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How does the Iron Bank (IB) get its money back?


Falcon2909
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>king acquires loan worth millions from IB
>king unable to pay back, refuses to, so IB funds rebellion
>rebels overthrow king, yet even they are unable to pay back the throne's loan, so IB funds another rebel leader
>and repeat...

 

How does the IB get its money back if they keep on funding rebellions? at that rate they would lose a lot of money and go bankrupt

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Essential reasons why they aren't getting their money back are because of the Iron Throne's inept management of its treasury with the king or queen in Cersei's case doing an inept job at managing the finances of the Seven Kingdoms and the crown treasury, as well of Littlefinger keeping the Iron Throne treasury into the ground with him encouraging the Iron Throne's disastrous mismanagement and falsifying the treasury accounts and books and him having left his men in charge so it will continue while he's in the Vale.

Only Tyrion has realized Littlefinger's falsification and sabotage but he was arrested for Joffrey's murder before he could cleanse things up.

Cersei's retarded financial politics and slighting of the Iron Bank have only worsened things up. 

The Iron Bank will have its money back only when the Iron Throne is ruled by a competent ruler with a competent master of coin who will undo the damage of his predecessors and make the finances functionnal and healthy again in the Seven Kingdoms. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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I assume that IB will never get their money back. Reason is that only candidate who is strong enough to gain and secure her throne is Dany and she will never pay back debts of Baratheons and Lannisters . Nobody else will have enough support to rule united Westeros. So if Dany and her dragons will die Iron Throne won't exist anymore. But instead there will be many very petty kingdoms.

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I think normally the threat of funding rebels is enough to convince most to pay them back. They have enough of a reputation about it that they have their own saying after all. Westeros is kind of exceptional both in the amount borrowed and just how hopelessly unstable the entire situation is. The other consideration is that they probably have other financial avenues of profit than just lending money.

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4 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

>king acquires loan worth millions from IB
>king unable to pay back, refuses to, so IB funds rebellion
>rebels overthrow king, yet even they are unable to pay back the throne's loan, so IB funds another rebel leader
>and repeat...

 

How does the IB get its money back if they keep on funding rebellions? at that rate they would lose a lot of money and go bankrupt

This is why I think the Iron Throne will collapse before the story ends. And I think this is what Illyrio has been after all this time.

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1 hour ago, Thandros said:

I think normally the threat of funding rebels is enough to convince most to pay them back. They have enough of a reputation about it that they have their own saying after all. Westeros is kind of exceptional both in the amount borrowed and just how hopelessly unstable the entire situation is. The other consideration is that they probably have other financial avenues of profit than just lending money.

I think the thing the bank leaders are forgetting is that Westeros is not Essos. In Essos, anyone can become a triarch or an archon. All they need is sufficient money and military backing to control the streets during election time. But the Iron Throne is hereditary, so only someone with the proper bloodline can gain the throne, and even then, it's iffy.

So right now, the IB is throwing even more money behind Stannis. If he dies, who's next? No matter who they choose, they will have to conquer each and every great house one by one, which is both expensive and time-consuming, with no guarantee of success.

Meanwhile, Illyrio has his man poised to take the throne. Is it likely that Aegon is going to honor the debts of usurpers and murderers? Not likely, especially since his strings are being pulled by Illyrio, who would love nothing better than to see the bank, and the whole Braavosi economy, go under.

Of course, the IB could always send an FM to take out Aegon. But then what? Either there will be an infant king under a regency, selected by Illyrio who will maintain the same non-payment policy, or the realm dissolves into another civil war, this time with no legitimate heir in sight -- and that will probably result in the continent dissolving back into seven independent kingdoms, none of which owes a dime to the Iron Bank.

So if Stannis fails, the IB is in a bad way no matter what happens.

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In my opinion Iron Bank and the Faceless Men are parts of the same organisation. So when someone is refusing to pay back what they own to the IB, the IB just sends a Faceless Man to kill the one who refused to pay, and then his successor will either pay, or he/she also will be killed by FM. Sooner or later there will be a person who will get the power and who will value his/her life more than money, and thus he/she will pay what is owned to the IB.

Cersei refused to pay, and even mocked Noho Dimitris (an envoy sent by the Iron Bank), so Noho is going to kill Tommen. Then Myrcella will become the Queen, and Cersei will either pay or will loose her last child too.

Additionally the IB had also sent an envoy to Stannis, and they also have one of their agents stationed in Stannis' household - Patchface is a Faceless Man. So Tycho Nestoris (IB's envoy) will make a deal with Stannis, that they will assist Stannis, and when he will become the King of the 7K, he will pay them what the Crown owns to IB. And if he will do the same thing as Cersei, if he will refuse to pay, then Patchface will kill Shireen.

