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What relation did Robert and Stannis Baratheon had with the Targaryens before the tourney of Harrenhal and the rebellion ?


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Before the tourney of Harrenhal that saw Rhaegar crown Lyanna Stark as the queen of love and beauty, Rhaegar taking Lyanna with him willingly or not, and the rebellion that ensued what do you think what was the relation between the Baratheon brothers and their distant royal cousins ?

Were there already some internal tensions following Steffon and Casanna Baratheon's death following their mission to Essos, or were they at least in cordial terms, or were they indifferent to each other ?

Does Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna say something about his relation with Robert ?

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this whole subject would go under the category of speculation... we don't know much about those relations.

If I had to guess , I would say at least Robert had a bit of grudge over his parents' death towards Rhaegar. it definitely was not obvious and maybe Robert didn't even confess that to himself. but it seems he was somewhat quick to hate Rhaegar so much and assume the worst about him. even more than Aerys. and I don't think it was all about Lyanna. his parents were on that ship to find cousin Rhaegar a bride after all. 

still, what I am more curious about is their relationship before Steffon's death. I've always wondered why didn't Steffon send Robert to squire for Rhaegar. Tywin , Steffon and Aerys's other war time friend, was sure trying to send his own son to get close to the crown prince. Steffon and Aerys seemed to be on good terms and unlike Tywin, they clearly never had a fall out of any sort. it's understandable for Steffon to send his heir as ward to a great lord but he could surely send him to kingslanding afterwards. it seems Robert was away from his relations for most of the time, though... did he and his cousin had some sort of quarrel that made Robert stay away? or am I just reading too much into it?

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First of all - Robert and Stannis were not a distant cousins to Rhaegar, they were his second cousins. Robert's paternal grandmother - Rhaelle Targaryen, was a sister of Jaehaerys II and Queen Shaera, so Robert's father - Steffon, was a first cousin to both Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. Aside from his sister-wife, after the Burning of Summerhall, Aerys' closest relative was Steffon Baratheon. So they were not only first cousins, they were also very close. When they were children, the three of them - Aerys, Steffon and Tywin, were best friends, and they had good relationship.

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ASOS, Davos V (Stannis) - “It would be a wondrous thing to see stone come to life,” he admitted, grudging. “And to mount a dragon… I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome.” Stannis snorted. “Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who’d so impressed us.” His fingers touched the surface of the table, tracing a path lightly across the varnished hills. “Robert took the skulls down when he donned the crown, but he could not bear to have them destroyed."

Robert was born in 262, so his first visit to court had occurred in 267 or 268. Rhaegar at that time was 8 or 9 years old. His mother - Queen Rhaella, had a miscarriage in 263, then in 264, and in 267 she had a stillborn daughter. So I think that Aerys was overprotective of Rhaegar, and didn't allowed him to hang out with the other kids. Thus Rhaegar and Robert never were close, like their fathers were in their youth. Furthermore, Robert in his early childhood lived at Storm's End, and then was fostered at the Eyrie, so him and Rhaegar barely knew each other, prior they met at the tournament at Storm's End, which was held in 278, shortly prior to Steffon and Cassana's departure to Volantis, to find there a bride for Rhaegar.

So at the time when Robert and Rhaegar were officially introduced, Rhaegar was 18-19 years old, and Robert was 15-16 years old and just recently became a knight. At that tournament Robert's father was defeated by young Rhaegar, and Robert was defeated by Barristan Selmy, who was escorting Rhaegar on that visit to Storm's End. So it's obvious that Robert disliked Rhaegar from then on, because Rhaegar was superior to him in all aspects.

Robert, even at that young age, already was a drunkard and a horndog, and Rhaegar was this Prince Charming and a Real Gentleman. Robert was a baudy loud pig made from strow, and Rhaegar was a delicate flower made from diamonds. Even if Steffon said to Robert that him and Rhaegar should get along, that Robert should become Rhaegar's close friend, like he was with Aerys at the time of their youth, it's likely that Robert just couldn't approach Rhaegar. Because Rhaegar had kept a distance from all the others, excluding Arthur Dayne. Robert was Rhaegar's second cousin, and Arthur was Rhaegar's third of fourth cousin, or second cousin once or twice removed, one of those options (one of Arthur's ancestors was a sibling of Dyanna Dayne - Rhaegar's great-great-grandmother). But despite Arthur being a more distant cousin to Rhaegar than Robert was, they had more similar personalities, and thus they were close, and Robert wouldn't have been able to compete with Arthur for Rhaegar's friendship. So, despite them being bloodrelated, they had nothing in common, and the two of them had too different personalities to get along.

Add to this the fact that Robert's parents died, when they were on a mission to find a bride for Rhaegar, so it's likely that Robert blamed Rhaegar and Aerys in his parents' death. So the fire (of Robert's hate towards Rhaegar) was already burning, even before the beginning of the Rebellion. Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna just added more fuel into that fire, and gave Robert an excuse to attack the Targaryens.

Edited by Megorova
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Steffon Baratheon, Stannis and Robert's father, was a close friend of Aerys and his cousin on his mother's side, but he seemed not to live at court but to visit there occasionally.

Stannis remembers that when he was 4 or 5 years old his father took him and Robert to court, but it was Tywin who was serving on the throne 'cause Aerys had cut himself. Stannis doesn't mention meeting Rhaegar. Since the prince had been an only child for so long and Robert and Stannis were his only cousins, Aerys or Steffon could had tried to develop a friendship between the boys. But we don't know of any such action.

The kids were 4-5 years apart. Robert was raised at the Eyrie, Stannis at the Stormlands and with Steffon's death and Aerys growing madder I imagine their relationship with the royal family has gotten even more superficial.

As for any feelings of resentment Robert and Stannis might feel 'cause their parents died on the quest to find a bride for Rhaegar nothing suggests that. But who knows?

I believe they barely knew each other. Rhaegar had always been reserved and had few close friends. His relationship with his cousins must have been like that of any other nobleman: cold and distant.

Edited by Odej
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40 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

it definitely was not obvious and maybe Robert didn't even confess that to himself.

Why wouldn't he??

What's with those deep secret feelings and thoughts Robert ought to have lol? His reasons to resent Rhaegar are the Targaryens overall are clear and perfectly laid out.

Why would neither Robert nor Stannis ever bring up a hidden resentment if there ever was one? 

 

42 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

but it seems he was somewhat quick to hate Rhaegar so much and assume the worst about him.

Rhaegar hit on his fiancee in front of him... He'd later would go on and kidnap her, which ended in her death... 

 

If it wasn't for Rhaegar's one line in Affc, which was pretty Hol up all things considered, in which he calls Robert "our cousin". It didn't even occur to me that either branch had any relationship at all. Neither the Baratheons nor the remaining Targaryens in exile ever comment on that. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

still, what I am more curious about is their relationship before Steffon's death. I've always wondered why didn't Steffon send Robert to squire for Rhaegar.

Unless he was as power hungry as Tywin, it seems a bad decision to take Robert from an environment he had come to love and be familiar with.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So at the time when Robert and Rhaegar were officially introduced, Rhaegar was 18-19 years old, and Robert was 15-16 years old and just recently became a knight. At that tournament Robert's father was defeated by young Rhaegar, and Robert was defeated by Barristan Selmy, who was escorting Rhaegar on that visit to Storm's End. So it's obvious that Robert disliked Rhaegar from then on, because Rhaegar was superior to him in all aspects.

Superior in what exactly?

Jousting? Robert didn't care about it, he prefered meeles.

