The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)

[SpaceChampion]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It also strikes me as if they plan to gradually do the worldbuilding stuff. We basically saw the taint on saidin/the One Power access of the men before we actually hear them talk about. We hear a lot about the Dragon and stuff, but Lews Therin's name wasn't mentioned so far - we are likely going to get to that (and perhaps even to the scene of his death) when Rand has his big confrontation with Ba'alzamon. Every episode adds more background detail and information to the world and the setting, and that actually works very well.\

The books could only get a prologue once per book, and sometimes uses them for what just could have been another chapter (like Galad's duel with Valda) instead of worldbuilding.  The show on the other hand gets a prologue once per episode, so is using that to great advantage for flashbacks used as worldbuilding.   The only badly used one was from the first episode with Moiraine's voiceover.

 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Gentling does come from gelding: in the first outline, the Red Ajah (when they were more of a religious order) gelded men who could channel on the spot, to stop the channelling gene being passed down. RJ removed that in later drafts

Ha! Again it follows the nonbookers can follow the narrative w/o trouble. Which seems to be a terrific achievement by the writers and the directors and editors etc.  Since this ep., I'm guessing each new one their skills will appear even more impressive!  This cannot have been easy -- and one quite feels they all got themselves very familiar with the source material before-hand, trying to think all of it through, going into future seasons and so on. Which one felt was quite the opposite for a different adaptation of books to screens.  Ah-hem.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You clicked on the wrong thread dude. This is for the show. Your hate read is in Literature , above Entertainment. 
 

Edit: Your, not You’re .

I just pointed out that the whole discussion about gestures being necessary for channeling leads nowhere if you actually take the novels as written seriously. And I came here to praise the show - admittedly, at the cost of the books, but that's definitely my way of praising the show since, for me, so far most deviations from the source material constitute improvements.

And this is a thread for the show. You can reference the books occasionally, I guess, but this isn't a thread for the books but the TW show. I took a tangent in the last iteration of the thread with my rant but, strictly speaking, discussing the books in a thread meant for the show was always kind of a diversion. I just added fuel to that fire ;-).

18 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

The books could only get a prologue once per book, and sometimes uses them for what just could have been another chapter (like Galad's duel with Valda) instead of worldbuilding.  The show on the other hand gets a prologue once per episode, so is using that to great advantage for flashbacks used as worldbuilding.   The only badly used one was from the first episode with Moiraine's voiceover.

Yes, I very much think that the first episode prologue stuff was a late edition in the production process.

But I'd not say that only the prologues of the episodes are used for world-buidling - the episodes as such also have their scenes for info dump and background details ... and it works very fine so far.

I'd also say that the gentling of Logain fits very well with the original 'gelding aspect' of it Jordan intended. We see the women invading his body and basically ripping out whatever mental/magical organ he has to access the One Power. When they later discover how to heal gentling it would make sense for them to discover the wound left by that invasion.

What do you guys think about Lan and Nynaeve? Their relationship so far is light years better and more realistic than the silly dialogues about marriage and whatnot Jordan gave them at the end of the first book and early on in book 2. You actually see how they develop sympathy and respect for each other, how they are interested in one another, etc.

The relationship of Egwene and Rand is also much better than in the books. Them actually being a couple due to them being older makes sense ... and their later conflict when Egwene starts to train with Moiraine also feels more natural and less forced/artificial than in the books.

By the way - some people seem to think the five potential Dragons were the gang plus Nynaeve when I thought it was the gang plus Logain. When Moiraine and Lan realize how powerful Logain is he becomes a serious contender. Nynaeve is never a suspect until her powerful power burst at the end of the episode.

Or did I draw the wrong conclusion there?

[Zorral]

It took me a while to recognize the Tinker Elder, Illa, -- Maria Doyle Kennedy!  Just like Orphan Black's Mrs. S., she knows everything. Ha!  Gads, Kennedy is good.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way: Do we think the female voice Logain heard when threatening the king was just genuine male madness talking or our first glimpse at Lanfear? The show cannot possibly portray her even remotely the way Jordan had her behave or this show is going to become a laughingstock of gigantic proportions (I'm talking about her behavior there, not her look).

I thought that, too, initially but only because in the book Ishamael mentions how he influenced previous Dragons, including Logain. So I thought that maybe it's both Ishamael and Lanfear. But that "I whispered to Logain" type of influence is probably done through the World of Dreams, not when the guy is wide awake. So I'm pretty sure those voices really just the madness. But Logain believes he knows her, because he names her - it's not a name from the books. So it appears to be the show's invention.

