Sweetrobin. You just kind of have to roll with it. In another thread, we were saying that George should just do a complete retcon and make all the kids older on the next printing. Lord knows he makes his publishers enough money already to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Technically the Clegane lands would go to... nobody, since Gregor is "dead", so is Sandor, and their sister is dead. Unless Gregor had kids somewhere and given that he killed a man for snoring too loudly, it's unlikely since he would probably kill the child for crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Tsarevich Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 6 hours ago, The hairy bear said: Sandor was certainly very useful in a fight, and the Lannisters had reason to consider him royal. But I don't recall him ever offering any particularly deep insight. And I can't find in myself to give credit to the intelligence of a grown man infatuated with a twelve year old... Well, I could detail the instances I mentioned, but given you're disinclined to credit him... should I bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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