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The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)


A True Kaniggit
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I'm not sure what that conversation is based on. Egwene never once considers gentling Rand. She hides him from the Aes Sedai in her own rooms to prevent that, her Accepted Tests are all about her not doing just that, she later takes the intuitive to actually try and teach him. Much later, when she's worried he may be Compelling sisters into serving him, gentling him still doesn't come up.

Not just that, but she isn't able to stomach gentling or conveniently killing Logain either, and arranges for his escape at considerable personal and political risk.

The only person worried she'd want to gentle him is Rand, and that's pretty clearly irrational and a product of his taint induced paranoia. 

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I'm feeling like the show is going to succeed at one element that I think was intended in the books but didn't land for me, possibly just because I'm a lot older than I was then haha. They pretty clearly foreshadowed a similar arc for Aram as in the books, and I never really felt much for him there - I think largely because I felt they were just naive and foolish.

The show already has me feeling that irrespective of what follows, just Aram abandoning the way of the leaf is a tragedy. Convincing someone who is supposed to believe in a better world that said better world is impossible is say. The world needs people who think it can be more. That's partly on the actor injecting more into Aram and partly on the conversation between Perrin and Ila with MDK selling the belief in the way.

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That Perrin/Ila conversation was really good, even the detail about her trying to pick up the spear. I agree with your take. The show really has to condense all these ideas into bite-sized conversations instead of the books being able to scatter it over several scenes. While the show sometimes feels rushed, sometimes it really nails it.

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I liked this episode. The events the characters experienced were mostly unrelated to the book events, but it served as a good vehicle to dump a lot of book lore. And the events portrayed ranged from silly but enjoyable to pretty good.

I think I'm mostly able to watch this show as intended: you turn off your mind, ignore the inconsistencies and general goofiness of it, and have a bit of mindless fun. This is basically a CW show, but one of the better varieties.

I think what I had been hoping for is that the show runners would take a flawed but good series, iron out the flaws and produce a really good series. That's not what happened here. The writers ironed out some of the flaws of the books, but created their own flaws. It somewhat balances out, although so far the books are quite a bit better than the show.

Anyway, the improvements the show has made are almost entirely with the characters themselves. Nynaeve in the books is an insufferable, shrill asshole until she gets married, and then she has a character arc as becomes a decent human being. I know some readers find her lack of self-awareness hilarious, but it was very annoying to me. So that's my favorite change.

At this point I like Mat in the show better than in the books. He's pretty close to the Mat at around book 3. It seems like that would ruin his character arc later down the line, but maybe the writers have something in mind.

Thom in the show is nothing like Thom in the books, and I was initially dismayed, but the character is well done and the actor is excellent, so I'm fine with this change. I can also see how this change might improve future storylines involving Thom.

Egwene and Rand are basically the same, but Egwene's character is more complex and charismatic in the show, while with Rand's character we have the opposite case, for the sake of maintaining the mystery of the DR'S identity.

I am curious if the show plans to throw out Robert Jordan's rankings of those who wield the One Power? Is it going to be changed so women and men have the same distribution of power, or if they maintain that the mean of men is still higher than the mean of women?

I would think they are going with the former, since they've said the the Dragon is the most powerful channeler ever, and also said that men and women have been the Dragon.

Edited by IFR
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That line about the spear was excellent. It'll land better after the crystal columns, too.

I love that the show is doing the foreshadowing the books do, but with the added visual element that make the in-show foreshadowing different than what the books have. 

3 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think what I had been hoping for is that the show runners would take a flawed but good series, iron out the flaws and produce a really good series. That's not what happened here. The writers ironed out some of the flaws of the books, but created their own flaws. It somewhat balances out, although so far the books are quite a bit better than the show.

That's about where I'm at. I'm beginning to go from feeling awful that the show isn't straight up great to accepting it for what it is and taking what enjoyment I can from it. 

3 minutes ago, IFR said:

I am curious if the show plans to throw out Robert Jordan's rankings of those who wield the One Power? Is it going to be changed so women and men have the same distribution of power, or if they maintain that the mean of men is still higher than the mean of women?