And if Stannis even then won't pay, then they will kill him too, and then they will offer their assistance either to fAegon or to Dany. Or to Jon, because in my opinion there is a possibility that the Faceless Men know at least part of the truth about Jon's origin. The fact that Tycho Nestoris agreed to negotiate with Jon, is a sign that the IB are interested in Jon, and that they want to create a working partnership with him.

The thing is - the IB's motives are not focused solely on money-making business. Their main purpose is to serve to the Many-Faced God and to abide to his will. The Faceless Men, the Iron Bank and the Sealords of Braavos are acting with accordance of their interpretation of the prophecies about the future events. Somehow those three dragon eggs, that Elissa Farman stole from the Targaryens and brought to the Sealord, were part of the bigger picture. So to keep those eggs at Braavos, the Sealord axed half of the Iron Throne's debts to the Iron Bank. Then a different Sealord sent a Faceless Man (who was wearing Willem Darry's face) to Dragonstone, to get Viserys and Dany and to bring them to Braavos. Then that same Sealord gave three dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs - Penny and her family, and then Penny's father gave those eggs to Illyrio Mopatis, who several years later gave them to Dany as a wedding gift, and then Dany hatched those eggs. So the previous Sealord, the one who was rulling Braavos during Jaehaerys I's reign, knew (because of the prophecy) that those three eggs will play an important role in the future, so he made a deal with Jaehaerys and was allowed to keep those eggs at Braavos.

Thus for the Iron Bank it isn't necessary to get back their money, because they have a lot more. And they have other goals, which are more important to them than gold. So if someone who owns them, can't pay back with money, then the FM and the IB can ask that person to pay back in deeds and favours. For example, could be that the Sealord/FM/IB wants Dany and Jon to become the Queen and the King of the 7K, so they will ask Stannis to back off. And if he will agree to give up his claim over the Iron Throne, then the IB will forgive his debt to them.

Same thing could be applied in other cases - if the people that borrowed money from the Iron Bank don't want to pay back, the IB will send an assassin to kill that fraudster, and his/her successor will either pay, or will die too. And in those cases when the debtors do want to pay back, but can't, the Iron Bank can take from them other things instead of money. As I already said - it could be favours, certain deeds, or the FM can request the debtor's family member (or the debtor himself) to join the Guild, and to become the servant of the Many-Faced God, and that way to work off the debt. Eitherway - "The Iron Bank will have its due".

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I think people don't often consider the fact that the bank might simply write off the debt. 

You can't squeeze blood from a stone. If the money isn't there then it isn't there. At a certain point the bank would have to accept they're not getting paid. 

The Iron Bank getting its "due" may not be simply monetary. They may decide to destroy the Iron Throne as an institution to make an example of what happens if you don't pay them back. 

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The Iron Bank has its hands in far more than rebellions and part of the alliance with Stannis is to repay the crown's debt.  But prior to that Tycho Nestoris took on a loan for the Night's Watch based upon Jon Snow's plans and agreements.  Paramount in this loan is the need for food and Jon has this very bright idea to build a glass house like that at Winterfell.  Perhaps they back good ideas in communities that they believe could thrive.

 

And spies.   The Iron bank has lots of spies.  

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Here's a question for the members who have some expertise in the history of the medieval world here on Earth. When I read about the Iron Bank, I always wonder: is it based on a real-life example? Have there been actual cases when a bank promoted a rebellion because some king wasn't paying his debt? If so, how did it work out?

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31 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Here's a question for the members who have some expertise in the history of the medieval world here on Earth. When I read about the Iron Bank, I always wonder: is it based on a real-life example? Have there been actual cases when a bank promoted a rebellion because some king wasn't paying his debt? If so, how did it work out?

Braavos and the Iron Bank in general seem to be modeled loosely on Venice and the Italian banks of the late medieval and Renaissance.  

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4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Braavos and the Iron Bank in general seem to be modeled loosely on Venice and the Italian banks of the late medieval and Renaissance.  

Those banks tended to get screwed over a lot by the royals they lent money to, though. I remember reading about how one Italian bank went under because Henry VIII refused to pay back any of his debts to them, and the bank had no way to force him to do it.

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On 11/22/2021 at 9:11 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Essential reasons why they aren't getting their money back are because

So if there is never a competent ruler, the IB will never gets it money back? How else can they get their money back?

 

On 11/23/2021 at 1:35 AM, John Suburbs said:

This is why I think the Iron Throne will collapse before the story ends. And I think this is what Illyrio has been after all this time.

How does Illyrion benefit from the Iron Bank collapsing?