'Cause Rhaegar had defeated his father and his kingsguard defeated Robert himself? I don't think so. It was just a sport, nobody was seriosly injuried. Robert held no grudge against Ser Barristan and many others who had fought for Rhaegar in a war where Robert was against the prince and prevented the knight from being slain.

'Cause Rhaegar was a gentleman, bookish, singer who didn't like fight? This goes against everthing Robert liked and believed a man should be. Robert was more likely to mock Rhaegar's personality than to feel that the prince was superior to him 'cause that.

Edited by Odej
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20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why wouldn't he??

What's with those deep secret feelings and thoughts Robert ought to have lol? His reasons to resent Rhaegar are the Targaryens overall are clear and perfectly laid out.

Why would neither Robert nor Stannis ever bring up a hidden resentment if there ever was one? 

:) I don't mean as in secretly brooding and/or plotting !

it's quite simple to develop some unjustified resentment towards Rhaegar for the Baratheons. their parents died traveling back from a mission to find a wife for this guy ordered by his father. neither Rhaegar nor Aerys were responsible for the storm that killed Steffon and his wife. but it's not far fetched to think Robert or Stannis partly blamed Aerys and Rhaegar for that journey and the incident ... even if they logically do not want to. then, some years pass and this allegedly noble good guy gets married to someone else  and has kids; yet, it's said that he suddenly had kidnapped Bob's fiancée and the love of his life. with all the praise surrounding Rhaegar you'd think Bob ,Rhagar's cousin who at the very least knows Rhaegar more than someone like Brandon Stark, might have some hesitation to believe Rhaegar has done such a horrible deed . but there's a chance that Robert already misliked Rhaegar at some level and thus somewhat quickly believed the worst... 

I don't really suggest any mystery (though a childhood jealousy or even quarrel would be cool!) but Robert's initial negative feelings towards Rhaegar would give him more depth.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

If it wasn't for Rhaegar's one line in Affc, which was pretty Hol up all things considered, in which he calls Robert "our cousin". It didn't even occur to me that either branch had any relationship at all. Neither the Baratheons nor the remaining Targaryens in exile ever comment on that

yes I used to think the same way.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Unless he was as power hungry as Tywin, it seems a bad decision to take Robert from an environment he had come to love and be familiar with.

it has nothing to do with being power hungry . we are talking about a guy who sent his little son away from his brothers and mother to be raised in a foreign place just because the foster father was a great lord . it's not cruel to summon an older Robert to send him to royal close relatives to be on friendly terms with the future king!

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22 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

it's quite simple to develop some unjustified resentment towards Rhaegar for the Baratheons

Why Rhaegar?? He wasn't the one sending their father to the mission.

 

 

24 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

neither Rhaegar nor Aerys were responsible for the storm that killed Steffon and his wife. but it's not far fetched to think Robert or Stannis partly blamed Aerys and Rhaegar for that journey and the incident ... even if they logically do not want to. then, some years pass and this allegedly noble good guy gets married to someone else  and has kids;

I mean, it's perfectly possible that the Baratheons could develop some resentment. What's not possible or logical is that they never brought that up. Stannis blames the gods for the accident and Robert, who complains about the Targaryens a good lot, never brings the incident up at all.

What's refraining them from expressing that resentment?? It's also curious that neither Ned, nor Stannis, nor Cat, nor Cressen had much to say about the relationship between the brothers and the Targs prior the Tourney of Harrenhall. 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yet, it's said that he suddenly had kidnapped Bob's fiancée and the love of his life. with all the praise surrounding Rhaegar you'd think Bob ,Rhagar's cousin who at the very least knows Rhaegar more than someone like Brandon Stark, might have some hesitation to believe Rhaegar has done such a horrible deed .

- Rhaegar was by all accounts hitting on his fiancee on his very face lol. Why would Robert not believe he was capable of taking her?

- Nowhere it's said that Robert and Rhaegar knew each other much. 

 

- The entire Realm, friends and foes, believed Rhaegar had carried Lyanna off. Barristan who is a fan as you can get believe so, without believing him a Monster, why is Robert required to think otherwise??

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

but Robert's initial negative feelings towards Rhaegar would give him more depth.

Hmmm not really but okay. Robert acknowledging that the accident was an accident is just as good. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

it has nothing to do with being power hungry . we are talking about a guy who sent his little son away from his brothers and mother to be raised in a foreign place just because the foster father was a great lord . it's not cruel to summon an older Robert to send him to royal close relatives to be on friendly terms with the future king

You compared him with Tywin, I'm stating Tywin's reasons.

Martin has go on record comparing fostering with boarding schools. It usually doesn't end abruptly and by all accounts Robert loved it in the Vale. It's actually pretty cruel and unnecessary. 

But then again, Steffon never cared to have his kids close to their royal kin. Stannis never was sent there anyway.

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1 hour ago, Odej said:

Superior in what exactly?

In everything?

He was more goodlooking than Robert. And while the women were not against having a fling with Robert, for them Rhaegar was like an idol - worshiped. For example - compare what Cersei thought and said about Robert, and what she thought and said about Prince Rhaegar. She adored and idolised him.

Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert. As I said - Robert was more like a pig, than like a Prince. Comparing them is the same as comparing a wild boar and an Arabian thoroughbred stallion. Or a domestic pig and a deer. They are in totally different ligues. Like glass and a diamond.

Rhaegar was loved and highly respected by his peers. He was an honorable and a responsible person. While Robert was a two-faced liar, and a buffoon. Also - how many children did he had? How many women did he seduced, used, and then left? He didn't took responsibility for either of his children, not even Mya Stone. Robert had so many negative personality traits, that he was a total failure as a human being. Even his best friend - Ned, eventually became disgusted with Robert and his deeds.

And Robert's own brothers weren't even sad when he died. So that actually says a lot about what kind of person he really was.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

What's with those deep secret feelings and thoughts Robert ought to have lol? His reasons to resent Rhaegar are the Targaryens overall are clear and perfectly laid out.

Why would neither Robert nor Stannis ever bring up a hidden resentment if there ever was one? 

Because Robert was that kind of person - if there was happening something that he didn't liked, while being in public he just laughted it off, pretended that he isn't bothered by what happened.

Quote

As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth. - TWOIAF, The Year of the False Spring.

The same kind of thing was when he was called an Usurper. In public he laughed it off, and pretended that he doesn't care about what people say, but then to his confidants, like Ned or Jon Arryn, he complained, and complained, and complained.

The same thing was when he found out that Viserys is planning to make an aliance with the Dothraki, and when he found out that Dany is pregnant. He pretended that he isn't bothered by the continued existance of the Targaryen-duo, but then in private with Ned shared that he wants to send an assassin to kill Dany and her child. Because he was actually bothered by the possibility that Dany will come to the 7K and will claim the Throne.

Also, after the Rebellion he made Stannis the Prince of Dragonstone, to spite him and to punish him for failing to capture the Targaryen-duo. By assigning that title to Stannis, Robert robbed him of the title the Lord of Stormlands. And the title of the Dragonstone's Prince was only temporal, until Robert had his first child, and then Stannis remained with nothing. Robert did that on purpose, to punish Stannis, though he never admitted it.

So Robert did had those deep secret feelings of resentment against multiple people, even though he always pretended that he is a joyous and happy-go-lucky kind of person. He was like a wormy apple - ripe and lustrous on the outside, but rotten and worm-eaten on the inside.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

In everything?

He was more goodlooking than Robert. And while the women were not against having a fling with Robert, for them Rhaegar was like an idol - worshiped. For example - compare what Cersei thought and said about Robert, and what she thought and said about Prince Rhaegar. She adored and idolised him.

Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert. As I said - Robert was more like a pig, than like a Prince. Comparing them is the same as comparing a wild boar and an Arabian thoroughbred stallion. Or a domestic pig and a deer. They are in totally different ligues. Like glass and a diamond.

Rhaegar was loved and highly respected by his peers. He was an honorable and a responsible person. While Robert was a two-faced liar, and a buffoon. Also - how many children did he had? How many women did he seduced, used, and then left? He didn't took responsibility for either of his children, not even Mya Stone. Robert had so many negative personality traits, that he was a total failure as a human being. Even his best friend - Ned, eventually became disgusted with Robert and his deeds.

And Robert's own brothers weren't even sad when he died. So that actually says a lot about what kind of person he really was.

 

This sounds more like an outsider's opinion than something Robert himself would think. As I said in the other comment, Robert didn't like most of the things Rhaegar liked and his own personality was very different from the prince. There's no reason for Robert to feel that Rhaegar was superior to him for being everything Robert wasn't (and as far as we know, never wanted to be) and start having bitter feelings toward Rhaegar for that.

Until the tourney and the rebellion Robert's life was all about fighting, drinking, getting laid, being friends with Ned and Jon Arryn and being in love with Lyanna and in none of those things was Rhaegar a threat so what reason was there for Robert to be bothered if Rhaegar was more handsome, intelligent and chivalrous?

At that time Robert was lord of Stormlands, an excellent warrior and commander. He might not be a scholar, but he was charismatic and inspire loyalty. His friends and most of his vassals loved him and he didn't seem to want anything else.

Until the tourney and the rebellion what threat Rhaegar represented to him?

Edited by Odej
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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Why Rhaegar?? He wasn't the one sending their father to the mission.

"unjustified" I said . he was the reason that a voyage was needed. his father commanded it since he needed a wife.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I mean, it's perfectly possible that the Baratheons could develop some resentment. What's not possible or logical is that they never brought that up. Stannis blames the gods for the accident and Robert, who complains about the Targaryens a good lot, never brings the incident up at all.

technically that incident wasn't Targ's doing. so though it's totally possible that Bs had negative feelings towards Targs,  they don't say the reason is that ; instead , they put forward a terrible action that Targs have actually done and relate their hatred to those actions. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

- Nowhere it's said that Robert and Rhaegar knew each other much. 

not too much . but surely wayyyy more than how much a Stark who had usually hung out north of the Neck would. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

- The entire Realm, friends and foes, believed Rhaegar had carried Lyanna off. Barristan who is a fan as you can get believe so, without believing him a Monster, why is Robert required to think otherwise??

we know what the entire realm thinks after 15 years that Rhaegar has died and so has Lyanna . the natural reaction people would have upon hearing " Rhaegar Targaryen (the noble responsible prince) has abducted Lyanna Stark " is " what?! Rhaegar?! kidnapping?! Rape?!" . because it doesn't fit his character .. even years after his death the way someone like Barristan thinks is full of language of love suggesting a mutual relationship. it's possible that at first these people didn't even believe Brandon's accusations and after years had figured it was love . Robert thought it was abduction and rape and not with any hesitation. of course Aerys and Robert's ego both had played their part there. but if Robert had any respect or love for Rhaegar  , it would have given him pause.

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert. As I said - Robert was more like a pig, than like a Prince. Comparing them is the same as comparing a wild boar and an Arabian thoroughbred stallion. Or a domestic pig and a deer. They are in totally different ligues. Like glass and a diamond.

god this was funny!:D as ruthlessly as you described poor Bobby , I think you're largely right in this comparison :) 

I think it could be possible , given we some day realize that Steffon had admired Rhaegar a lot and had pushed Robert to be more like him. Robert could be jealous of Rhaegar and I like the idea. though , since they never seem to have been around each other and everything that @Odej explained , I wouldn't put too much weigh on it. 

Edited by EggBlue
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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Because Robert was that kind of person - if there was happening something that he didn't liked, while being in public he just laughted it off, pretended that he isn't bothered by what happened.

But... Why wouldn't he say something in private?? Unlike Robert's beef over the crowning of Lyanna, in which we're told that he was in fact upset. There's no instance about him being mad about the shipwreck.

And there's little holding him back once he's King, he doesn't answer to anyone and he already publicly insults the Targaryens... Why no one mentions him blaming them for his  parents' accident?

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

The same kind of thing was when he was called an Usurper. In public he laughed it off, and pretended that he doesn't care about what people say, but then to his confidants, like Ned or Jon Arryn, he complained, and complained, and complained

Not true... Aren't you letting your bias against the character colour the facts of the books?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He pretended that he isn't bothered by the continued existance of the Targaryen-duo,

Again, you're making things up. 

Robert was always wary and he only left them live because he thought they wouldn't be a threat to his rule, once they start becoming one, he worries again.

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Also, after the Rebellion he made Stannis the Prince of Dragonstone, to spite him and to punish him for failing to capture the Targaryen-duo.

Your words clash directly with Martin's own version of the events.

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

By assigning that title to Stannis, Robert robbed him of the title the Lord of Stormlands.

Stannis never had such title. It was Robert's and Robert's only to give. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

And the title of the Dragonstone's Prince was only temporal, until Robert had his first child, and then Stannis remained with nothing. Robert did that on purpose, to punish Stannis, though he never admitted it.

Stannis was not Castellan of Dragonstone. He was Lord of Dragonstone.

The title was in perpetuity.

If you have this basic facts wrong because of your bias. There's little we can discuss so let's leave it at that.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

"unjustified" I said . he was the reason that a voyage was needed. his father commanded it since he needed a wife.

But his father commanded it...

Sounds kinda convenient not gonna lie.

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

technically that incident wasn't Targ's doing. so though it's totally possible that Bs had negative feelings towards Targs,  they don't say the reason is that ; instead , they put forward a terrible action that Targs have actually done and relate their hatred to those actions.

And never talk about them again... Even long after the Targaryens have been banished and destroyed...

So, it's logical that Stannis voices his complains against the *gods* even tho the ones he actually blames are the Targaryens yet for some strange taboo thing, he doesn't mention it.

It's also perfectly logical that Robert, who goes in public and private rants whenever a Targaryen is brought ups never blames them of the shipwreck...

 

 

32 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

not too much . but surely wayyyy more than how much a Stark who had usually hung out north of the Neck would. 

A few words is not much more. Rhaegar and Robert saw each other in Storm's End and that's about it. They were virtually strangers. 

 

 

33 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

we know what the entire realm thinks after 15 years that Rhaegar has died and so has Lyanna . the natural reaction people would have upon hearing " Rhaegar Targaryen (the noble responsible prince) has abducted Lyanna Stark " is " what?! Rhaegar?! kidnapping?! Rape?!" . because it doesn't fit his character ..

Why would it change 15 years later?? 

Your average Lord has never seen Rhaegar but I bet most of them had heard the rumours about what he pulled on Harrenhall.

Btw, the crowning doesn't fit his character (the noble and responsible prince) either. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

because it doesn't fit his character .. even years after his death the way someone like Barristan thinks is full of language of love suggesting a mutual relationship. it's possible that at first these people didn't even believe Brandon's accusations and after years had figured it was love

I don't really want to get into what it was since it's neither the topic, not it's worth it anyway. Let's just highlight some things.

- What you believe it's love and what medieval people believe it's love can be two very different things.

- Barristan still believes he carried her off. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, frenin said:

But... Why wouldn't he say something in private?? Unlike Robert's beef over the crowning of Lyanna, in which we're told that he was in fact upset. There's no instance about him being mad about the shipwreck.

