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What relation did Robert and Stannis Baratheon had with the Targaryens before the tourney of Harrenhal and the rebellion ?


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9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I wonder why Lord Steffon sent his eldest son to be fostered in such a poisonous environment... do you happen to have any insights on this?:)  

 

5 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Steffon could not know.  He was not present. 

Cressen was a valued advisor. It was his doing. 

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Robert and Rhaegar were too different to ever be close. Robert was the rough man’s man who would have distaste for the quiet, peace loving, singing prince who outranked him. High testosterone guys like Peake and Robert wants a king who loves to be the warrior.  Robert and Brandon are that way. 
 

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On 11/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, Megorova said:

Not spiteful :lmao:Yeah, right.

How do you define spite? We clearly don't have the same definition.

I will wait your answer before responding to your part on Stannis.

On 11/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, Megorova said:

So the minor details changed a bit, but the general outline is still the same

No your general outline is still false. You said that Robert was jealous of Rhaegar because he was better than him in everything, but it wasn't the case. They didn't share any hobbies in which we could have been able to compare them, the only things in which we can compare them are martial arts and army leadership, Robert turns out to be better than Rhaegar. The lines following this quote are just a desperate attempt to disprove what I've said before.

 

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1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

How do you define spite?

Spite - grudge, hostility, ill will, dislike, anger, enmity, envy, jealousy. Being spiteful or doing something out of spite - acting based on negative feelings towards specific person or subject.

Robert had a valid cause to hate Rhaegar, because he supposedly thought that Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped and raped Robert's fiancee. Though Robert had no rational reasons to hate or feel animosity towards all the other Targaryens, just because of what one of them supposedly did. He didn't had a basis/reason/cause to hate all the other Targaryens, aside from Rhaegar, and nevertheless he did, because that's what kind of personality he had - spiteful. He hated all of them by assossiation, so none of them actually had to do anything to deserve hatred from Robert, he hated them just because, thru assossiation with Rhaegar. And that kind of irrational unjust treatment of other people, is done by those people who have spiteful personalities, like Robert did.

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

I will wait your answer before responding to your part on Stannis.

Concerning Stannis - do you think that Robert, ending up in Stannis' bed on the night of his wedding with Selyse, was accidental, and not done on purpose?

Robert had his own chamber, it's reasonable that he didn't brought Delena into his own room, if he shared that room with Cersei. Though he could have went into Delena's room, or to any other out of dozens rooms with beds, that were available in that huge castle. But no, he went into the Master Bedroom, which prior becoming Stannis' room, used to be Prince Rhaegar's room. So Robert did what he did, specifically in that room, not merely because he wanted to spite Stannis with this gesture. More like he wanted to defile what used to be Rhaegar's marital bed, like Rhaegar supposedly defiled Robert's fiancee. Payback. To a dead person. Out of spite.

Though he did also wanted to spite Stannis too, because he on purpose had chosen, as his sex-partner for that night, the cousin of Stannis' bride. He could have picked any other woman, but he picked Delena, to spite Stannis.

The woman with whom, and the place where, weren't accidental, they were picked intentionally. To spite long-dead Rhaegar, and to spite Stannis.

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

They didn't share any hobbies in which we could have been able to compare them, the only things in which we can compare them are martial arts and army leadership, Robert turns out to be better than Rhaegar.

You know, just because Robert killed Rhaegar on that battlefield, doesn't mean that Robert was better at martial arts or leadership. Rhaegar lost because he was doomed from the very beginning. He was destined to die on that battlefield. (Here goes my theory ;))

Spoiler

Apparently there was some sort of prophecy, according to which was supposed to die a Black Dragon, and with him were supposed to die many people of the 7K. The Faceless Men thought that that Black Dragon was Baelor Breakspear, so they killed him. And then they caused an epidemy, in span of which died thousands of the 7K's citizens - the Great Spring Sickness of 209-210. The Faceless Men thought that by causing those calamities, they are executing the will of the Gods. Though they were wrong, because the Black Dragon, that was supposed to die, for the Promised Prince to be born, was Rhaegar. And the multitudes that were supposed to die with the Black Dragon, were all those people that died in the span of Robert's Rebellion. And those events happened naturally, without any pushes from the FM, or any other parties, because that was Fate. Robert was able to defeat Rhaegar, not because he was better, but because it was Rhaegar's Fate to be defeated, and to die on that battlefield. Without that sacrifice, the Prince that was Promised wouldn't have been born.