I would think they are going with the latter, since they've said the the Dragon is the most powerful channeler ever, and also said that men and women have been the Dragon.

You mean the former? I definitely think this is one place where they can literally take RJ at his (later) word and iron out the inconsistencies in the books. Men and women are functionally equal, and the strongest man and the strongest woman can do pretty much the exact same things to the exact same extent from a purely strength perspective, Talents, strength in the Five Powers and skill and knowledge complicating things from there, but to the advantage of neither men or women. 

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Finally caught up with this show. I watched the first two episodes last week, thought they were pretty bad, and was planning to stop there. But then a friend wanted to watch it, so I rewatched the first two with them (still pretty bad) and watched episodes 3-4. The quality of these last two episodes is definitely better - not great, but good enough that I'm willing to watch until the end of the season.

A few thoughts:

-Episode 1 features the most blatant use of fridging that I've seen in years. I still can't believe that they would give Perrin a wife just for... that.

-So far, my favourite parts of the show have been Mat and Rand in the village with the darkfriend innkeeper and Thom, and last episode's scenes with the Aes Sedai and Logain. The One Power effects are still very cheesy, but somehow the direction made it work better than in the village fight in episode one.

-I agree with @IFR above that the show has improved some of the book characters, like Thom and Nynaeve.

My least favourite parts of the show are everything involving Perrin and now, the Tinkers. I know a lot of this is from the books, but wow, that cheesy dialogue! Not to mention the costume design that looks like it came out of a middle school play.

Although the last two episodes were definitely better, overall I'd still say the pacing is a mess. It somehow feels both very slow paced in that little is actually happening, yet insanely fast in how quickly characters are introduced and come together and then separate. "Perrin, you just killed your wife and all of you just saw your village get burned down? Time to leave home forever, no time for discussion!" "Thom has joined the party! Thom has left the party!"

I do get that this book is hard to adapt. I loved The Eye of the World when I was fourteen. But in the end, it's a pretty unremarkable Tolkien ripoff novel. It might have been best to just start the show in media res. The main reasons against doing that are because you want to build the relationships between the characters who all start off in the Two Rivers... But the show hasn't done a great job with that anyway.

Edited by Caligula_K3
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21 hours ago, Wouter said:

I think so, too. Though I wonder if the tie to the dagger will remain at first, like in the books, to help drive the plot of season 2 as it did in book 2. 

Oh, I'm very sure they will scrap the mess that is book 2. If they are smart they will combine the Callandor stuff with the Seanchan thing and drop everything else. They cannot follow the silly book retcon of Rand not revealing himself at the Eye of the World, so the story from there is going to be dramatically different than in the books. I'd expect that Rand's camp will be at Fal Dara - if they are there - and Rand will leave them to go to Tear on his own.

And then we get introduced to Andor and the folks there on the way to Tear.

And hopefully they will also not just find the Horn of Valere - if that makes it into the show - but rather have to look for it.

21 hours ago, Wouter said:

With the shadow force hunting all the boys (and the girls, too, in the show), I like that they remember that the DO does not simply want the Dragon (and friends, even) dead. In the show, Nynaeve is probably alive because of that, and Dana also wanted Matt and Rand alive (and the others, too, should they have been there).

Yes, the villains actually not wanting to kill the good guys helps to explain why they don't kill them if they have a massive numerical advantage.

21 hours ago, Wouter said:

Edit: noticed the Fade grabbing one of Thom's (thrown) knives out of the air! Very book-like, as is Thom just reaching for more knives. They really pulled that scene off.

Yes, that was pretty good.

18 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Nope.  What to do about Rand falling to the Shadow is not in question, pre-emptively gentling him is, but that's not philosophy, that's strategy, and whether the White Tower has the ethical authority to gentle him without cause, merely because of what he might do.

The philosophical disagreement is on how the Pattern works.  That's metaphysics.  Can reduce it to attribution theory perhaps.