And there's little holding him back once he's King, he doesn't answer to anyone and he already publicly insults the Targaryens... Why no one mentions him blaming them for his  parents' accident?

Because even if he had thoughts like that - that the Targaryens are guilty in the death of Robert's parents - it would have been stupid, even insane to voice those thoughts aloud. Because it's an irrational thinking, and people don't share with the others their irrational thoughts.

Spoiler

By the way - if Robert really blamed the Targaryens in his parents' death, he wasn't wrong, because they did died because Aerys had sent them on that mission. My guess is that Steffon and Cassana were returning to Westeros without a bride, because when they went to Volantis, they found out that there are a lot of noble girls with Valyrian blood and long pedigree. So they were intending for Rhaegar himself to go to Volantis to pick there a bride. And the Faceless Men wanted to prevent Rhaegar from marrying outside of Westeros, because they knew from the prophecy that Rhaegar was supposed to have a child with a local girl. Thus one of the Faceless Men - Patchface, went on board with the Baratheon-duo, and while they were crossing the Narrow Sea, he killed everyone on board of that ship, and then near the coast, aimed the ship to sail on the sea-rocks, where it crashed and sunk. But it was a ghost-ship, with everyone on board, except Patchface himself, already dead, even before the crash.

You can read more on this topic here:

Iron Shell part 1/4. The hydra has three heads

Iron Shell part 2/4. Chicks, eggs and chickens

Iron Shell part 3/4. How to get away with murder (Braavosi style)

Iron Shell part 4/4. The tolls of the House of Black and White

Though, let's not discuss this topic here, let's not go off topic of this thread.

I just wanted to say that Robert was right, if he blamed the Targaryens in his parents' death. Because if Aerys didn't intended for Rhaegar to marry with a Volanteese-girl, then the Baratheon-duo and all those people that were with them on that ship, wouldn't have been assassinated by the Faceless Men.

Also, note that I don't say that Robert definitely blamed the Targaryens in his parents' death, and that was the main reason of his animosity towards Targaryens. I just say that he could have had those thoughts. Probably.

22 hours ago, frenin said:

And there's little holding him back once he's King, he doesn't answer to anyone

That's not exactly correct. He did had to answer to Jon Arryn. Read my explanation below.

22 hours ago, frenin said:

 

On 11/22/2021 at 9:44 PM, Megorova said:

He pretended that he isn't bothered by the continued existance of the Targaryen-duo,

Again, you're making things up. 

Robert was always wary and he only left them live because he thought they wouldn't be a threat to his rule, once they start becoming one, he worries again.

Robert let them live not because he thought that they are not a threat to his rule, he always thought that they were a threat. Though he didn't killed them because Jon Arryn forbade him.

Could be that Jon warned Robert, that if he will send assassins to kill the Targaryen-duo, then Jon will quit his post as the King's Hand, and what Robert would do then? Why do you think he had immediately went to The North, when Jon died? That's because he was incapable to rule on his own, because he was an idiot, too dumb to do all that Kingly stuff - duties, responsibilities, etc. He needed a smart guy, to whom he could have trusted, someone on his side, to do all the work that is supposed to be done by the King. And Jon Arryn was that guy. Without him Robert would have been unable to rule over the 7K. So when Jon gave him an ultimatum - leave those kids alone, or I will quit, - Robert had to agree, or to say goodbuy to his throne. Because without Jon, he would have been unable to hold it.

22 hours ago, frenin said:

 

On 11/22/2021 at 9:44 PM, Megorova said:

Also, after the Rebellion he made Stannis the Prince of Dragonstone, to spite him and to punish him for failing to capture the Targaryen-duo.

Your words clash directly with Martin's own version of the events.

On 11/22/2021 at 9:44 PM, Megorova said:

By assigning that title to Stannis, Robert robbed him of the title the Lord of Stormlands.

Stannis never had such title. It was Robert's and Robert's only to give.

On 11/22/2021 at 9:44 PM, Megorova said:

And the title of the Dragonstone's Prince was only temporal, until Robert had his first child, and then Stannis remained with nothing. Robert did that on purpose, to punish Stannis, though he never admitted it.

Stannis was not Castellan of Dragonstone. He was Lord of Dragonstone.

The title was in perpetuity.

If you have this basic facts wrong because of your bias. There's little we can discuss so let's leave it at that.

This is what GRRM said on that topic:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Quote

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

Even when Robert was assigning that title to Stannis, it was obvious to him that Stannis will be his heir presumptive only for as long as Robert won't have a child with his wife. And, considering that Robert was fertile - he already had two or three children even before he got married with Cersei (Mya Stone, Peachy Bella and maybe also Gendry), it was just a matter of a year or two until Cersei would have had Robert's child. -> "On one occasion, early in her marriage, Cersei became pregnant by Robert. Unwilling to give birth to Robert's child, she sent Jaime out to find a woman to cleanse her.[29]"

So when Joffrey was born, Stannis stopped being Robert's heir presumptive, despite him still carrying the title of the Lord of Dragonstone. So the title was meaningless, because it carried no weight behind it. And it was obvious to Robert, all those years ago, when he gave this title to Stannis, that in a few years this title will turn into nothing. He did it on purpose. Just look how GRRM phrased it - "Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth". Assigning this titul to Stannis was a perfect way how to spite him, while at the same time making his gesture to appear like a reward, given to Stannis for seizing Dragonstone for Robert.

Without the death of the Targaryen children, Stannis' conquest of Dragonstone had no meaning, because the island itself was worthless. So Stannis, by seizing Dragonstone, had accomplished absolutely nothing for Robert. Thus Robert had paid him back with the same "false coin" - he gave Dragonstone and the title of its Lord to Stannis, and thus made Stannis his heir presumptive, though just for a short while, and then after he had a child, born in span of his marriage with Cersei, the title that he gave to Stannis, became void. So Stannis was left with a useless rock. Which is the same thing as he gave to Robert, after Robert sent him to seize Dragonstone and to kill the Targaryens that were there.

So this was a perfect way to spite Stannis, while outwardly making it look as if though this title is a reward. He was that kind of person - two-faced, and a grump who harbored spites and grudges.

23 hours ago, EggBlue said:

as ruthlessly as you described poor Bobby

Do you really think so? Don't you see that Robert Baratheon was a failure as a human being? -> he was a horrible brother, a horrible fiance, a horrible friend, a horrible husband, a horrible father, and a horrible King.

Spoiler

As a brother:

When he went into war to fight at Ashford, he took all the resources and all the troops from Storm's End. He left his castle and his brothers deprived of the means of protection, and with an empty food stores. Which significally worsened their situation, when the castle was sieged shortly after Robert's departure.

When later he joined forces with Jon Arryn, Ned and Hoster Tully, he didn't went to help his brothers, that were sieged and starved at Storm's End. By the end of the siege they nearly resorted to cannibalism. They were half a step away from beginning to eat corpses of those who died at the castle. Neither did he went there after the Trident, or when he seized King's Landing and the Iron Throne. He didn't went to save his brothers even then, and he didn't even sent Ned to go there. It was Ned's own initiative to go to Storm's End, to confront there the Tyrell-troops. Getting the Throne was more important to Robert than saving his brothers.

On Stannis' wedding night Robert had sex with Selyse' cousin in Stannis' bed, where Stannis was supposed to consumate his marriage with Selyse. Can you imagine that scene? - Stannis came with his bride to their chamber, and they either saw there Robert, rolling in the sheets with Delena Florent, or they came there already afterwards, and discovered that their bedsheets are covered in sweat and sperm. A wedding present from Robert to his brother and his bride.