I know what you'll say - what I wrote is a bad faith and fanfiction. Ok. That's your opinion.

By the way, did you came on this thread to express your opinion about the topic raised here, which is - the state of the relationship between Baratheons and Targaryens prior to the tourney of Harrenhal, or just to nag me? You already did the second one, so how about doing the first one too? You didn't even wrote what are your own thoughts on this topic, you just started to criticize mine.

Back on topic - Dany conquered the Slaver's Bay. Does that mean that she was better at martial arts and army leadership than were the Great Masters? I don't think so. She won, merely because it was Fate, same as it was Fate for Rhaegar to die then and there.

Also, I never ever wrote that Rhaegar was a perfect sinless divine being, without any flaws, who never did anything wrong, or never made any mistakes. And neither did I wrote that Robert didn't had any good qualities. Because everyone do have both bad and good qualities, even villains. For example - one of Ramsey Snow's good qualities/strong sides is that he is purposeful and persistant - he knows what he wants, and he does what is necessary to achieve his goals. So obviously that Robert also had good sides to his personality, it's just that, in my opinion, his numerous flaws greatly outweighted those good traits. And because one of Robert's negative personality traits was spitefulness, it's likely that if he ever had some sort of confrontation, disput, rivalry, or competition against Rhaegar, and lost to him, in Robert's case that alone would have been enough to have a long-lasting grudge against Rhaegar, even before the events that had occurred later at Harrenhal.

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38 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Robert had no rational reasons to hate or feel animosity towards all the other Targaryens, just because of what one of them supposedly did. He didn't had a basis/reason/cause to hate all the other Targaryens, aside from Rhaegar, and nevertheless he did, because that's what kind of personality he had - spiteful.

Aerys had just murdered in a particularly gruesome and cruel way his best friend's father and brother. He had also murdered Elbert Arryn, who was also likely a friend of Robert, for no reason at all. And then there's the little fact that king Aerys had asked for Robert's head. I'd call that "a rational reason to feel animosity" towards Aerys.

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On 11/22/2021 at 9:48 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Before the tourney of Harrenhal that saw Rhaegar crown Lyanna Stark as the queen of love and beauty, Rhaegar taking Lyanna with him willingly or not, and the rebellion that ensued what do you think what was the relation between the Baratheon brothers and their distant royal cousins ?

Were there already some internal tensions following Steffon and Casanna Baratheon's death following their mission to Essos, or were they at least in cordial terms, or were they indifferent to each other ?

Does Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna say something about his relation with Robert ?

The relationship that the Baratheon boys and the Targaryens had in my honest opinion was until  the kidnapping or wooing of Lyanna was neutral . The only example that I could think of is , after the appearance of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and his victories over the Freys and their banner men . Aerys said ", This knight was no friend to him and to unmask him ." Robert was one of the first to promise to unmask him . Only after the disappearance of Lyanna and the call for his and Eddard's head did things change .

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On 11/26/2021 at 6:50 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The relationship that the Baratheon boys and the Targaryens had in my honest opinion was until  the kidnapping or wooing of Lyanna was neutral . The only example that I could think of is , after the appearance of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and his victories over the Freys and their banner men . Aerys said ", This knight was no friend to him and to unmask him ." Robert was one of the first to promise to unmask him . Only after the disappearance of Lyanna and the call for his and Eddard's head did things change .

Rickard, Brandon, and Robert were setting up a family alliance which would threaten the Targaryen rule. Aerys and his family had every right to block the formation of those dangerous marriage alliances. Rickard and the boys were the aggressors. An alliance like that is treason.