I'm not sure that would be a meaningful discussion. The lore in the books is never verified as being metaphysically correct. People talk about the Wheel, the Creator, the Dark One, various patterns, etc. ... but they don't know to what degree any of that is correct. In fact, they just tell themselves that the Dark One cannot shape the pattern, etc. If Rand or Lews Therin or any other powerful ta'veren joined the Shadow he would, effectively, shape the pattern, no? The same if all the people of the world joined the Shadow ... which they are, in the end, all free to do, right?

Not gentling Rand in light of him either turning evil or him turning mad would be stupid. If defeating the Dark One means the world has to be destroyed again then, perhaps, seeing the Dark One might be the saner course.

But in general this isn't a good conflict since Rand himself should wish that he is gentled before he goes so mad as to turn into Lews Therin 2.0.

20 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Did anyone find it weird Liandrin was willing to burn out keeping Logain shielded?

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Now, maybe she was pretending to disarm Moiraine or something, but if not, that's very weird behavior for a Black sister, especially Liandrin from the books.

Maybe they're complicating her backstory/character too, making her more than merely hungry for power.

Liandrin is already a much different - and much better - character than her namesake from the books. She is clearly older, more experienced and might turn out to be no Darkfriend in the show but rather a amalgamation of Elaida and Liandrin, i.e. a well-meaning but mistaken Red Sister, not the evil Black Ajah bitch Jordan created.

I could be wrong there, of course, but I'd be surprised if I were.

 

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I’ve thought of the combining of Liandrin and Elaida too since Liandrin basically does nothing of note after TDR. Elaida doesn’t do much of note (other than the foretelling of Rand) before TDR. I just expect the black ajah plot to be reduced. Although if they do reduce it they’ll have to give the girls something else to do. That being said right now Liandrin other than the main characters has gotten the most screen time so far and is a really good actress so it would be a shame to write her off so soon.

On the CW thing that’s been brought u I don’t think that’s fully fair. I think they could have mitigated it somewhat by just going with a bit more grungy wardrobe (like not all colour outfits for the Aes Sedai) but then again other than them it’s been pretty decent. But I think for the most part the WoT is very CW at its core. Most of the main characters are late teens or young 20s and are described over and over as being physically attractive. And then the main group of women are channellers who due to use of the oath rod keep their youthful look. (Or just stay looking young for ages because of the nature of the power) So as long as the older characters look a bit more rough I am fine with it.

Tbh my biggest concern right now is the world feels smaller than it should be. We got the old world shot at beginning of first episode and then some stuff with Perrin and Egwene travelling. The stuff with Ghaldean in episode four does leave me hopeful we will see some epic cities. It’s probably saving budget now to use it later since cities are expensive.

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4 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I've been enjoying these guys watch the show and comment while it's playing.  Here's the 4th episode starting from Rand and Mat going to sleep in the barn:
 

 

Thanks for sharing. Might actually watch these instead of trying to force myself to sit thru this show. 

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18 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

I’ve thought of the combining of Liandrin and Elaida too since Liandrin basically does nothing of note after TDR. Elaida doesn’t do much of note (other than the foretelling of Rand) before TDR. I just expect the black ajah plot to be reduced. Although if they do reduce it they’ll have to give the girls something else to do. That being said right now Liandrin other than the main characters has gotten the most screen time so far and is a really good actress so it would be a shame to write her off so soon.

I think they show is going to be much smarter and believable with the girls studying to be Aes Sedai, i.e. we might get a Hogwarts-like arc at Tar Valon featuring them.

And, of course, I'd expect that they all will become proper Aes Sedai rather than just Accepted before there the schism takes place - which could be somewhat more later in the show than in the books (or sooner, of TGH is, for the most part, not adapted).

The best way to tackle the Black Ajah would be to make them a very hidden, very subtle, very dangerous power behind the scenes. People who rarely show their hands but who are both deadly and unseen whenever they actually move.