As a fiance:

No more than 4 months after Lyanna's supposed kidnapping, while Robert still didn't knew where Lyanna is, and whether she is alive or dead, he was fucking whores at the Peach brothel, and conceived Peachy Bella.

When he met Rhaegar at the Trident, he was using deadly force, with the intent to kill Rhaegar. I don't remember anyone, who were present during that battle, mentioning Robert asking Rhaegar where Lyanna is. Robert killed him, despite only Rhaegar knowing Lyanna's whereabouts. So Robert didn't actually cared about where Lyanna was. He just used her as an excuse to attack the Targaryens.

Afterwards he also didn't went to look for Lyanna. And wasn't upset when he came to King's Landing, and it turned out that King Aerys and Princess Elia (those people to whom Rhaegar could have said where he went with Lyanna after kidnapping her, and where he kept her since then) were both dead, and thus any information that they could have known about Lyanna was lost.

I think that Lyanna wasn't actually kidnapped by Rhaegar, I think that she willingly eloped with him. One of the reasons was her not wanting to marry Robert. So I think that maybe Lyanna sent a raven to the Eyrie, with a message to Robert, in which she wrote that she's leaving him to marry with Rhaegar. And Robert didn't told about that letter to Ned, or anyone else. And that's the real reason why he didn't tried to find out where Lyanna was. In his opinion, she betrayed him, so he let it happen that her brother and father died, while they were believing that Lyanna was kidnapped. I think that Lyanna explained her intentions in that letter, and asked Robert, as her ex-fiance, to inform her family that she broke their engagement, and that she will marry with Rhaegar. She sent that letter to Robert shortly prior to her supposed kidnapping, so he wouldn't have been able to stop her. Though afterwards, if he did what Lyanna had asked him to do, and informed her family about her decision, then Brandon wouldn't have went to KL, and him and Rickard wouldn't have been executed, and Aerys wouldn't have demanded Ned's and Robert's heads, and Jon Arryn wouldn't have rebelled against the King, etc.

As a friend:

When Jon Arryn died, Robert came to Winterfell and told Ned to just drop his life there, and to go to King's Landing to be Robert's Hand. He did that not for the people of the 7K, he did it for himself. Because otherwise he wouldn't have managed to keep a hold over the Iron Throne without the assistance of a person who would have been doing instead of Robert all of the King's duties, like Jon Arryn was doing it for Robert before Ned.

After Bran's fall Robert didn't gave Ned an opportunity to stay at Winterfell for a few more weeks, until Bran would have either died or woke up. Bran woke up when Tyrion was still at The Wall, so Ned and the girls at that time were still on the way to KL. If Robert was a good friend to Ned, then he would have allowed him to stay for a month or two with his son.

"Jory accompanies Lord Eddard to Chataya's brothel to find one of Robert's bastards, Barra. On the return trip to the Red Keep, however, Jory, Heward, and Wyl are slain in the streets of King's Landing by House Lannister guards. Ser Jaime Lannister intends their deaths to be a lesson to Eddard, as Eddard's wife, Catelyn Stark, had abducted Jaime's brother, Tyrion Lannister. After the Lannisters depart, an injured Ned cradles Jory's body in the street.[5]"

Jaime's people killed three of Ned's people, and Robert didn't punished Jaime for what he did.

As a husband:

He was beating Cersei, and raped her more than a few times.

And in span of his marriage with her, he had 10+ kids born by other women.

He was frequently visiting brothels, and easily could have became infected with pox/syphilis, or some other sexually transmitted and deadly disease, and could have infected his wife with it too.

As a father:

AGOT, Ned IX - "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough … but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see."

Joffrey was a sadist and a psychopath, and Tommen is a dim witted simpleton. And Robert was just ignoring it. For the sake of the 7K's people Robert should have removed those boys from the line of succession, to prevent either of them from becoming a King in the future. He should have named Stannis or Renly as his heir presumptive, because both of his official sons were unfit to rule.

The Faceless Men were poisoning Joffrey with basilisk blood, which caused his phychosis. And it seems likely that they were also giving something to Tommen, some sort of medication that made his brain to stop developing, so he remained on a mental level of a little child. Similar thing the FM did to Daeron the Drunken's daughter - Vaella, and Daeron II's son - Rhaegel, and maybe also to Gael the Winter child and princess Jaehaera - first wife of Aegon III. It wasn't Robert's fault, nor his responsibility, what the Faceless Men did to Joffrey and Tommen. It's not his fault that he was unaware of that. Though it was obvious that those two boys were mentally deficient. So, as their supposed father and the King, Robert should have done at least something. But he did absolutely nothing. He was an awful father to both - his bastards, and his supposedly legitimate children.

As a King:

The Crown became hugely indebted to the Iron Bank and the other moneylenders:

AGOT, Ned IV - "The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

Ned was aghast. "Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold. How could you let this happen?"

Littlefinger gave a shrug. "The master of coin finds the money. The king and the Hand spend it."

“I will not believe that Jon Arryn allowed Robert to beggar the realm,” Ned said hotly.

Grand Maester Pycelle shook his great bald head, his chains clinking softly. “Lord Arryn was a prudent man, but I fear that His Grace does not always listen to wise counsel.”

“My royal brother loves tournaments and feasts,” Renly Baratheon said, “and he loathes what he calls ‘counting coppers.’

So my description of the "poor Bobby" is not ruthless. He was more a walking catastrophe than a human being. And people with so many negative personality traits like him, will always find a reason, an excuse, to hate people who are better than them, like Robert hated Rhaegar. Robert just used Lyanna as an excuse to vent his anger on Rhaegar, he didn't really cared about Lyanna, and never loved her. I may be mistaken about this part, but as I see it, it seems likely that Robert actually had met Lyanna only once - during that tournament at Harrenhal. And, as you can see from Howland's description of those events, most of the tournament Lyanna was spending not with Robert, but near Howland, and then posing as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So Robert barely knew Lyanna. And thus he couldn't have loved her, the real her, not an idealised image of Lyanna that Robert had created in his mind, especially after Lyanna's death. So she was just an excuse, using which Robert got rid of the Targaryens.

In my opinion, Robert had resented Rhaegar, maybe even before they have actually met, on that tourney at Storm's End, held in 278, shortly prior to Steffon's departure to Volantis. I think that Robert frequently heard a lot of praises about Rhaegar, and thus was jealous of him. Then they met, and first thing that Rhaegar did, is defeated Robert on his first ever tournament, and thus shamed him at his own house. And then Robert's parents died, while returning from the assignment on which they went because of Rhaegar. And then, at the tournament held at Storm's End to honor the memory of Lord Steffon, Robert again was defeated by Rhaegar. And then, at the Harrenhal's tournament, Robert didn't even participated in the jousting, not to be defeated again by Rhaegar, like it was in the previous two tournaments in which they were opponents. Robert even made an excuse that he likes melees more than jousting, not to compete with Rhaegar again. And Rhaegar won in the tournament, became the champion and crowned Robert's fiancee as his Queen of Love and Beauty, and thus even more insulted Robert. And then Lyanna possibly sent a letter to Robert, informing him that she is leaving him to become Rhaegar's wife. And that was the final drop, which also finally gave Robert an excuse to vent out his long-harbored hatred towards the Targaryens.

23 hours ago, Odej said:

Until the tourney and the rebellion what threat Rhaegar represented to him?