I am sure the relationship was cold. Robert would not pose himself a threat to cousin Rhaegar if he had liked the  prince. His parents died for Rhaegar and he resented it. Mom and dad were ordered to find a bride for a prince who couldn’t do it on his own. Prince marries a Dornish woman and has kids. Robert counters by marrying a northern girl. It also seems Brandon was being set up to serve as Robert’s Hand. 

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On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

Spite - grudge, hostility, ill will, dislike, anger, enmity, envy, jealousy. Being spiteful or doing something out of spite - acting based on negative feelings towards specific person or subject.

I see, well, I don't have the same definition of this term. According to me, spite refers to a person who enjoys inflicting pain on others, they take a sadistic pleasure in doing so and Robert is definitely not like that. That is why I disagree with you on that part, he hated the Targaryen due to their recent history and the actual threat they posed to him. May I remind you Viserys and Dany's plan in AGOT and after that for the mother of dragons?

Now let's take a look on your previous Stannis part

On 11/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, Megorova said:

So Robert did gave Dragonstone to Stannis, only the island, not the heir's status, not a status of the permanent heir.

Robert expected to have sons, nothing weird here.

On 11/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, Megorova said:

Lord of Dragonstone, which gave his brother the reign over that one island, and nothing more.

No, he also became the liege lord of the narrow sea, which gave him a naval strength. Then Robert named him master of ships, confirming his strategic position.

On 11/24/2021 at 6:49 PM, Megorova said:

And in my opinion, this gesture was done to spite Stannis, to punish him for failing to deliver to Robert the corpses of the Targaryens, after whom Robert had sent Stannis to Dragonstone in 284 AC.

Your opinion is biased by your hatred towards Robert, he didn't meant it that way.

I'm not saying he did great, but this gesture wasn't done to spite Stannis.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

Concerning Stannis - do you think that Robert, ending up in Stannis' bed on the night of his wedding with Selyse, was accidental, and not done on purpose?

Accidental, he was most likely drunk and as you said the castle was huge. His room was probably far away from the location he has started to hook up with Delena, so he took the closest room which happens to be Stannis' one. It is very hard to properly walk when you're drunk, add to this the sexual excitement and you get what happened. I know that doesn't fit your narrative, but that's how I see this event.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

You know, just because Robert killed Rhaegar on that battlefield, doesn't mean that Robert was better at martial arts or leadership. Rhaegar lost because he was doomed from the very beginning. He was destined to die on that battlefield.

Those statements are not mutually exclusive: Rhaegar sealed his fate when he pissed off a better fighter than him.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

I know what you'll say - what I wrote is a bad faith and fanfiction. Ok. That's your opinion.

I didn't read your theory.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

By the way, did you came on this thread to express your opinion about the topic raised here, which is - the state of the relationship between Baratheons and Targaryens prior to the tourney of Harrenhal, or just to nag me?

Both criticizing your argument and expressing my opinion on this topic.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

You already did the second one, so how about doing the first one too? You didn't even wrote what are your own thoughts on this topic, you just started to criticize mine.

I already did

On 11/24/2021 at 12:44 AM, Willam Stark said:

In joust, not in an actual fight, nobody was injured so there was nothing to be mad at, except if you're Tyrion but Robert is not Tyrion. Moreover, as @Odej stated, he preferred melee so he wouldn't care that much.

He didn't care about him before Harrenhal, neither did Stannis to elaborate.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

Does that mean that she was better at martial arts and army leadership than were the Great Masters?

Bad comparison. She didn't fight herself, but she did outsmart the Great Masters, at least for a while.

Robert fought Rhaegar in 1 vs 1 and won, his prowess in battle is widely recognized, even by the cocky Jaime, not Rhaegar's.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

Also, I never ever wrote that Rhaegar was a perfect sinless divine being, without any flaws, who never did anything wrong, or never made any mistakes.

You didn't bother to bring any nuances to your depiction of Rhaegar, so when we read this:

"He was more goodlooking than Robert. Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert. Rhaegar was loved and highly respected by his peers. He was an honorable and a responsible person. They are in totally different ligues. Like glass and a diamond."