Hence, I think the coup against Siuan should be the point where the show really starts to flesh out the Black Ajah, with the major evil Black Ajah character the show is going to focus on being Alviarin. I'd, of course, also like to see Verin but since she isn't really a villain she doesn't really count as Black Ajah.

Prior to that they could be hinted at, people could talk about them, but they should be more a specter behind the scenes, not something tangible and stupid - as they are in the books from the point Liandrin reveals her true allegiance in TGH and the subsequent flight of the thirteen from the White Tower.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I'm very sure they will scrap the mess that is book 2. If they are smart they will combine the Callandor stuff with the Seanchan thing and drop everything else. They cannot follow the silly book retcon of Rand not revealing himself at the Eye of the World, so the story from there is going to be dramatically different than in the books. I'd expect that Rand's camp will be at Fal Dara - if they are there - and Rand will leave them to go to Tear on his own.

And then we get introduced to Andor and the folks there on the way to Tear.

And hopefully they will also not just find the Horn of Valere - if that makes it into the show - but rather have to look for it.

 

I also wonder in what form the Horn of Valere would be in the show. The whole battle of Falme with the heroes was weird, as it seemed the actual battle on the ground ceased to matter in favour of a conflict between Ba'alzamon and Rand that also decided if the heroes destroyed the Seanchan or the other way round. That seems rather silly to film in that form.

I think book 2 and book 3 are likely to be more or less merged, most of it in season 2. Some elements of book 2 - like Selene and Rand's early leadership arc - should be probably be integrated, though.

The show can have it so that Rand is revealed to the Shienar army at Fal Dara, but they can also choose to not have him be recognized (as a channeler he could potentially destroy the Trolloc army from sufficient distance or from another position where the Shienarans can't see or at least recognise him). People like Agelmar would have grave suspicions though, if Moiraine takes her TR band in the Blight (leaked photos of Blight set pieces suggest she will) like in the book.

I don't think the show will have Rand fight Ba'alzomon three seasons in a row, though. But they could save that for Tear.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think they show is going to be much smarter and believable with the girls studying to be Aes Sedai, i.e. we might get a Hogwarts-like arc at Tar Valon featuring them.

And, of course, I'd expect that they all will become proper Aes Sedai rather than just Accepted before there the schism takes place - which could be somewhat more later in the show than in the books (or sooner, of TGH is, for the most part, not adapted).

 

It looks like Egwene may escape the Whitecloaks with Valda's Aes Sedai rings collection. If so, it gives her (and Elayne and Nynaeve) the possibility to illegally pose as full Aes Sedai later. Of course, that could be before the tower splits. In Rand's dream in episode 4, Ba'alzomon took Egwene who was calling him, so I suspect that part of book 2 (Rand being motivated to move somewhere in order to save Egwene, like from the Seanchan) may be kept. Then again, it could be merely a nod to bookreaders if that storyline is not followed.

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9 hours ago, IFR said:

Nynaeve in the books is an insufferable, shrill asshole until she gets married, and then she has a character arc as becomes a decent human being.

I always attributed her softening of character to her losing her block, and thus not needing to be so angry all the time. Granted, marriage will help with her overall happiness, but to me the important past was the surrender.

 

If Liandrin is going to be merged with another character, my bet is on Alviarin. I also think books 2 and 3 should be merged somehow. Not entirely sure how, but then again, I'm not a writer. The Great Hunt was not one of my favorite books at all and while the Horn plays a few roles down the line, I always thought it was cheesy. I like some of the flavor it gives and the fun (but minor) story beats, but overall I wouldn't mind losing it. I doubt they would go that far though.

Edited by Gertrude
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39 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I also wonder in what form the Horn of Valere would be in the show. The whole battle of Falme with the heroes was weird, as it seemed the actual battle on the ground ceased to matter in favour of a conflict between Ba'alzamon and Rand that also decided if the heroes destroyed the Seanchan or the other way round. That seems rather silly to film in that form.

