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The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)


A True Kaniggit

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I'm very fond of those notes, because they show RJ had a much wilder imagination than you'd necessarily imagine from just the books. Not all the stuff in there works for me, by any means, but I do wish some of it survived whatever process RJ used to convert ideas into writing. I wouldn't be too upset if some of the changes to the show follow these alternate storylines RJ had in mind. 

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39 minutes ago, Maia said:

Also, I kinda never realised that Moiraine is a gender-flipped Merlin (rather than Gandalf who she is often compared with), but the notes make it clear. She was even supposed to become the Amyrlin at one point in the early conception of WoT!

I was thinking last night, if Moiraine doesn't get lost in Finnland and sidelined until the final season, then she could easily take Cadsuane's role, and end up as Amyrlin.

She can still get trapped by the Finns for a half season or so but Mat should rescue her ASAP instead of 8 books later.

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4 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

She can still get trapped by the Finns for a half season or so but Mat should rescue her ASAP instead of 8 books later.

Next you're going to be saying that we shouldn't have Mat buried in rubble for all of season 8. 

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14 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I was thinking last night, if Moiraine doesn't get lost in Finnland and sidelined until the final season, then she could easily take Cadsuane's role, and end up as Amyrlin.

She can still get trapped by the Finns for a half season or so but Mat should rescue her ASAP instead of 8 books later.

I don't see how she can take Cadsuane's role, to be honest. Moiraine can't just switch gears and become a different person. And having her be constantly around Rand doesn't work at all, because he'd sidelined her, by the time she "died", anyway. It's only in retrospect that Rand realizes Moiraine was much more of a straight shooter than he'd imagined. I don't think he'd get that perspective if she hangs around him, protecting him from all the other Aes Sedai.

I also really don't see how his kidnapping works if Moiraine is around.

Honestly, Moiraine's return felt so thin and so meaningless that I'd rather she die for real, than have her hang around with nothing to do. Part of why her return felt meaningless was down to Sanderson, I'm sure, but I also feel RJ didn't think it through very much, either. Sure, she's become the one person whom both Egwene and Rand would listen to, but nothing about the way her return was handled showed that. Add to this that Rand and Egwene's issue was less a deep divide on strategy and more a misunderstanding if timing, and the whole thing seems rather pointless. 

Now, I'm sure the show will do better, when it comes to Rand and Egwene coming to blows, but for that to make sense, you're going to have to remove Moiraine from the picture. 

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55 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I was thinking last night, if Moiraine doesn't get lost in Finnland and sidelined until the final season, then she could easily take Cadsuane's role, and end up as Amyrlin.

I was recently thinking how much better the later books would have been if instead of introducing Cadsuane and wallowing in PLOD/Andoran succession Jordan had accelerated Mat's plot-line and Moiraine got rescued in book 9.  I don't think that everything would have been sweetness and light with Rand if she returned earlier and she, of course, should have also been severely traumatised by her ordeal (she was far too together in AMoL, IMHO, but a draft suggests that Jordan contemplated something even worse than in the published text), so she shouldn't have been able to help him easily resolve his emotional problems. And if she had bargained for AoL knowledge as 1 of her 2 wishes that we never learned about(!), a lot of what needed to happen with the Cleansing and Callandor would have felt like less of an ass-pull. Like, mixed-gendered linking and weaving the opposite power should have been much more of a hurdle after 9 books of description of how working with saidin and saidar is completely different and how alien the other gender's approach feels.  After Latra Posae was first mentioned in the Strike of Shayol Ghul, I though that for sure her ultimate fate will be revealed via excursion to Finnland. I love Min, but her figuring out the nature of Callandor never felt convincing. But Latra might have plausibly known. Might have been one of it's creators, even.  

Heh, I never understood why Cadsuane was picked by Team Jordan. She is an old-timer and things need to be upended for the new Age. And I absolutely hated how Cadsuane was the one who figured out Rand's game at the end and saw him go, even though Moiraine and Thom knew everybody involved far better than she. Just why?! 

 

48 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Next you're going to be saying that we shouldn't have Mat buried in rubble for all of season 8. 

Heresy, I know! Relationship with Tuon really needed more space to develop to feel believable. The cannon invention plot would have been less ludicrous if Mat began working on it earlier, too.

 

40 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Honestly, Moiraine's return felt so thin and so meaningless that I'd rather she die for real, than have her hang around with nothing to do. Part of why her return felt meaningless was down to Sanderson, I'm sure, but I also feel RJ didn't think it through very much, either.