Prior to Lyanna's kidnapping, Rhaegar had trice spited Robert - 1. by defeating him on Robert's first tournament; 2. by defeating Robert on the tournament held by the Baratheons to honor their recently deceased father; 3. and Robert so didn't wanted to be defeated by Rhaegar a third time, that he didn't even participated in the jousting at the tournament at Harrenhal. But Rhaegar still managed to up him that time too, by winning in the tournament and crowning Robert's fiancee as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Edited by Megorova
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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Because even if he had thoughts like that - that the Targaryens are guilty in the death of Robert's parents - it would have been stupid, even insane to voice those thoughts aloud. Because it's an irrational thinking, and people don't share with the others their irrational thoughts.

As opposed to his other rational thoughts about the Targaryens... Come on now.

And I wonder... How can you tell that Robert has these feelings that he never voices, expresses, hints of otherwise showcase in any meaningful manner? 

Your argument has the same merit as hypothesis of Ned being a canibal and a believer of the seven.

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Though he didn't killed them because Jon Arryn forbade him.

How could the Hand of the King forbid him to do anything?

Both Robert and Renly state that Arryn convinced Robert to spare them.

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's not exactly correct. He did had to answer to Jon Arryn. Read my explanation below.

This is stated to be untrue when Eddard asked the council how could Arryn have let Robert spend so much and the council conveyed on Robert doing whatever he wanted.

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be that Jon warned Robert, that if he will send assassins to kill the Targaryen-duo, then Jon will quit his post as the King's Hand, and what Robert would do then?

This is not what we're told.

Regardless, if Jon resigned. It's likely that Robert turned to Ned or his in laws.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Robert had to agree, or to say goodbuy to his throne. Because without Jon, he would have been unable to hold it.

Are you really telling me that Robert could have never found someone capable enough to run things for him?? Someone like say... His own father in law?

 

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So when Joffrey was born, Stannis stopped being Robert's heir presumptive, despite him still carrying the title of the Lord of Dragonstone. So the title was meaningless, because it carried no weight behind it.

How the title of *Lord* carries no weight behind it??

Even the wiki can tell you that Robert effectively created three different Baratheon branches.

Robert gave him the title in perpetuity, Joffrey was never to inherit in normal circumstances. 

If you read more Martin affirms that:

"Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity."

Yet again, it doesn't fit your rant, so you ignored it.

 

I've read the rest of your post and this time for real, I'm not responding again. You're passing your fanfic as true to argue, that's just bad faith.

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22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are you really telling me that Robert could have never found someone capable enough to run things for him?? Someone like say... His own father in law?

Tywin? Really? :rolleyes:

I don't doubt that Tywin would have been a very capable Hand. Though I doubt that he would have, as you phrased it - "run things" for Robert. He would have "run things" for himself, and if Robert let him near the Throne, it would have been only a matter of time, when Tywin would have offed Robert. That's why I said that Robert needed someone not only capable of serving as the King's Hand, but also someone who would have been truly on Robert's side, and wouldn't have been plotting their own things for their own benefits behind Robert's back. And Robert in the entire world had only two people like that - Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, because even Robert's own brothers would have acted in their own interests, and not for Robert's causes.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yet again, it doesn't fit your rant, so you ignored it.

I didn't ignored it. And if you're going to talk to me in this manner - then you can talk with yourself.

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

I've read the rest of your post and this time for real, I'm not responding again.

Good.

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On 11/22/2021 at 5:06 PM, Megorova said:

At that tournament Robert's father was defeated by young Rhaegar, and Robert was defeated by Barristan Selmy, who was escorting Rhaegar on that visit to Storm's End.

In joust, not in an actual fight, nobody was injured so there was nothing to be mad at, except if you're Tyrion but Robert is not Tyrion. Moreover, as @Odej stated, he preferred melee so he wouldn't care that much.

On 11/22/2021 at 5:06 PM, Megorova said:

So it's obvious that Robert disliked Rhaegar from then on, because Rhaegar was superior to him in all aspects.

Are you making another fanfiction here? Haven't you had enough with your Swan songs?

Seems to be the case, Christ...

On 11/22/2021 at 5:06 PM, Megorova said:

Robert was a baudy loud pig made from strow, and Rhaegar was a delicate flower made from diamonds.

Obvious bias in favor of Rhaegar, bad start...

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

He was more goodlooking than Robert.

This doesn't affect Robert's life since Rhaegar was not a womanizer like Robert was, they were not playing the same game here so it doesn't matter.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

For example - compare what Cersei thought and said about Robert, and what she thought and said about Prince Rhaegar. She adored and idolised him.

Robert didn't love Cersei and wouldn't care more if he knew she was more attracted to Rhaegar.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert.

Because Rhaegar was a bookish guy and not Robert? Are you the kind of woman who thinks that guys who enjoy fights are dumb and reading books makes you more intelligent than average people? I hope you are not and strongly suggest you to learn more about historical european martial arts, raw strength is not enough to be the legendary fighter Robert was, you also need skills and tactics to be efficient. An average or below average guy cannot achieve that.

Robert was not only a great fighter but also a great battle commander who has won battles while being outnumbered, an average or below average guy cannot achieve that either. Rhaegar didn't show greater feats than that, he was a capable fighter I won't deny that but there is not much to it. The only battle he led, he had the overhang, didn't take advantage of it and ended up being killed by Robert in a fair fight. Without bias this statement doesn't hold.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

Rhaegar was loved and highly respected by his peers.

Same case with Robert.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

He was an honorable and a responsible person.

If he was really honorable and responsible, he wouldn't have humiliated his wife in front of everyone at Harrenhal or dishonored his cousin's bride by offering her the crown of love and beauty. No matter what the intentions were, it is a disgrace in-universe and it is irresponsible. Abducting his cousin's bride one year later (or fleeing with her, whatever) is not more responsible, it provoked a civil war which led him to his death.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

Robert had so many negative personality traits, that he was a total failure as a human being.

Many negative personality traits? Like all of us, nobody is perfect, he was aware of his bad traits and tried to redeem himself in the end, it's not a total failure finally. Reading you, Robert is a mix of Tyrion and Joffrey while Rhaegar is the perfect prince, what a joke.

On 11/22/2021 at 8:44 PM, Megorova said:

He pretended that he isn't bothered by the continued existance of the Targaryen-duo, but then in private with Ned shared that he wants to send an assassin to kill Dany and her child.

It wasn't in private, but at the Small Council meeting, besides Viserys and she was planning an invasion with the Dothraki so they were an actual threat to the Baratheon regime, he didn't chose to act in pure spite like Cersei did when she planned to murder Jon who was doing his business in the Night's Watch, far away from her schemes.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because even if he had thoughts like that - that the Targaryens are guilty in the death of Robert's parents - it would have been stupid, even insane to voice those thoughts aloud. Because it's an irrational thinking, and people don't share with the others their irrational thoughts.

You are making this up, nothing more.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Just look how GRRM phrased it - "Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth". Assigning this titul to Stannis was a perfect way how to spite him, while at the same time making his gesture to appear like a reward, given to Stannis for seizing Dragonstone for Robert.

You've ignored that part:

"Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity."

Robert had many flaws but he was not spiteful, stop making things up.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

So my description of the "poor Bobby" is not ruthless.

Yes, it is.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

In my opinion, Robert had resented Rhaegar, maybe even before they have actually met, on that tourney at Storm's End, held in 278, shortly prior to Steffon's departure to Volantis.

Very biased opinion, you hate him and you let your hatred clouding your judgement.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. by defeating him on Robert's first tournament

Robert has been defeated by Barristan, not Rhaegar. They didn't face each other at this tourney.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

by defeating Robert on the tournament held by the Baratheons to honor their recently deceased father

There was no such tournament.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

and Robert so didn't wanted to be defeated by Rhaegar a third time

There wasn't even a first time.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I didn't ignored it.