Yes, there is no way the show is going to depict that. I think if they want to have the Horn there should be an actual hunt for it, not a hunt to get it back ... and it might make sense to have that at a later point, closer to the Last Battle.

39 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I think book 2 and book 3 are likely to be more or less merged, most of it in season 2. Some elements of book 2 - like Selene and Rand's early leadership arc - should be probably be integrated, though.

Lanfear should show up in season 2, of course, but it could just be just as well be during Rand's journey to Tear than the journey to Falme.

Rand's weirdo leadership thingy doesn't really make much sense to me - I'd go with two crucial steps in Rand's arc. His devastation about being a male channeler and the Dragon Reborn - which should be his own conclusion after the events at the Eye - should cause him to retreat from everybody - friends and allies alike. He runs away like he does in TDR in the beginning of season 2 and is inexplicitly drawn to (and/or pushed/guided by Lanfear) to Tear where he claims Callandor - and that is then the big and inevitable and final (!!!) revelation/proclamation that Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn. No further tests, challenges, revelations required.

And they should also make it his call whether to claim or reject Callandor, making the conscious decision to claim the sword also the conscious decision to accept who he is supposed to be.

39 minutes ago, Wouter said:

The show can have it so that Rand is revealed to the Shienar army at Fal Dara, but they can also choose to not have him be recognized (as a channeler he could potentially destroy the Trolloc army from sufficient distance or from another position where the Shienarans can't see or at least recognise him). People like Agelmar would have grave suspicions though, if Moiraine takes her TR band in the Blight (leaked photos of Blight set pieces suggest she will) like in the book.

Thinking about it - I think the show should really drop the entire Trolloc army attacking Shienar. That would just complicate things. They could make the Eye thing just about the Eye and the Forsaken they confront there - with the subsequent battle(s) being enough for Rand to be forced to consume all that power.

That would give the writers the advantage that most Aes Sedai - especially those not getting accurate reports about what transpired at the Eye - wouldn't have confirmation that Rand is the Dragon. And that, in turn, would allow the writers to postpone the coup against Siuan to a point in time when she and Moiraine openly support Rand as the Dragon Reborn - which would then take place some time after Rand claims Callandor.

Also, with the gang apparently going to Tar Valon in season we likely will see the Reds and their allies considering Nynaeve and/or Egwene as the more likely candidates for the Dragon Reborn, explaining why Rand can just leave for the Eye with the others, etc.

In the show, things would only turn ugly for Siuan and Moiraine when it is clear beyond a doubt that a man is the Dragon Reborn.

39 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I don't think the show will have Rand fight Ba'alzomon three seasons in a row, though. But they could save that for Tear.

Of course not, not for three seasons. That this guy seemingly dies two times in a row is pretty much unbearable in the books.

Still, though, I'd expect a conversation/confrontation between the two at the end of the first season where we also get information on Lews Therin and stuff. Although perhaps not a direct battle between Ishamael and Rand but rather a big dream world sequence or something along those lines.

The confrontation at Tear could then just cut Be'lal completely in favor for Ishamael being the only guy waiting for Rand there.

39 minutes ago, Wouter said:

It looks like Egwene may escape the Whitecloaks with Valda's Aes Sedai rings collection. If so, it gives her (and Elayne and Nynaeve) the possibility to illegally pose as full Aes Sedai later. Of course, that could be before the tower splits. In Rand's dream in episode 4, Ba'alzomon took Egwene who was calling him, so I suspect that part of book 2 (Rand being motivated to move somewhere in order to save Egwene, like from the Seanchan) may be kept. Then again, it could be merely a nod to bookreaders if that storyline is not followed.

The Seanchan are basically the the only element from book 2 of importance for the overall story. I guess we could get a variation of that plot with the girls, perhaps, going to a place where they invaded. But this should then be a plot unconnected to the Rand plot with the girls handling the Seanchan on their own.

Although my personal take on the Seanchan would not include them as a force who is pushed during their first landing. They would be a force so powerful that they stay from the beginning, slowly but surely conquering ever more territory - as they do in the book series later, too.