 

Sure, but all of this could have been avoided if she returned earlier, but when Rand was already Darth Rand. It actually would have worked on many levels - to upend the stoopid AS strength hierarchy, to challenge Aiel WOs narrow-mindedness/superiority complex, to inject necessary knowldege in a manner consistent with established precedent, rather than just handwaving fundamental problems away, to have somebody who learned that feeling is important the hard way and who may have contributed to Rand's issues in that respect desperately try to rectify her mistake, etc.  There was so much meat potentially in Moiraine's return, while Cadsuane was just another powerful bully, sigh. 

In terms of the show, maybe they could have Moiraine sit out 2 or 3 seasons, only appearing as various characters memories of her and then be rescued. Though I suspect that they aren't going with the super-thin Thom romance in the show and instead making Siuan and her still a couple. But certainly, they can also kill her for good. But Cadsuane is unnecessary either.

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I finally got around to E4 last night, and it probably says something that I wasn't in a rush to get to it. I'm not thrilled with some of the choices they've made about adapting the books, as I said before, and that definitely has impacted my enjoyment. But even setting that aside and trying to consider it on its own merit as a show--I'm not super impressed?

Episode 1 was a mess, there were a few things to like but mostly it was not good. Episodes 2-3 worked better for me, and I was cautiously optimistic that things were improving. I re-watched episodes 1-3 with my boyfriend (who has read only EOTW) and didn't really find anything new or better about them the second time through.

During episode 4 my boyfriend and I both burst out laughing on at least two different occasions. It's just so cheesy! The dialogue has been really hit or miss for all the episodes. The heavyhanded slow mo in this episode was way overwrought, and I found the "heal bomb" or whatever that Nynaeve did totally ridiculous. The way the taint talking to Logain was visualized also made me roll my eyes--much preferred the "Mr Robot" approach with the guy in the first episode. I know there were good moments in the episode but honestly I forgot them within an hour of watching because the lingering feel of the episode was just meh.

And I think the choice to make "who is the DR" a central mystery of the season has just really hamstrung it. You have to sideline all of Rand's story to make it work, making Rand a total nothing of a character. You waste time setting up these other characters as "ooh maybe the Dragon??" instead of cool in their own right. The show definitely needs to be more of an ensemble from the start (like seeing Nynaeve and Lan interact more, instead of just getting glimpses from Rand's POV), but I think this way of doing it is actually backwards, especially once the "big reveal" comes out and non-book readers have to re-calibrate their understanding of the season.

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

I wish I liked it more, as this is likely to be the only adaptation I ever get to see. I'll stick it out the rest of the season and then re-evaluate. Maybe it will improve once we lose this stupid "who is the DR" plot and move past EOTW.

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9 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

I don't think you're crazy at all, FWIW.

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51 minutes ago, Maia said:

Sure, but all of this could have been avoided if she returned earlier, but when Rand was already Darth Rand. It actually would have worked on many levels - to upend the stoopid AS strength hierarchy, to challenge Aiel WOs narrow-mindedness/superiority complex, to inject necessary knowldege in a manner consistent with established precedent, rather than just handwaving fundamental problems away, to have somebody who learned that feeling is important the hard way and who may have contributed to Rand's issues in that respect desperately try to rectify her mistake, etc.  There was so much meat potentially in Moiraine's return, while Cadsuane was just another powerful bully, sigh. 

In terms of the show, maybe they could have Moiraine sit out 2 or 3 seasons, only appearing as various characters memories of her and then be rescued. Though I suspect that they aren't going with the super-thin Thom romance in the show and instead making Siuan and her still a couple. But certainly, they can also kill her for good. But Cadsuane is unnecessary either.

We clearly have a completely different view of Cadsuane. She's not a late addition to the series though. I believe RJ's earliest notes mention a Kadsuane, though perhaps the role she was to play got fleshed out later.

I just don't see how Moiraine makes sense as the person helping Rand here, though. Nothing about it feels in character for her, and it's hard to see how she'd be able to shake up anything. 

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31 minutes ago, Starkess said:

I finally got around to E4 last night, and it probably says something that I wasn't in a rush to get to it. I'm not thrilled with some of the choices they've made about adapting the books, as I said before, and that definitely has impacted my enjoyment. But even setting that aside and trying to consider it on its own merit as a show--I'm not super impressed?