Yes, you did.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

And if you're going to talk to me in this manner - then you can talk with yourself.

He didn't trash talk you, stop playing the offended victim, it won't work.

You clearly are a Robert hater, doing everything you can to make him look worse than he really was, while turning a blind eye to Rhaegar's flaws. This is bad faith.

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18 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Robert had many flaws but he was not spiteful, stop making things up.

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves." - Robert, AGOT, Ned II.

Not spiteful :lmao:Yeah, right.

18 hours ago, Willam Stark said:
22 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. by defeating him on Robert's first tournament

Robert has been defeated by Barristan, not Rhaegar. They didn't face each other at this tourney.

Rhaegar defeated Robert's father, and Robert himself was defeated by a guy from Rhaegar's retinue (Barri). So the total outcome was - Targaryens VS Baratheons - 2:0. So Rhaegar (the visitor) won and Robert (the host) lost. There was the original Queen of Love and Beauty at that tournament, same how it was at any other tournament, and if the visitor wins in the tournament, he takes the crown from the host's Queen, and gives it to a different woman/girl - the "Queen" of his choosing. Probably the original "Queen" was Cassana, and Rhaegar, by defeating Steffon, deprived him of the opportunity to defend the "crown", and for Cassana to retain it. Then Barristan defeated Robert, and he also was unable keep the "Queen's crown" for his mother. So in the end the crown was taken from Cassana, the hostess of the tournament, and was given to some other woman, and it was the fault of Rhaegar and his man - Barristan. Visitors VS Hosts - 2:0. [Edit: by the end of this post I found additional info, based on which I came to conclusion that the champion of that tournament possibly was not Barristan, and that Barristan maybe didn't even participated, and Robert that time also didn't participated, and maybe also wasn't even a knight yet. Instead Barristan defeated Robert during the second tournament.]

So it's actually not relevant whether Rhaegar and Robert fought against each other during that tournament, or not, because either way Robert's mother ended being not the Queen of Love and Beauty of that tournament, and it was Robert's defeat, and partially it was Rhaegar's doing.

18 hours ago, Willam Stark said:
22 hours ago, Megorova said:

by defeating Robert on the tournament held by the Baratheons to honor their recently deceased father

There was no such tournament.

There was two tournaments held at Storm's End, both prior to the tournament at Harrenhal. One of them was held while Steffon was still alive, because on that tournament he was defeated by Rhaegar. The second tournament had occurred already after Steffon's death, because Robert, who participated in that tournament and was defeated by Barristan, was at that time referred to as - Lord Robert Baratheon, and the tournament in which he participated was called Lord Steffon's Tourney, and on that tournament Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne (which means that that tournament had occurred prior to Barristan's confrontation with the Kingswood Brotherhood, which had occurred in early 281 AC). The first of those tournaments had occurred in or shortly prior to 278, and the second was held some time after Steffon's death.

Robert participated in both of those tournaments [Edit: only in the second], in jousting, so he was already a knight at that point. He was born in 262, so in 278 he was 15-16 years old. He wasn't known as the youngest ever knight of the 7K, and it wasn't even noted that he was the same as Jaime, who was knighted while aged 15. Which means that Robert was knighted when he was older than Jaime at the time of Jaime's knighting, thus - 16 [Edit: or older, after 278 AC]. Thus that first tournament couldn't have occurred earlier than in 278 AC, otherwise Robert wouldn't have been able to participate in it, because when he was younger than 16, he wasn't a knight yet. And it couldn't have occurred later than in 278 AC, because Steffon Baratheon participated in that tournament and was defeated by Rhaegar, and then Steffon died later in 278.

There was two tournaments, and the second of them was called "Lord Steffon's Tourney", and Steffon himself at that time was already dead, because at that tournament Robert was referred to as a Lord.

Steffon was dead, and Robert was the Lord of Stormlands, and that tournament was called "Lord Steffon's Tourney". So what else could it have been, if not Robert's attempt to honor his deceased father? So there was a tournament like that. There was.

Look here:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Storm's_End

"Contradictions

Lord Steffon Baratheon was sent on a mission to Essos in 278 AC, but he died during the return voyage.[3] The tourney he hosted thus must have occurred by 278 AC at the latest. Barristan states that Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Simon Toyne during the tourney,[1] but Barristan's White Book entry lists the tourney as occurring after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood (during which Barristan killed Simon) and before the Battle of the Trident.[2] In the White Book entry, written by Ser Gerold Hightower (as he was the Lord Commander), the tourney is called "Lord Steffon's Tourney". The chronology of the entry would place the tourney years after Steffon's death, which is suggested as well by naming Robert Baratheon by the title of "Lord", as Robert became the Lord of Storm's End after Steffon's death, and possibly the fact that Jon Connington was described as "Lord" as well, while it is known that Connington (exiled during Robert's Rebellion, ruled Griffin's Roost as Lord only for a few short years.[4]

When the discrepancy was brought to his attention, George R. R. Martin stated that Barristan's recollection of Simon's participation is incorrect and that the aged knight is confusing multiple historical tourneys.[5] It seems therefore likely that Barristan mixed up multiple tourney's at Storm's End in his mind, one hosted by Lord Steffon before his death, and one hosted by Robert after Steffon's death."

 

There was definitely two separate tournaments held at Storm's End, one shortly prior to Steffon's death, and one some time after his death. Ignore for a moment what is written in that entry from Wikia, and what GRRM said about Simon, because that information is irrelevant for this topic. What I mean is (whether Barri had mixed up several tournamets, and whether Simon participated or not, doesn't in any way influence the fact that there was indeed two tournaments, both held at Storm's End, not one) - let's look only at the direct infromation from the books:

ASOS, Dany IV, chapter 42:

“When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm’s End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.”

“Was he the champion, then?”

“No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt.”

ASOS, Jaime VIII, chapter 67:

"Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen."

In the tournament described by Barristan, Jason Mallister and Oberyn Martell were defeated by Rhaegar. The tournament is the game of elimination. Those who are defeated can't keep participating, they are removed from the ranks, those are the rules of tournaments.

In the tournament, recorded in Barristna's entry in the White Book, amongst those people that were defeated by Barristan, were Jason Mallister and Oberyn Martell. Which means that it was a different tournament, not the one during which those two guys were defeated by Rhaegar.

Barristan could have been confused and forgotten against whom Rhaegar fought in that tournament about which Barri told Dany, he could have been mistaken whether Rhaegar that time had fought against Simon Toyne or not, but he couldn't have confused/misremembered all of Rhaegar's opponents.

"He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.”

“Was he the champion, then?”

“No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt.”

It is only assumed by the readers, that the Kingsguard who unhorsed Rhaegar in the final tilt of that tournament, was Barristan. During that tournament Rhaegar defeated Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, and the Red Viper of Dorne. And during the tournament recorded in Barri's entry in the White Book, Jason Mallister and Oberyn Martell were defeated by Barristan, while Steffon Barathgeon was already dead, because Barristan in that tournament had also defeated Lord Robert Baratheon, and then he was called - "Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon". And because Jason Mallister and Oberyn Martell couldn't have been defeated twice in the span of the same tournament, because that's not how tournaments are held, it means that there was two tournaments, both held at Storm's End. During the earlier one Steffon Baratheon was still alive, and on that tournament him, and Jason Mallister, and Oberyn Martell were defeated by Rhaegar. And because there is no record about that first tournament in Barristan's entry in the White Book, it appears that Barristan didn't even participated in that tournament, he participated only in the later one, in Steffon's Tourney where he defeated Lord Robert Baratheon.