If you go with that take then you can postpone them to a later point or introduce them slowly by first showing how they conquer some islands, etc.

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I think the trauma for Egwene from being made damane is also pretty important at that point of the story, so I think you need to find a way to still include that in whatever you do. I don't think that can be pushed back significantly, it needs to be before the Wise Ones. Or you completely rewrite that part of her arc I guess.

I kinda want Be'lal to be kept just for one of the chump forsaken to be killed like the chump they are by Moiraine.

It's actually quite impressive how Jordan managed to make me so contemptuous of so many of the Forsaken. In some ways it undermines the threat, but I think as long as the majority aren't like this I feel like that's valuable, showing that so many of those who join the shadow are simply pathetic.

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I definitely think season 2 needs to have big chunks of books 2 and 3, but the way I'm sure they'll do it is by cutting a lot of the traveling. They're not going to try some bonkers way to combine the Horn, the Seanchan, the Black Ajah, the Whitecloaks, Be'lal, Tear, the Aiel, the Stone and Callandor.

Even if you cut two-three of those it's way too many things in one finale, and they can't really take away either the Seanchan or Callandor, or the Aiel, and anything mixing those three together this early is going to be an insanely massive change. 

The structure of the second and third book is too full of reunions and then splitting apart. You just cut that down, and you can do the big moments from both stories in a season.

Now if that's an 8 episode season, that's going to be hella cramped, so they could postpone the finale at Tear to season 3, perhaps? Do TGH and half or so of tDR. 

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I think the trauma for Egwene from being made damane is also pretty important at that point of the story, so I think you need to find a way to still include that in whatever you do. I don't think that can be pushed back significantly, it needs to be before the Wise Ones. Or you completely rewrite that part of her arc I guess.

If they keep the damane thing, it will come with the Seanchan. But they don't have to rush them, I think, considering how long it takes Jordan to get back to them.

I could even see them showing us the Empress and the Seanchan court back home before getting to invasion thingy. That could be interesting, too. As I said in my own thread, I think, the idea to have one of our guys be shipped to Seanchan as a damane could also be a very interesting idea.

Let's say we have Egwene be that character to be damane, become very powerful through the abuse and the forced learning process, and then she comes back with the Seanchan, breaks free of the chains, and ends up as the leader of the rebel Aes Sedai.

That would be a big diversion but certainly something that could work.

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I kinda want Be'lal to be kept just for one of the chump forsaken to be killed like the chump they are by Moiraine.

It's actually quite impressive how Jordan managed to make me so contemptuous of so many of the Forsaken. In some ways it undermines the threat, but I think as long as the majority aren't like this I feel like that's valuable, showing that so many of those who join the shadow are simply pathetic.

The Forsaken are a joke if they keep the Dark One as their personal resurrection machine.

They could keep roughly the same number if they stay dead when they are killed. But if Ishamael and the others come back, then they should be greatly reduced in number.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If they keep the damane thing, it will come with the Seanchan. But they don't have to rush them, I think, considering how long it takes Jordan to get back to them.

I could even see them showing us the Empress and the Seanchan court back home before getting to invasion thingy. That could be interesting, too. As I said in my own thread, I think, the idea to have one of our guys be shipped to Seanchan as a damane could also be a very interesting idea.

Let's say we have Egwene be that character to be damane, become very powerful through the abuse and the forced learning process, and then she comes back with the Seanchan, breaks free of the chains, and ends up as the leader of the rebel Aes Sedai.

That would be a big diversion but certainly something that could work.

The Forsaken are a joke if they keep the Dark One as their personal resurrection machine.

They could keep roughly the same number if they stay dead when they are killed. But if Ishamael and the others come back, then they should be greatly reduced in number.

Completely agree on that front, Be'lal gets balefired by Moiraine so he is Perma dead regardless which is part of why I want him to stay.

Aginor and Balthamel? The chumpest of the chump, if we have them then keep them dead. I'd personally drop the green man as well as he feels like part of a different story that never got told.

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