Episode 1 was a mess, there were a few things to like but mostly it was not good. Episodes 2-3 worked better for me, and I was cautiously optimistic that things were improving. I re-watched episodes 1-3 with my boyfriend (who has read only EOTW) and didn't really find anything new or better about them the second time through.

During episode 4 my boyfriend and I both burst out laughing on at least two different occasions. It's just so cheesy! The dialogue has been really hit or miss for all the episodes. The heavyhanded slow mo in this episode was way overwrought, and I found the "heal bomb" or whatever that Nynaeve did totally ridiculous. The way the taint talking to Logain was visualized also made me roll my eyes--much preferred the "Mr Robot" approach with the guy in the first episode. I know there were good moments in the episode but honestly I forgot them within an hour of watching because the lingering feel of the episode was just meh.

And I think the choice to make "who is the DR" a central mystery of the season has just really hamstrung it. You have to sideline all of Rand's story to make it work, making Rand a total nothing of a character. You waste time setting up these other characters as "ooh maybe the Dragon??" instead of cool in their own right. The show definitely needs to be more of an ensemble from the start (like seeing Nynaeve and Lan interact more, instead of just getting glimpses from Rand's POV), but I think this way of doing it is actually backwards, especially once the "big reveal" comes out and non-book readers have to re-calibrate their understanding of the season.

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

I wish I liked it more, as this is likely to be the only adaptation I ever get to see. I'll stick it out the rest of the season and then re-evaluate. Maybe it will improve once we lose this stupid "who is the DR" plot and move past EOTW.

 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think you're crazy at all, FWIW.

My bestie and I thought we were alone on crazy island. I hate the mystery box dragon stuff. It's all cheap trickery that hamstrings the development of the characters in favor of getting more question marks on Twitter. 

I haven't burst out laughing since episode 1, but I thought Nynaeve's healbomb (good name) was the stupidest and most ill-conceived thing yet. 

Also, I ranted at some length about mind-blankingly incompetently stupid it was to have Logan ALL OVER the episode but refuse to allow him to speak until the last 2 minutes. Just dumb. You have the actors. You have the set and the props and cameras are here. Can we get a fucking script where characters speak? Apparently not, because that might imperil the WhoDragon mystery!

ETA: Actually the Perrin wife thing is still the stupidest thing they did. I mean, how does he not join the Tinkers? With his dead wife it actually seems weird that he doesn't renounce violence in all forms, right?

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23 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

I agree with Ran in that your opinion is not crazy at all.

I think that if I had experienced the show in a vacuum then I wouldn't have lasted through the first episode because it's sooooo campy.

I have a friend with similar tastes to me who hasn't been exposed to the books and I asked for their assessment. Their opinion was...abrasive.

This show was never going to be prestige level television. The novels are far too simplistic and naturally limit what can be achieved. This wasn't going to be The Wire, or the early seasons of Game of Thrones.

But the show certainly aims lower than even the books. This is like...Merlin territory. Maybe a notch above Legend of the Seeker. Pleasure can be found in the experience, so long as you are able to ignore the totality of stupidity that permeates the show.

I've achieved a mindset from which I can enjoy the show for its vague resemblance to the books. But I think not liking the show would not be controversial among a general audience.

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15 hours ago, karaddin said:

On balefire and the dark ones prison - balefire travels within the physical realm, the dark ones prison is not located within the physical realm, even though its "closest" at SG. Likewise the seal is also not physically present and thus balefire can't hit those weaves. Also its established that cuendillar is not effected by balefire, and given thats what the physical representation of the seals is made out of, I'd say its pretty unlikely balefire would destroy the weaves even if it could reach them. Its unclear if they physically block it, or are simply insubstantial to it so it passes right through without doing anything.

The Dark One touched and touches reality at Shayol Ghul. Ishamael himself and the other Forsaken were (sort of) trapped there. They are physical beings, just as the Dark One is when and insofar as he enters the world (which he does in the end, allowing Rand to technically kill him).

Meaning those seals, being created by physical beings using the One Power are in some sense physical things as well. They are as real as everything else created by the One Power - like balefire is, too. So of course we have to assume that balefire could be used to weaken or destroy the seals.

The cuendillar seals aren't the actual seals, nobody said the balefire should destroy them.

In any case, though, Ishamael being a nihilist would, again, not bother if balefire weakened or destroyed reality, especially not as his madness grew worse and worse. He would relish at the fact that everytime he used it people and things were killed, destroyed, distorted.