We can only conclude that he is a perfect prince, you're only saying this because I've pointed out your bad faith, at least my argument has been useful on this point.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

And neither did I wrote that Robert didn't had any good qualities.

Same thing here:

"Robert had so many negative personality traits, that he was a total failure as a human being."

You can't make me believe that you admit he had any good qualities with such statement.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

For example - one of Ramsey Snow's good qualities/strong sides is that he is purposeful and persistant - he knows what he wants, and he does what is necessary to achieve his goals.

Don't change the subject, we are talking about Robert here. You see, you couldn't even do the same thing with Robert, you're sinking.

On 11/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, Megorova said:

And because one of Robert's negative personality traits was spitefulness, it's likely that if he ever had some sort of confrontation, disput, rivalry, or competition against Rhaegar, and lost to him, in Robert's case that alone would have been enough to have a long-lasting grudge against Rhaegar, even before the events that had occurred later at Harrenhal.

Well that didn't happen and your previous counting about team Baratheon vs team Targaryen is just a joke.

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On 11/24/2021 at 5:05 PM, EggBlue said:

I wonder why Lord Steffon sent his eldest son to be fostered in such a poisonous environment... do you happen to have any insights on this?:)  

 

On 11/24/2021 at 5:09 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Steffon could not know.  He was not present. 

 

On 11/24/2021 at 5:15 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

Cressen was a valued advisor. It was his doing. 

Maesters and archmaesters orchestrated to send the boys to where they can be indoctrinated with poisonous thoughts.

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49 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

You didn't bother to bring any nuances to your depiction of Rhaegar, so when we read this:

"He was more goodlooking than Robert. Rhaegar was more intelligent and more sofisticated than Robert. Rhaegar was loved and highly respected by his peers. He was an honorable and a responsible person. They are in totally different ligues. Like glass and a diamond."

We can only conclude that he is a perfect prince, you're only saying this because I've pointed out your bad faith, at least my argument has been useful on this point.

Not all diamonds are flawless. There are various grades of diamonds.

"Diamond Clarity Grade Chart:

  • FL (Flawless). Only about 2% of the world's diamonds fall into this category.
  • IF (Internally Flawless). Tiny surface blemishes that are only visible under 10x magnification.
  • VVS1 & VVS2 (Very Very Slightly Included). Very, very small inclusions that are hard to find under 10x magnification. They are only visible to trained professionals after intense searching.
  • VS1 & VS2 (Very Slightly Included). Flaws are usually not visible to naked eye.
  • SI1 & SI2 (Slightly Included). Flaws may be visible to naked eye.
  • I1 (Included 1st Degree). Flaws are visible even to the casual observer."

So this, in my opinion, how the two of them compared to each other:

  • Rhaegar - a diamond of a VS1 or VS2 grade, with flaws that became visible only later in his life - in and after 281 AC, when he saw that his father was mentally unstable, and thus unfit to rule, but still did nothing to remove him from the Throne (remained a loyal son to his father and a loyal subject to his King. So him being too loyal, was actually one of his negative traits. For example - Jaime Lannister, despite being a Kingsguard, was not too loyal to Aerys. Not loyal enough to kill his own father, and to bring his head to Aerys, when he was ordered to do so by the King), and when he supposedly kidnapped Lyanna Stark - the deed which (in coupling with what his father did in aswer to what was done by Brandon Stark) inadvertedly caused the Rebellion;
  • Robert - reinforced glass. Not a common type of glass, but still - not a diamond, or even a semiprecious stone.
57 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:
On 11/26/2021 at 10:42 PM, Megorova said:

And neither did I wrote that Robert didn't had any good qualities.

Same thing here:

"Robert had so many negative personality traits, that he was a total failure as a human being."

You can't make me believe that you admit he had any good qualities with such statement.

He had a few good qualities, and a multitude of bad ones. So there was several "+" and many "-", thus the total sum of his personality had a "-" sign. Thus - total failure as a human being.

59 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Don't change the subject, we are talking about Robert here. You see, you couldn't even do the same thing with Robert, you're sinking.

