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The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)


A True Kaniggit

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I'm glad the series is doing well, even if I feel the show hasn't exactly been done well enough for me. Hopefully, the success let's Judkins ask for and receive more episodes from season 3, so the show can breathe and let there be more character time. 

That said, I'm excited to see Sophie Okonedo as Siuan, and given that Moiraine whispers her name when she's in her coma, I'm pretty sure they've kept their romance as ongoing in the show, which always felt like a wasted opportunity from RJ's end. Will be interesting to see how they handle the White Tower politics and strife between the Ajahs, as well.

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11 hours ago, Rhom said:

I have zero expectation they will do that. 

The less said about the first episode the better; but the line that stood out to me early was Liandrin to the male channeler where she said something along the lines of women being the only ones to touch the source and when men touch it they make it filthy.  The implication being that it’s the man that is tainted, not the source itself.

Maybe that’s just a throwaway line that meant nothing; maybe it’s just the man hating Red Ajah; but it makes me nervous.

Yeah I really think that's just the opinion of a bigoted red even before you take her deeper character into account, its not meant to be the thesis of the show or anything.

Not specifically to Rhom but everyone being concerned about this - On the whole I don't understand the concern around Moiraine believing the Dragon could be male or female, because ultimately it doesn't matter what she or anyone else thinks - the Dragon Reborn ultimately is a man and all the accompanying danger and ruin it brings. There are so many ways you can arrive at them misinterpreting the prophecy to think it could be a woman that's completely separate from the saidar/saidin divide and the taint, and you can still keep that core difference while exploring a less gender essentialist concept.

Personally I think them being wrong about the prophecy has some possible explanations that could greatly strengthen the story and foreshadow later developments. A black sister who had foretelling deliberately changing what the actual foretelling was in order to cause chaos for example could work well depending on what they did with it, but ultimately they can also simply be wrong. We get other examples of wrong interpretations of prophecy in the book even including the "hardest" type from Min. Some of the consequences from changes will take seasons to play out, we can't judge it all from the early episodes.

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

They haven't greenlit Season 3, but it's probable they've already "amberlit" it (ordered scripts and pre-production work) so they go into it full tilt once they decide to pull the trigger, which is what's caused the confusion. There's no hurry with that since they're still shooting Season 2 until at least February, I believe.

Hmm I wonder if I'm mixing it up with something else that's doing well and already had the go ahead for S3 or if I was just confusing the amber for green. I thought it was official confirmation of whatever it was, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else which would even be at the right point for this to happen. The Witcher would fit, can't think of anything else though.

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I went into work tonight and was really surprised when two of my coworkers were excitedly talking about this new series and how much they wanted to see the fourth episode. Neither even knew it was adapted from a 14 book series. One guy is nearly 60 and very far from a genre nerd.  

I personally was underwhelmed but man, these two were genuinely hyped. Similar to the early seasons of GoT, when I held back spoilers about Ned and the Red Wedding etc for years, it looks like it'll be really fun for me to be the nerdy encyclopedia at the restaurant. They were both Ooh'ing and Aah'ing at my spoiler free explanation of the different Ajahs.

Perhaps this will be well received by non-book readers. I'm somewhat optimistic it becomes pulpy Who's-a-Darkfriend fun once the show gets rolling.

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12 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

Perhaps this will be well received by non-book readers.

Well, it was well received (so far) by this non-book reader.  The less I know about the book stuff the more I can enjoy it and appreciate what is good about it.  I really do not care about the books and don't want to know about them. So I'll probably stop reading here any longer, as the discussions default to the books.  Not complaining or criticizing this -- it's natural, one would think, for passionate readers of the books.

O -- but by the way -- Amazon says this roll out was the most successful of any of their Original roll outs. Which figures, if even I, who bounced so hard off the books, happily watched!  They are very pleased.  