Now I would appreciate it if you kept your shitting on the books to a minimum here because you already have a thread for that.  I certainly don't think the show is better at this point, as it has had its own fair share of clunky dialogue and poorly directed scenes.

[SpaceChampion]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The relationship of Egwene and Rand is also much better than in the books. Them actually being a couple due to them being older makes sense ... and their later conflict when Egwene starts to train with Moiraine also feels more natural and less forced/artificial than in the books.

I'd like to see it be a reasonable philosophical difference that divides them, that affect their loyalty to each other.

Rand:  You would gentle me, wouldn't you, if the White Tower ordered you to?  You would betray me?

Egwene:  If you were in danger of falling to the Shadow, yes I probably would.

Rand: Holy shitballs Egwene, am the DR, chosen by the Pattern, therefore whatever I do is what's the Pattern wants me to do.  Who are you and the White Tower to place yourself above the Pattern?

Egwene:  That's not how the Pattern works, Rand!  The Pattern does not choose!  People choose!

Rand:  Half the things that have happened to me are the Pattern bending the world around it.  It makes things happen despite my choosing.  And how in the Light do any of you think you know what is or isn't a danger?  I won't fall to the Shadow.  The Tower are just people, people who fear, and making decisions based on fear is never a good option!  You would let the Dark One win if you gentle me based on fear!

Egwene: I hope it doesn't come to that...

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - some people seem to think the five potential Dragons were the gang plus Nynaeve when I thought it was the gang plus Logain. When Moiraine and Lan realize how powerful Logain is he becomes a serious contender. Nynaeve is never a suspect until her powerful power burst at the end of the episode.

Or did I draw the wrong conclusion there?

We have to separate what the Darkfriends know from what Moiraine knows. 

Darkfriends never said they're looking for ta'veren or potential Dragon Reborns, they might be we don't know what Ishy told them yet.  Dana just spoke of five people in her dreams, and said they all were friends, and she knows their faces.  Ishy obviously showed them to her and all other darkfriends they might cross paths with. 

Logain isn't a friend of Mat and Rand, so isn't one of the five.  It's got to be Nynaeve, but she's dead as far as the boys knows.  But nothing says Ishy wants five people and only five.  There could be hundreds of people he wants the Darkfriends to capture, kill, convert, or follow.  Logain certainly would be one desireable to convert or kill.

Nynaeve is the most powerful wilder ever to have existed, probably.  That's reason enough for Ishy to want her captured.

Moiraine on the other hand knows from her eyes and ears network there are four potential ta'veren in the Two Rivers.  She doesn't know if Nynaeve is one, she just knows Nyn is too old for being the DR.

 

[Zorral]

Are nonbookers all that antsy to know which of these characters is supposed to be a dragon?  This nonbooker doesn't care, at least at this point.  For one thing I'm far more interested in the world and the characters; the power / dark lord  / dragon / whatever ho-hum as there have been so very many over the decades since Fantasy became a Thing.  Watching the various groups and couples and affinities interacting with each other, via one or another of the other characters for whom those relationships and functions are novel at this point, not matter-of-course, is what engages my watching.  What really has me antsy is the question, "How will they all come back together, and how long will that take????????" Ha!

P.S.  I for one would kind appreciate the bookers to not spoil stuff, if possible?

[Argonath Diver]

A book-spoiler-free thread would be welcomed, perhaps. I'm looking forward to explaining a bit more about false dragons and the Red Ajah to my nerds-in-training at work. I only somewhat remember the first maybe 8 books, so I welcome show-focused discussion without talking about all the thousands of pages worth of back stabbing and braid pulling.  

[Ran]

We'll make this the book-spoiler thread, since there's been plenty of discussion there, and someone can start I've started a separate no-book-spoilers thread. Any book-spoilers that show up there, make sure to report them as such so I and the mods know to deal with them.

[Zorral]

Thank you!

[WarGalley]

I've watched the first 2 episodes despite having little interest in the show. It's about what I expected -- something akin to a CW production though not to be meant in a bad way. I think I'll keep watching but mostly because it's been a trip down nostalgia lane as I haven't read the books in over 20 years and I never actually finished the series after waiting so long after the 9th one or so. A lot of the viewing experience is just flashbacks to my teenage years when I was heavily into the story.

I've forgotten how much of the world "borrows" from LotR. The escape scene where the Trollocs follow Moraine and the group to the river crossing but can't cross the water reminded me so much of the same scene from Fellowship of the Ring. The scenery is cool and I do like the ruins, towns and architecture that make this world unique (such as the depiction of Shadar Logoth which I thought would be difficult to do). 