That's because you can (if you'll want to, to) write extended praises of Robert's personality and his valiant actions on your own, even without my contribution. I don't have to list here what kind of good traits he had, because that list still will be shorter than the list of his negative traits. Also being generous (which is a good trait) with your friends and other peers, like Robert was, while wasting your parents' money or the crown's money (which turns his generosity into not so positive trait, same as was Rhaegar's overextensive loyalty), isn't equal in weights to such of his negative traits as his unfaithfulness to his wife, or his unresponsible treatment of his children (both the bastards and supposedly legitimate ones), or his tendency to just close his eyes on unjust and unlawfull things, just because he didn't wanted to be bothered with all those responsibilities that he gained after becoming the King, etc. The total sum is negative -> " - ", thus - no need to bother with a listing of his traits.

12 hours ago, Frosted Lucky Charms said:

Rickard, Brandon, and Robert were setting up a family alliance which would threaten the Targaryen rule. Aerys and his family had every right to block the formation of those dangerous marriage alliances. Rickard and the boys were the aggressors. An alliance like that is treason.

In my opinion, Rickard wanted to marry his children to a Tully-girl and a Baratheon-boy, because them and Rickard's children were all bloodrelated thru the Targaryen-line.

Spoiler

Rickard's paternal grandmother - Melantha Blackwood, in my opinion, was a daughter of Mya Rivers - a bastard-daughter of Aegon IV Targaryen. Paternal grandfather of Minisa Whent (Hoster Tully's wife and Catelyn's mother) was the Bastard of Harrenhal - a bastard-son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV. Hoster's paternal great-grandfather - Medgar Tully, possibly was a grandson of Princess Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower.

One of their (Rhaena's and Garmund's) six daughters possibly married with a Tully, so the Tullys from the following generations were cousins of the Targaryens, and that's why Aegon V was intending for one of his sons to marry with Celia Tully - one of Princess Rhaena's great-granddaughters.

Rhaena was born in 116 AC, and in 135 AC, when her half-brother - Viserys II, became a father (in that year was born Aegon IV), Rhaena wasn't even married yet, she was merely 19 years old. So Rhaena's children - those six daughters, that were Aegon IV's first cousins, were born later than Aegon. At the time of Daeron II's birth, in 153 AC, Rhaena was only 37 years old, and there were women in ASOIAF who gave birth when they were aged 43, 44, and even 47. So it's likely that some out of Rhaena's six daughters were closer in age to their first cousin once removed - Daeron II, than to Aegon IV - their first cousin.

In my opinion, those six girls married with a Hightower-cousin, a Dayne, an Arryn, a Dondarrion, a Tully, and a Tyrell. That's why Baelor Breakspear married with Jenna Dondarrion, his brother Rhaegel married with Alys Arryn, Maekar married with Dyanna Dayne, and Aegon V was intending to marry two of his children to Celia Tully and Luthor Tyrell -> because all those people were bloodrelated to the Targaryens, they were their cousins thru Princess Rhaena's six daughters.

Some of Rhaena's daughters could have been close in age to Daeron II, so if Medgar Tully was one of Rhaena's grandsons, then he could have been close in age to Prince Maekar, and Medgar's children could have been close in age to Maekar's children. Medgar was present at the tournament at Ashford, held in The Hedge Knight novel in 209 AC. By 211 AC, after the epidemy, Medgar's son, who at that time was 8 years old, became the Lord of Riverrun. If he was 8 in 211, then he was born either in 203 or in 202, and one of Prince Maekar's sons - Aegon V, was born in 200 AC. So my theory fits perfectly to the timing of known events and known facts about the lineages of the 7K. Medgar's son was close in age to Aegon V, so his children - Celia Tully and her brother (the father of Hoster and Brynden) were close in age to Aegon's children. Aegon V was intending to marry Prince Jaehaerys to Celia - Hoster's paternal aunt. So when that didn't happened, Hoster himself planned to arrange a marriage between one of his daughters - a descendant of Rhaena Targaryen's daughter, that had married with a Tully-boy, and Brandon Stark - a descendant of Aegon IV's daughter - Mya Rivers.