 

So yes, my mistake there - during that first tournament, the Kingsguard who became the champion was not Barristan, though this doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar defeated Robert's father, and then one of the Kingsguards became the champion, so the resulting score was still 2:0 - Visitors VS Hosts, and that the Targaryen-side was the victor and the Baratheon-side was the loser.

Which also means that maybe during that first tournament held at Storm's End, the one in which Rhaegar defeated Steffon, Robert at that time didn't participated, because maybe at that time he wasn't yet a knight.

 

So the minor details changed a bit, but the general outline is still the same - on the first tournament Rhaegar defeated Robert's father, and on the next tournament, which was called "Lord Steffon’s tourney", and during which Steffon was already dead, his successor - Lord Robert Baratheon, was defeated by a guy from Prince Rhaegar's retinue - Barristan Selmy.

So the score during the first tournament was Rhaegar VS Steffon - 1:0, the champion a Kingsguard VS Rhaegar - 1:0; and as result the crown was taken from Cassana and given to some other woman, maybe to Elia, if that Kingsguard was Lewyn Martell. And during the second tournament the score was Barristan VS Robert - 1:0. So Robert's family both times lost to the Targaryen side.

18 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

You clearly are a Robert hater, doing everything you can to make him look worse than he really was,

Did he not lost 6 million golden dragons and made the 7K hugely indebted? Was he not a serial cheater, who had 16 bastards on the side? Didn't he cheated on his fiancee while he supposedly believed that she was kidnapped, and he was making babies with the whores from the Stoney Sept, where he conceived Bella? Didn't he said - "He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.”" and "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."?

I'm not making him to look worse than he really was, furthermore - I'm not making him to look in any way - worse or better. He was what he was.

18 hours ago, Willam Stark said:
20 hours ago, Megorova said:

I didn't ignored it.

Yes, you did.

It's just too bothersome to explain that Robert's gesture was only looking like generosity, while actually it was not as generous as it appeared to be. What GRRM said - Robert could have kept both titles for himself and then gave them to his children, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Stormlands, instead he gave them to his brothers. But that's not exactly what he did. Not exactly. Read again exactly what GRRM said:

"The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity."

The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled the Prince of Dragonstone. "By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone". "Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone".

Do you see the implication?

Lord of Dragonstone is not the heir apparent of the Iron Throne, not the heir apparent of King Robert Baratheon. That's why Robert didn't took the title away from Stannis, after Joffrey was born. Because giving that title to Stannis didn't meant that Robert had permanently appointed Stannis as his heir. That gesture made Stannis Robert's temporal heir, only until Joffrey's birth. And then the status of the heir became void, but the title remained being Stannis'. Because the title itself for the Baratheon dynasty didn't had the same meaning as it did for the Targaryen dynasty. Lord, not Prince.

Whenever the Targaryen King had a new heir apparent, that heir was given the title - Prince/Princess of Dragonstone, and the title was taken from the previous helder and given to the new one.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Prince_of_Dragonstone#Known_Princes_and_Princesses_of_Dragonstone

For example, during the reign of Aerys I, his heirs apparent and Princes/Princesses of Dragonstone one after the other were - Rhaegel, Aelor, Aelora, Maekar. During Egg's reign - Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys. Etc.

So Robert did gave Dragonstone to Stannis, only the island, not the heir's status, not a status of the permanent heir. So Stannis for a few years, actually less than two - until Joffrey's birth in 286, was Robert's heir apparent, and then he wasn't. So all that Robert had actually permanently given to Stannis is the title  - Lord of Dragonstone, which gave his brother the reign over that one island, and nothing more. While to Renly he gave Stormlands. And in my opinion, this gesture was done to spite Stannis, to punish him for failing to deliver to Robert the corpses of the Targaryens, after whom Robert had sent Stannis to Dragonstone in 284 AC.

Yes, GRRM said that Robert didn't necessarily intended for that gesture to be slight. He did it because of his great, but rather careless, generosity. He gave to Stannis a title of the ruler of the Dragonstone island. Only the island, not what was the implications of that title for the Targaryen dynasty. When Robert died, people of the 7K didn't made Stannis their new King, despite him hodling the title the Lord of Dragonstone. Lord, not a Prince. So if Robert didn't gave that title to Stannis, he could have retained it for his future son and instead could have given to Stannis, as the next in line of the Baratheon succession, the title - Lord of Stormlands, and appointed him the Lord of an entire Kingdom, 1 out of 7 Kingsdoms of Westeros. And instead, by giving to Stannis the title of the Lord of Dragonstone, he cut him out from the line of the Baratheon succession of the House Baratheon of Stormlands. Instead there was created a new House - House Baratheon, Lords of Dragonstone. And to be a ruler of Stormlands is a more favourable position, than to be the Lord of Dragonstone. Which is one small desolate island in the middle of the smormy bay, with nothing valuable on it. If that title is not a title of the heir apparent of the Iron Throne, then that title is not something desirable, at least not something as valuable as the title of the Lord of Stormlands. Stannis thinks that Robert appointed him as the Lord of Dragonstone, to slight him. And Cersei thinks so too. So it doesn't actually matter what exactly Robert meant by that gesture. Because his intentions and the consequences of his decisions are two different things. As a consequence of his decision - Renly and his supporters claimed that, as Robert's successor of the Baratheon line of Stormlands, Renly is also Robert's successor in the line for the Throne, and that Stannis, having the title Lord of Dragonstone, doesn't make him the heir apparent of the Iron Throne, because the title Lord of Dragonstone is not the same thing as the title the Prince of Dragonstone.

Didn't Robert knew that after the birth of his own son, the title that he gave to Stannis will become "void", in a sense that he will stop being Robert's heir and will be merely a Lord of a desolate rock in the middle of nowhere? He knew. So there's that. He did it to punish Stannis. Stannis failed to give him the Targaryens, he gave Robert only an empty rock, so that's what Robert also gave to Stannis, as his "reward".

Edited by Megorova
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Their elders were on good terms.  I am referring to King Aerys and Steffon.  Enmity developed between the following generation.  I do not think Stannis and Renly were harboring bad feelings for cousin Rhaegar and Prince Viserys.  But Robert was under the bad influence of Jon Arryn and the Starks.  I blame it on the Starks and Jon Arryn.  I could get an irritating comment about hating on the Starks. Like I blame the Starks a lot.  They deserve it.  Jon Arryn and the Starks poisoned Robert's attitude.  Rickard Stark negotiated marriage pacts which he knew would threaten his rulers.  That's disloyal.  I won't say I'd burn him but I would give him a chance to prove his obedience by picking Lyanna's husband.  Lord Ric gets his head removed when he refuses my command.

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26 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Their elders were on good terms.  I am referring to King Aerys and Steffon.  Enmity developed between the following generation.  I do not think Stannis and Renly were harboring bad feelings for cousin Rhaegar and Prince Viserys.  But Robert was under the bad influence of Jon Arryn and the Starks.  I blame it on the Starks and Jon Arryn.  I could get an irritating comment about hating on the Starks. Like I blame the Starks a lot.  They deserve it.  Jon Arryn and the Starks poisoned Robert's attitude.  Rickard Stark negotiated marriage pacts which he knew would threaten his rulers.  That's disloyal.  I won't say I'd burn him but I would give him a chance to prove his obedience by picking Lyanna's husband.  Lord Ric gets his head removed when he refuses my command.

I wonder why Lord Steffon sent his eldest son to be fostered in such a poisonous environment... do you happen to have any insights on this?:)  

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