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From the AMA

  • Sounds like he's trying to increase the episode number per season.
  • WOT swear words / phrases will make it in, especially when Uno shows up.
  • deleted scenes coming in a few weeks, but there isn't any JudkinsCut that made it out of script form.
  • regarding rumours of the 4 ta'vern, he's justifying it as info from Moiraine's eyes and ears network.
  • "If it were just me making the show for myself, I'd honestly do the whole Perrin/Egwene ravens/stedding/Elyas sequence. That really hooked me to the books for the first time."
  • Obviously more to be seen from that Shadar Logoth sequence.
  • There is book 1 stuff in season two.  I'm betting Elyas, and Caemlyn.
  • Some book 2 and 3 stuff moved to later seasons.
  • "You'll hear the word saidin this season."
  • "Yeah, it was certainly a worry of mine that the show moves too fast, but I think that hopefully that will help give momentum to non-readers as they get through some of the stuff that is more similar to other fantasy projects and start to get to dip into the really unique WoT stuff. Throughout S1 as well, we do always try to find times to stop down and check in with the characters emotionally, as that's the most important thing to understanding the show."
  • "Literally, everyone in horse department knows everything about Bela. There are many elderly czech men who have an eye on Bela's long-term arc in the show and they don't even know what the Wheel of Time is."
  • "I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen."
  • plenty of easter eggs totally missed by the long term book fans.
  • Favorite book in WOT? "TSR. I love so many series -- LoTR, ASoIaF, Earthsea, right now I'm reading Malazan and Divine Cities."
  • Original script had Perrin kill the blacksmith he was apprenticing to, but it was his mom.
  • "The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate. I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that). It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago."
  • "Brandon's been amazing through this whole process. He's such a great collaborator, and I will be dead honest when I say that I do more of his notes percentage wise than any other single human being involved with the show."
  • Hinted the Tam fever dream will be seen in flashback.
  • "I'm not gonna lie. I was Rand Al'Thor for Halloween in 2019. And I was so much skinnier then that I actually FIT in Josha's costume."  :laugh:
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I re-watched episode 1. I have a more improved opinion of it. It has that awkward beginning with Moiraine's narration and a really rushed ending, but most of the stuff in between is fine. Perrin's wife arc still doesn't work, though. Why is there apparent tension between them? She seemed to have an issue with the Women's Circle thing, too. But no, I don't think she was a darkfriend; she does save Perrin from one of the Trollocs during the fight.

Some observations (some of these are really nitpicky :P)

  • I assume Liandrin linked with the other Aes Sedai when she gentled that man. She calls out “Sisters!” just before she did it. It’s disappointing from a lore immersive perspective that she didn’t shield the man first. She arrogantly walks towards the man. While we don’t see any weaves in that scene, we know that in the show Aes Sedai use a lot of hand motion, and there was none prior to that final moment.
  • A lot of viewers are saying how everyone looks too clean, but if you pay attention, it’s not quite true. It seems the show made a point to show that the clean people are the ones who have more prosperous lives – the al’Veres all look clean, and Rand and Tam. But the Cauthons are not. Mat’s mother is an alcoholic, driven to depression, and you see how bad she looks. Even her braid is practically nonexistent; the girls, too, are pretty dirty as a result of the parents’ neglect.
  • So, the night Moiraine arrives is raining heavily, but next morning all the dirt is dry. No mud. That is a major attention to detail failure.
  • Nynaeve is a lot nicer in the show. Her only loss of temper is directed at Moiraine and Lan. But she speaks gently to Perrin about his wife at the inn. And why is she cleaning stones?
  • I’m no expert on sheep and wool, but shouldn’t the sheep at the al’Thor farm be sheared? They were just talking about taking the wool to Tarren Ferry.
  • For non-book readers, I wonder if they know who can see Moiraine’s channeling. The show didn’t make it clear. But when she saves Nynaeve and Egwene from the Trolloc, it’s quite clear that Nynaeve could see. So that’s a nice touch. I could assume that all those scenes were from Moiraine’s POV afterwards, including when she heals Tam.
  • Too bad I spotted stones for other houses because Moraine ripping apart the inn to use its stones would have made more sense then. And it would have been more inline with the books. I hope she didn’t kill anyone who took shelter in the inn.
  • Why do Trollocs need torches? (Rhetorical question) The last shot of the episode shows that the Trollocs are quite literally going to skirt the town. lol
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7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Nynaeve is a lot nicer in the show.