Rhaena and Viserys II were half-siblings, so Rhaena's daughters and Aegon IV were first cousins, thus Daeron II and Princess Daenerys and Mya Rivers and the Bastard of Harrenhal and Aegon's other children were second cousins to Medgar Tully (one of Rhaena's grandsons). The Bastard of Harrenhal, in my opinion, was the founder of House Whent and Minisa Whent's grandfather. So Hoster's wife - Minisa Whent was his cousin, specifically (if the Bastard and Medgar were second cousins, then their children were third cousins (the father of Minisa and the father of Celia and her brother (Hoster's father)), and their grandchildren - Minisa and Hoster's father were fourth cousins) she was Hoster's fourth cousin once removed.

Unless GRRM used in their family trees different number of generations - for example, the Bastard was born in 178-180 AC, and thus he was close in age to Prince Maekar, who was born in 174-178 AC. The Bastard was close in age to Maekar, despite being his uncle (both him and Daeron II were Aegon IV children, or maybe Daeron actually was the Dragonknight's son, but that's another story). Because of that gap in age, shift in generations, could be that Minisa and Hoster were not fourth cousins once removed, but second cousins twice removed, or something similar.

Either way - my point is that they were bloodrelated, and thru the Targaryen-line they were some sort of cousins. That's why they married - to keep together the blood of the dragons.

For the same reason as Hoster married with Minisa Whent, he also wanted to marry one of his daughters to Brandon Stark - because the guy was also a partial dragonseed and his some sort of cousin thru the Targaryen-line. And Rickard Stark was intending to marry Lyanna to Robert Baratheon, because they were also some sort of cousins (fourth cousins, or something like that). And that's why Rickard thought that those marriages were a good idea.

Thus Rickard and Hoster with those marriages between their children weren't plotting some sort of coup or a treason, they were just keeping together the blood of the dragons - same thing as the Targaryens did. They were just marrying with their relatives, and there was nothing more to it, no hidden meaning or malicious intents.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/27/2021 at 9:03 PM, Paul Serone said:

Rickard, Brandon, and Robert were setting up a family alliance which would threaten the Targaryen rule. Aerys and his family had every right to block the formation of those dangerous marriage alliances. Rickard and the boys were the aggressors. An alliance like that is treason.

I am sure the relationship was cold. Robert would not pose himself a threat to cousin Rhaegar if he had liked the  prince. His parents died for Rhaegar and he resented it. Mom and dad were ordered to find a bride for a prince who couldn’t do it on his own. Prince marries a Dornish woman and has kids. Robert counters by marrying a northern girl. It also seems Brandon was being set up to serve as Robert’s Hand. 

There is no such solid evidence that there was a challenge to the Targaryen rule either by the Starks or the Baratheons . As insane as Aerys seem to be ,it never left beyond the royal keep .

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  • 5 months later...

Robert and Stannis had claims to the Iron Throne because of their grandmother, Rhaelle Targaryen Aegon IV Targaryen's youngest daughter. And the maesters would use this bloodtie to cement Robert's claim to the throne, after the deaths of Elia's children by Rhaegar and Viserys and Daenerys escaping to the Free Cities in exile.

Because of Robert's continued victories, he was seen as the greatest threat to House Targaryen since Daemon Blackfyre because Houses Baratheon and Blackfyre emerged from House Targaryen (Orys being Aegon's half-brother and Daemon being Aegon's favored son) and both were master warriors. Robert excelled in strategy and Daemon was trained since youth by the master-at-arms of the Red Keep and resembled Aegon the Conqueror.

Both capitulated support from unrest and dissatisfaction from the ruling monarch's system: Aerys' madness and cruelty where cities and towns were set ablaze and people were burned alive with wildfire, with Ned's brother and father's deaths sparking the revolt and Daeron's support of the Dornish who had raided the Stormlands and the Reach for centuries and resisted Targaryen rule for generation, opposing their vassals, and their peaceful joining of the Seven Kingdoms allowed them more privileges and concessions and autonomy.

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