Also don't mind some of the changes made with the characters such as Perrin though I do wish Mat (who was my favorite character) was a little more of a foxy rogue that could provide some more color and humor to the story. I imagine they'll build that up over time as I vaguely recall The Eye of the World being a little bleak throughout it's entirety and I'm guessing Season 1 will cover only that book.

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I thought that, too, initially but only because in the book Ishamael mentions how he influenced previous Dragons, including Logain. So I thought that maybe it's both Ishamael and Lanfear. But that "I whispered to Logain" type of influence is probably done through the World of Dreams, not when the guy is wide awake. So I'm pretty sure those voices really just the madness. But Logain believes he knows her, because he names her - it's not a name from the books. So it appears to be the show's invention.

Fair enough - still, though, they could go somewhere with this whole thing.

46 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Now I would appreciate it if you kept your shitting on the books to a minimum here because you already have a thread for that.  I certainly don't think the show is better at this point, as it has had its own fair share of clunky dialogue and poorly directed scenes.

Well, of course, the show isn't a great show or anything of that sort. But I think it is pretty decent given the quality of the source material. And unlike Jordan and his editors the writers of the show know how to avoid reproducing the bad plot devices Jordan used. As I pointed out, we do have a much more consistent Shadar Logath experience in the show, and a much more intriguing encounter with our first three Darkfriends - neither Padan Fain nor the woman nor Liandrin are obviously evil when we meet them for the first time. Liandrin even seems to be a complex and interesting character in her own right.

And, I must say, a lot of generic fun guy lines - like the ones Mat gets so far - are much better than the stuff Jordan gave him in the books. And a scene like Moiraine and Lan in the tub both established that you can share a tub without fucking - like certainly people cannot believe to the case for Nettles and Daemon ;-) - as well as establishing more about their past and relationship than the books I read so far.

51 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I'd like to see it be a reasonable philosophical difference that divides them, that affect their loyalty to each other.

Rand:  You would gentle me, wouldn't you, if the White Tower ordered you to?  You would betray me?

Egwene:  If you were in danger of falling to the Shadow, yes I probably would.

Rand: Holy shitballs Egwene, am the DR, chosen by the Pattern, therefore whatever I do is what's the Pattern wants me to do.  Who are you and the White Tower to place yourself above the Pattern?

Egwene:  That's not how the Pattern works, Rand!  The Pattern does not choose!  People choose!

Rand:  Half the things that have happened to me are the Pattern bending the world around it.  It makes things happen despite my choosing.  And how in the Light do any of you think you know what is or isn't a danger?  I won't fall to the Shadow.  The Tower are just people, people who fear, and making decisions based on fear is never a good option!  You would let the Dark One win if you gentle me based on fear!

Egwene: I hope it doesn't come to that...

That sounds to me like an unreasonable conflict. Rand al'Thor can join the Shadow like everybody else. It is his call, his choice (not to mention as per silly book rules you can also be magically forced to join the Shadow).

And since he should be smart enough to know this he would have no issue with Egwene taking his powers if he became a dirty Darkfriend.

The idea that the Dragon being the Dark One's little lackey is going to help the good guys to defeat the Dark One is somewhat of a stretch. No sane person would believe that ... if they did they could just as well declare Ishamael the Dragon and believe that following him will defeat the Dark One eventually somehow.

At this point the issues between them are pretty real. We have Egwene's earlier career choice, and their different views of the Aes Sedai based on how they are likely going to be treated by them.

51 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

We have to separate what the Darkfriends know from what Moiraine knows. 

Darkfriends never said they're looking for ta'veren or potential Dragon Reborns, they might be we don't know what Ishy told them yet.  Dana just spoke of five people in her dreams, and said they all were friends, and she knows their faces.  Ishy obviously showed them to her and all other darkfriends they might cross paths with.

Logain isn't a friend of Mat and Rand, so isn't one of the five.  It's got to be Nynaeve, but she's dead as far as the boys knows.  But nothing says Ishy wants five people and only five.  There could be hundreds of people he wants the Darkfriends to capture, kill, convert, or follow.  Logain certainly would be one desireable to convert or kill.

Nynaeve is the most powerful wilder ever to have existed, probably.  That's reason enough for Ishy to want her captured.

Moiraine on the other hand knows from her eyes and ears network there are four potential ta'veren in the Two Rivers.  She doesn't know if Nynaeve is one, she just knows Nyn is too old for being the DR.

But didn't Moiraine and Lan also talk about five guys in the last episodes? They had no contact, presumably, with Ishamael or the other Darkfriends, right? So for them Logain is a potential suspect while for Rand and Mat Nynaeve is now a suspect, too, although they don't know that Nynaeve is still alive.