And if reality were to be completely destroyed at/around Shayol Ghul then this certainly should or could free the Dark One, no? I mean, the whole Blight thing is the Dark One corrupting/destroying reality, right?

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

I did think that goading Rand into unravelling the pattern with balefire was the Dark Ones plan, so I would like an exploration of why the shadow doesn't use it explicitly to do that - the rest of the Forsaken might simply want to keep living but Ishy would do that regardless so I think its safe to assume the DO doesn't want that. Perhaps unravelling the pattern in that way wouldn't give him the materials to "remake it in his image". The DO is essentially a primordial being of chaos/destruction, so being unable to create the materials of reality could certainly fit, just reshape what exists as he sees fit.

Isn't the chance pretty good that he has no intention to recreate anything in his image but rather destroy everything for good and all?

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

Also Callandor and angreal / sa'angreal are irreplaceable without gutting much of whats important in the story, whatever summaries you've read are simply failing to convey their importance to the story. Yes you could write around them, but it would drastically change the story and take way more screen time than simply including them - why on earth would a show only audience struggle with "this object amplifies the power a lot" and "this object basically makes you a god". If the issue is that you feel the Forsaken fail to adequately prioritise retrieving them for personal use, you can simply make them much more rare than in the book. But the base concept, Callandor and the Choden Kal are core to the story.

From what I know both the big sa'angreals as well as Callandor are just tokens they use to accomplish certain crucial things. I'm not saying they should cut them - I said they could cut them if they were giving Rand pretty much the ability to destroy entire armies all by himself like he does at the end of the first book with the saidin from the Eye.

My take was that they should tone down on that because the show doesn't need three instances of the Dragon Reborn revealing himself. If they keep Callandor - as I think they should - Rand taking the sword should be the big moment after which the people start to believe he is the real deal.

If you cut to the chase then the crucial things are that Rand remembers stuff from Lews Therin's days, figures out a way to repair things that are broken, figures out how to clean saidin, etc.

All that could be done like it was in the books. Or it could be simplified. A lot.

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I don't think the opinion is crazy either. I did like Episode 4, warts and all, a little more because it expanded the world a bit, but I'm still nowhere close to thinking this is going to be a good adaptation, just that maybe if they keep improving, it'll get better.

Definitely think that once the "Who's the DR" crap is over and done with, things can improve as we learn the others all have their own roles to play, as well, and they can breathe and be what they're supposed to be, as opposed to being fit into the box of "potential Dragon Reborn".

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They are physical beings, just as the Dark One is when and insofar as he enters the world (which he does in the end, allowing Rand to technically kill him).

:rofl:

Are there any rules against posting fan-fiction in this thread? Because that's what we're getting now. 

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49 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

I’ve felt like this for the last ten years with Game of Thrones. Some people think that is the best tv show ever. I’m like it’s not even a good tv show.

Is WoT show better than the books? I’d say they are both things I’ve enjoyed and both have huge flaws. It’s not a strong adaptation in terms of the general feel of it though, I think I prefer the more down to earth reality of the show than EotW book.

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1 hour ago, Starkess said:

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

Nah. The Aram line to Egwene was so aged cheddar I wrinkled my nose the first time and laughed when my 14 yo wrinkled hers when we watched it together. There is some atrocious dialogue in this show, but there are also people in rl who use lines just as bad, so [shrug]

Ep04 was the decider for me if I'd keep watching. I'll give it a go, but those first three eps whew man 

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41 minutes ago, IFR said:

But the show certainly aims lower than even the books. This is like...Merlin territory. Maybe a notch above Legend of the Seeker. Pleasure can be found in the experience, so long as you are able to ignore the totality of stupidity that permeates the show.

How much of this stupidity can be blamed on the show though? I don't remember the first books of WoT as anything remarkable. A few -admittedly important- counter-examples notwithstanding, this is a pretty faithful adaptation. If anything, they did away with a lot of stupidity from the source material, and fleshed out the characters better.