 

On 11/23/2021 at 1:45 AM, Megorova said:

In my opinion Iron Bank and the Faceless Men are parts of the same organisation. So when someone is refusing to pay back what they own to the IB, the IB just sends a Faceless Man to kill the one who refused to pay, and then his successor will either pay, or he/she also will be killed by FM. Sooner or later there will be a person who will get the power and who will value his/her life more than money, and thus he/she will pay what is owned to the IB.

Cersei refused to pay, and even mocked Noho Dimitris (an envoy sent by the Iron Bank), so Noho is going to kill Tommen. Then Myrcella will become the Queen, and Cersei will either pay or will loose her last child too.

Additionally the IB had also sent an envoy to Stannis, and they also have one of their agents stationed in Stannis' household - Patchface is a Faceless Man. So Tycho Nestoris (IB's envoy) will make a deal with Stannis, that they will assist Stannis, and when he will become the King of the 7K, he will pay them what the Crown owns to IB. And if he will do the same thing as Cersei, if he will refuse to pay, then Patchface will kill Shireen.

patchface and noho are fm?

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On 11/22/2021 at 4:54 AM, Falcon2909 said:

>king acquires loan worth millions from IB
>king unable to pay back, refuses to, so IB funds rebellion
>rebels overthrow king, yet even they are unable to pay back the throne's loan, so IB funds another rebel leader
>and repeat...

 

How does the IB get its money back if they keep on funding rebellions? at that rate they would lose a lot of money and go bankrupt

What leads you to believe that it will get its money back?  Financial institutions collapse all the time for extending questionable loans.  What was the collateral?  What was promised by Robert to back the loan?  If the Nights Watch has held steady for thousands of years could collapse, why not a bank?  The Iron Bank will collapse.

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1 hour ago, Falcon2909 said:

patchface and noho are fm?

I think so. I'm pretty sure about this. I think that Patchface is a fake identity, same as was Jaqen, and that Noho could be Noho, it could be his real face and identity, though he is simultaneously an agent of the Iron Bank and the agent of the Faceless Men Guild. Because the IB and the House of Black and White are parts of the same organisation, which is ruled by the Sealord of Braavos. You can read more about this here:

Iron Shell part 1/4. The hydra has three heads

If Tommen will die falling out of the window, and Balerion the Cat will be involved in his death, which will look like an accident, but actually will be an assassination (because the current Sealord of Braavos/Arya's kindly man/the leader of the Faceless Men and the head of the Iron Bank, is a cat-skinchanger, and Balerion the Cat is one of his vessels), then you'll see that I was right.

In my opinion the Iron Bank won't collapse, ever, because they are not merely a financial institution, they are a part of a religious cult, which had existed for thousands of years, and even outlived the Valyrian Dragonslords (probably the FM are also behind the Doom of Valyria). They control the economy of the entire world, so them not getting back a few million golden dragons, that the 7K owns them, won't in any way harm the IB.

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2 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

How does Illyrion benefit from the Iron Bank collapsing?

The IB's gold backs the iron coin, the proxy currency of Braavos. So if the bank goes down, the Braavosi economy goes with it. That would allow Pentos to tear up the peace treaty it signed under dubious circumstances in their last war, which basically turned Pentos into a vassal state of Braavos. With Pentos regaining its autonomy, it will be able to raise its own army and navy once again, and rich men like Illyrio will get even richer selling slaves and basically dominating trade in the northern Narrow Sea.

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On 11/22/2021 at 4:54 AM, Falcon2909 said:

>king acquires loan worth millions from IB
>king unable to pay back, refuses to, so IB funds rebellion
>rebels overthrow king, yet even they are unable to pay back the throne's loan, so IB funds another rebel leader
>and repeat...

 

How does the IB get its money back if they keep on funding rebellions? at that rate they would lose a lot of money and go bankrupt

Funding war is only a small part of their loan business.  Most of their loans are to anyperson who needs cash to build homes, businesses, ships, and other needs.  

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15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The IB's gold backs the iron coin, the proxy currency of Braavos. So if the bank goes down, the Braavosi economy goes with it. That would allow Pentos to tear up the peace treaty it signed under dubious circumstances in their last war, which basically turned Pentos into a vassal state of Braavos. With Pentos regaining its autonomy, it will be able to raise its own army and navy once again, and rich men like Illyrio will get even richer selling slaves and basically dominating trade in the northern Narrow Sea.

I assume that Pentos do a lot of trade with Braavos. So collapsing economy of Braavos would cause huge problems to those businessmen who trade with B. After all their customers cannot pay their bills anymore. It is even possible that economies of Braavos and Pentos are so connected that lack of that trade will cause massive problems to whole economy of Pentos. So there should be many very angry people in Pentos if that trade with Braavos disappears.

If those angry people even suspect that Illyrio had caused that collapse of trade and economy he would either be killed or he would only lose all his assets and becomes persona non grata in Pentos.

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