We do have the general prophecy/age thing ... but Logain as well as Nynaeve's burst would add doubt to the whole thing. At least in the eyes of those who don't know/care much about the prophecy.

[SpaceChampion]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Dragon being the Dark One's little lackey is going to help the good guys to defeat the Dark One is somewhat of a stretch. No sane person would believe that ... if they did they could just as well declare Ishamael the Dragon and believe that following him will defeat the Dark One eventually somehow.

That isn't what i said at all. 

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But didn't Moiraine and Lan also talk about five guys in the last episodes?

No, I don't think they did.

[john]

Moraine suddenly thinking Logain might be the dragon makes no sense. She already rejected Nynaeve and left her to die, as far as she knew, on the basis that she was 25. Although Moraine’s confidence in telling Logain that he’s full of shit did make me wonder if she actually ever really thought he was the DR in the first place. 

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - some people seem to think the five potential Dragons were the gang plus Nynaeve when I thought it was the gang plus Logain. When Moiraine and Lan realize how powerful Logain is he becomes a serious contender. Nynaeve is never a suspect until her powerful power burst at the end of the episode.

Or did I draw the wrong conclusion there?

Moiraine always spoke about four, and she seemingly ruled out Nyneave in the 1st episode based on her age. After the end of ep4, they will probably doubt again. Before that, Moiraine was clearly somewhat worried it could be Logain, but she ruled him out during their talk. So, I guess Moiraine will still think it's one of Egwene, Rand, Matt and Perrin, but with lingering doubt about Nynaeve as well, even if she doesn't seem to fit whatever prophecy Moiraine has heard (but prophecy can be wrong or misleading).

I like the episode, though I wonder if it isn't hard to follow for non-readers with all that info. Even the "who is the DR" storyline seems to work better than feared. In this episode, they cast suspicion on a number of characters: Logain (with his power/charisma and Moiraine's initial reaction to it), Matt (with the effects of the dagger), Rand (with his dream), Egwene (casually mentioned as being a very strong channeler; new info  for non-readers) and most of all Nynaeve.

There was a lot of info in this episode, but I felt the exposition worked. I liked the warder scenes, mostly Lan and Nyneave too (though the old tongue thing indeed wasn't believable). I also like the character interactions:

-Lan and Moiraine: nice representation of how tuned they are to one another, Lan doesn't need much dialogue to tell what Moiraine needs or thinks

-Nyneave and Steffin. As others have written, I suspect Allana will attempt to save Steffin after Kerene's death.

-Rand and Thom: with the story of Owyn still in, and brought organically into the story. Thom's scene with the Fade was excellent.

-Rand and Matt: I liked how supportive Rand is, heeled on by Thom's words. I wonder if Matt will return the favour next episode, when Rand may be sick at some point.

-Matt and Else

-Egwene and Aram, with the latter indeed a very fun character in the show (though there are hints he may go somewhat in the same direction as in the books)

-Perrin and Ila

-Allana and Moiraine (though I wonder how Allana could not remember Siuan and Moiraine were friends, if they play that angle as they seem to go for with the mention that the Amyrlin has it in for Moiraine. Maybe she thinks they broke up.)

-Logain and the King of Ghealdan; that the latter died in an attempt to free the former, shows that the real Dragon later also has a chance to inspire such loyalty

 

The cold open in Ghealdan was impressive, introducting an important new character, his effect on the King and also serving as another way to show the madness.

Everything with Rand, Matt and Thom was great also, though I'm surprised it was Matt who got sick. The attack by the Fade (and the fake out with Matt and the dagger) was excellent. They did not waste Thom.

The battle scenes at the end were the weaker point of the episode, though it was good that they showed that even False Dragons can have very loyal followers (and in one swoop move, that Aes Sedai are divided and potentially very dangerous to the actual dragon).

Though the Nyneave scene at the end was over the top, it was nonetheless effective to get the shock effect they wanted. Since Nynaeve is actually stronger than any (pre-Egwene/Nynaeve) channeler in the Tower and she has already been using healing in her "Wisdom" capacity (and she was certainly angry enough), the whole thing just about works as a stretch.

About Logain being able to see t'averen: there is scene in a teaser where he is in a cage and he laughs. No doubt this is in Tar Valon, and some kind of copy of a similar scene in Caemlyn in the books. Possibly, the show is coy about this at this point.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

That isn't what i said at all. 

You seemed to consider it a good idea for a philosophical conflict between Rand and Egwene whether it might be a good or bad idea to gentle Rand.