I understand the Merlin analogy. The more I think about it, the less I can get over how cheap the costumes look ; I have cosplaying friends whose costumes are at least as good. The first battle felt low-budget. And it's true the dialogue has been hit and miss so far, with as many great lines as dreadful ones.
But it ends up being a glass half-full half-empty kind of thing. There was always going to be some cheesy lines, because the books have plenty of those. OTOH, some lines in these first four episodes were a pleasant surprise - especially since many are not even from the books.
The main difference for me is that Merlin was boring. It was the show that never really took off, with its first real "moments" being somewhere around season 3 IIRC. Merlin also offered a simple world, and somehow, even simpler plots. By contrast, WoT does the job of establishing complex plot points and world-building that will -potentially at least- allow it to grow into an amazing show. It also has more action and tension in its first four episodes than an entire season of Merlin imho. 
Managing to cram a lot of worldbuilding while remaining entertaining is something that seems easy, but actually isn't. Many shows fail at doing that, even when they have books to work with.

I'm also not bothered by the mystery of who-is-the-Dragon anymore. At first I thought it was rather ridiculous, but reading what non-readers have to say about it, it's clear that this is actually a success (i.e. people are in fact kept guessing). It may not be what the books did, but as a narrative thread, it actually works.

Anyway, I can feel the love of the showrunner(s) for the books. And I am thrilled that they managed to give us "moments" in the first few episodes. I don't remember the books managing that, really, so I'm willing to forgive some of their debatable choices if they can manage to keep on doing that. Was Nynaeve's "heal bomb" ridiculous? Probably. It was also super cool, and what finally sold me on Zoe Robins as Nynaeve (that, and her exchanges with Lan).
And this is where I end up truly disagreeing with Starkess. I think that all the main characters on WoT are already super cool, regardless of whether they're supposed to be Dragon-candidates or not. Nynaeve is the badass with issues that she's supposed to be. Egwene is still wondering if she should shoot for greatness (which is almost funny, considering her destiny). Matt is the ruffian with a heart of gold. Perrin is already struggling with his violent impulses (his inner wolf). Lan is the badass with a mysterious past. Etc... In just 4 episodes, the show did make these characters come to life. Only Rand is rather vanilla, as he should be. Everything is already in place for the characters and the plot to grow and expand far beyond what most shows can offer.
Based on what we've seen so far, the last episodes of this first season could be breathtaking. So far, it's been mostly exposition! I'm eager to see what the action will look like.

 

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LV - perhaps a different method of saying it will click. The physical world exists in 3 dimensional space, while the DOs prison is located in something like 4 dimensional space. Shayol Ghul is the location within 3D space closest to his prison, but the prison isn't actually there and if the breach in the prison were ever fully opened he would touch the entire world from everywhere and nowhere, not through an actual portal at SG.

Obviously it's possible for weaves formed within 3D space to patch up the bore, but they're specialized weaves. Balefire describes straight line within 3D space, it does not include any variation in the 4th dimension which would be required to reach the seals.

ETA: I'm not saying RJ literally meant it as 3D vs 4D, just that it's a conception of reality that could make what I'm saying understandable

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2 hours ago, Starkess said:

Anyway, I apparently am in the minority on this. I keep seeing people rave that episode 4 was what made them a believer in the show. I've seen people claim the show is better than the books. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did I watch the same show?!

 

I'm with you. I'm newish here and I don't really have much to add other than 'I hate it" and point at my avatar, so I don't post in here much, but if you are on crazy pills, we're taking the same pills.

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https://camestrosfelapton.wordpress.com/2021/11/30/the-wheel-of-time-adaptation-is-looking-good/

Quote

 

... found a lot of Robert Jordan’s written world and characters to be a bit flat — particularly in later books with the huge cast split across a continent that all felt very much the same. A dramatisation could fill out the flaws.

So far, the adaptation is doing that. A strong cast gives the characters more weight and also pushes them closer to how Jordan intended them to be (from context) rather than how they come over in the books. Nynaeve in particular is clearly meant to be a strong-willed character in the books but comes over as just whiny and annoying (your impression may differ) in Jordan’s dialogue. However, the show’s Nynaeve is a really compelling character played by New Zealander Zoë Robins, full of intensity and suspicion of what she (correctly) perceives as a hostile world.

It’s not without flaws. Along with the baggage it brings from the books (from cliched fantasy Romany-like people to gender essentialism), the first episode introduces a pointless fridging of a character that the plot doesn’t really know what to do with. It’s a very diverse cast but there are some potentially dubious choices in villains early on. ....

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't think you're crazy at all, FWIW.

Same here. . .

I'm probably late to this party, but I just saw the picture featuring Loial which was released a few days ago. WTF??? There's bad and then there's that!

Thank you for sharing RJ's notes, by the way! Slowly making my way through them. :)

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