So far this take on Nynaeve doesn't really feel very much like the Nyn from the books, personally. The actress hasn't really impressed me yet, but it's early days.

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

And why is she cleaning stones?

It's because of that scene we saw in earlier trailers, of a further part of the womanhood ceremony where we see Egwene at the pool, surrounded by women holding jars from which they'll pour dyes based on the seven Ajahs for some reason. They appear to have cut it, or will show it in flashback, but in any case, pretty sure that's why Nyn was scouring the stones.

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Speaking of the scene cleaning stones.  Nyneave says the Aes Sedai turned her teacher away because she was poor.  I hope it is later revealed that they turned her away because she was a wilder.

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11 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Speaking of the scene cleaning stones.  Nyneave says the Aes Sedai turned her teacher away because she was poor.  I hope it is later revealed that they turned her away because she was a wilder.

Moiraine didn’t really react to nynaeve’s accusation, but then she probably was not aware of this woman and does not yet know for sure why she was sent away. 

 

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Zoe Robins didn't impress so much in the first episode (she was okay, but not great, and the "Name yourself stranger" line was rough), but in the third she completely nailed it and I was much more impressed with her performance. She's a tough character to get right, to be fair.

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41 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Zoe Robins didn't impress so much in the first episode (she was okay, but not great, and the "Name yourself stranger" line was rough), but in the third she completely nailed it and I was much more impressed with her performance. She's a tough character to get right, to be fair.

I disagree. Nynaeve should be easy to get early on, for there is no depth to her character yet. She's just the bossy/bitchy type. She grows on you as time goes on, but it takes a number of books for that to happen.

Thus far, she's offered a lackluster performance. Only surpassed by the actor playing a piss-poor Lan. 

Loving Mat. Too bad that actor won't be returning. . .

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Some other things mentioned by Rafe Judkins in the Reddit AMA:

-there will be multiple Forsaken (including, seemingly, Lanfear, who "plays Selene", as he answered tongue-in-cheek to someone asking who the actress for Selene would be)

-Verin is in

-about mapping out the series in advance: "Yeah, I have an overall idea, but that's affected in a big way by a couple key things -- 1. episode number per season and 2. actor availability. A lot of the changes we've had to make to my initial plan for the show have been based on those two things."

-he had to fight Amazon and even other people on the show to keep the "weep for Manetheren" scene in

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

I disagree. Nynaeve should be easy to get early on, for there is no depth to her character yet. She's just the bossy/bitchy type. She grows on you as time goes on, but it takes a number of books for that to happen.

But Nyneave does get a moment in the books to show off more - the aftermath of the attack. When telling Rand she can't help Tam, that shows quite a bit of her deeply caring and practical side. It's there, it's just not as prominent as the anger and protectiveness. I liked that they showed her anger was directed at the outsiders, and that they showed the relationship between Nyneave and Egwene instead of just mentioning it. Also, her softness to villagers seem to serve the same purpose Mat's family and Perrin's wife does - accelerate her characterization.

Having said all that, Nyneave still isn't clicking with me personally, nor is Perrin. I think they've had too little to do to showcase themselves so far. The only reason Rand seems good to me is that Rand doesn't have much of a personality, really, so he's more defined by his journey and what you want to project on him.

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27 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I can't believe after all this time I'm just now seeing the Manetheren story as foreshadowing

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for Egwene's end.  I guess Rafe isn't changing that.

 

You and me both, the penny only dropped for me while watching as well lol.

LP - if you see characters as 2D cutouts embodying bossy bitch then I'm not surprised an adaptation which tries to make them more fully realized isn't to your taste.

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So, when I first started reading the series (and I'm old enough to have started when book 1 was released), I pronounced Nynaeve as "Nigh-neeve".  About halfway though the series, it changed in my head and I started thinking of it as "Nin-eh-vuh".  Turns out teenage me was correct, I guess.

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19 minutes ago, karaddin said:

LP - if you see characters as 2D cutouts embodying bossy bitch then I'm not surprised an adaptation which tries to make them more fully realized isn't to your taste.

How has anything that happened so far try to make Nynaeve and Lan more fully realized? Unless you've seen more than the first three episodes, I don't see where that is coming from.

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