And my point was that it isn't, since Rand - being no moron - would know that it would be the best idea in the world to gentle him if he was either mad and/or had joined the Dark One.

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Moiraine always spoke about four, and she seemingly ruled out Nyneave in the 1st episode based on her age.

Exactly, yes.

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

After the end of ep4, they will probably doubt again.

That is what I assume, too. Moiraine/Lan might not be all that convinced, but the other Aes Sedai might consider her a very likely candidate. In fact, with the Dragon being either male or female there is a rather obvious plot for an internal Aes Sedai conflict ... the Reds and their allies could insist the Dragon Reborn is either Nynaeve or Egwene (should they ever get a hold of either or both) whereas a powerful male channeler would, by default, be viewed as another False Dragon. Because it would be very convenient for them if that was the case.

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Before that, Moiraine was clearly somewhat worried it could be Logain, but she ruled him out during their talk. So, I guess Moiraine will still think it's one of Egwene, Rand, Matt and Perrin, but with lingering doubt about Nynaeve as well, even if she doesn't seem to fit whatever prophecy Moiraine has heard (but prophecy can be wrong or misleading).

Yes, that would be my assumption, too. That Moiraine was no longer considering Logain after their talk where she told him she didn't buy his story is pretty obvious.

10 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I like the episode, though I wonder if it isn't hard to follow for non-readers with all that info. Even the "who is the DR" storyline seems to work better than feared. In this episode, they cast suspicion on a number of characters: Logain (with his power/charisma and Moiraine's initial reaction to it), Matt (with the effects of the dagger), Rand (with his dream), Egwene (casually mentioned as being a very strong channeler; new info  for non-readers) and most of all Nynaeve.

I think that plot line works pretty well, actually, and it is also a plot line that is (sort of) in the book. It takes quite some time for the reader to really start to believe that Rand is a male channeler. And it is clear that the bad guys hunt all the boys, not just Rand.

I must say I also enjoy how they depict Mat being possessed by mashadar. The shadow thingy they encountered in Shadar Logoth is inside him and tries to get out ... which is a great visualization for something we only hear about in words in the books, where Moiraine claims that Mat would not only die himself but soon be able to corrupt and kill everything he touches.

I expect him to be healed rather soon in the show, considering they all might end up at Tar Valon.

[Wouter]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that plot line works pretty well, actually, and it is also a plot line that is (sort of) in the book. It takes quite some time for the reader to really start to believe that Rand is a male channeler. And it is clear that the bad guys hunt all the boys, not just Rand.

I must say I also enjoy how they depict Mat being possessed by mashadar. The shadow thingy they encountered in Shadar Logoth is inside him and tries to get out ... which is a great visualization for something we only hear about in words in the books, where Moiraine claims that Mat would not only die himself but soon be able to corrupt and kill everything he touches.

I expect him to be healed rather soon in the show, considering they all might end up at Tar Valon.

I think so, too. Though I wonder if the tie to the dagger will remain at first, like in the books, to help drive the plot of season 2 as it did in book 2. 

With the shadow force hunting all the boys (and the girls, too, in the show), I like that they remember that the DO does not simply want the Dragon (and friends, even) dead. In the show, Nynaeve is probably alive because of that, and Dana also wanted Matt and Rand alive (and the others, too, should they have been there).

 

Edit: noticed the Fade grabbing one of Thom's (thrown) knives out of the air! Very book-like, as is Thom just reaching for more knives. They really pulled that scene off.

[fionwe1987]

Did anyone find it weird Liandrin was willing to burn out keeping Logain shielded?

Spoiler

Now, maybe she was pretending to disarm Moiraine or something, but if not, that's very weird behavior for a Black sister, especially Liandrin from the books.

Maybe they're complicating her backstory/character too, making her more than merely hungry for power.

Quote

 

 

[Wouter]

Liandrin is probably sincere in her Red Ajah beliefs and thus truly affronted by a man channeling, even though she also has "other interests". May have been acting on impulse and adrenaline. She also was in danger.

[SpaceChampion]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You seemed to consider it a good idea for a philosophical conflict between Rand and Egwene whether it might be a good or bad idea to gentle Rand.

And my point was that it isn't, since Rand - being no moron - would know that it would be the best idea in the world to gentle him if he was either mad and/or had joined the Dark One.

Nope.  What to do about Rand falling to the Shadow is not in question, pre-emptively gentling him is, but that's not philosophy, that's strategy, and whether the White Tower has the ethical authority to gentle him without cause, merely because of what he might do.

The philosophical disagreement is on how the Pattern works.  That's metaphysics.  Can reduce it to attribution theory perhaps.