What if Ser Rodrik had killed Ramsay ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

What do you think would have happened if Ser Rodrik Casell had realized that the man passing for Ramsay Snow was an impostor and that "Reek" was the true Ramsay and had executed him for his crimes against lady Hornwood and her people ?

What would have been the short and long-term consequences for Ser Rodrik, house Bolton, house Stark, Theon Greyjoy, the North and the whole of Westeros ?

How strongly would the story have been altered ?

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

35 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What do you think would have happened if Ser Rodrik Casell had realized that the man passing for Ramsay Snow was an impostor and that "Reek" was the true Ramsay and had executed him for his crimes against lady Hornwood and her people ?

What would have been the short and long-term consequences for Ser Rodrik, house Bolton, house Stark, Theon Greyjoy, the North and the whole of Westeros ?

How strongly would the story have been altered ?

The Bolton usurpation never happens Rodrik liberates all of the North, maybe even raises the mountain clans to help him, retakes Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte. This way, Robb never has to come North at the Twins so the Freys have to get more creative about killing Robb. 

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

The Bolton usurpation never happens Rodrik liberates all of the North, maybe even raises the mountain clans to help him, retakes Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte. This way, Robb never has to come North at the Twins so the Freys have to get more creative about killing Robb. 

The Freys wouldn’t want to kill Robb if Winterfell isn’t taken and Bran and Rickon don’t disappear.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

18 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The Freys wouldn’t want to kill Robb if Winterfell isn’t taken and Bran and Rickon don’t disappear.

He breaks his oath anyway. Theon still kills the miller's boys though.

[Canon Claude]

Just now, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

He breaks his oath anyway. Theon still kills the miller's boys though.

He wouldn’t necessarily have broken his oath in this version of events.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

He wouldn’t necessarily have broken his oath in this version of events.

Why though? Robb breaks his oath because of Rickon and Bran's deaths which happens in this version.

[Canon Claude]

1 minute ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Why though? Robb breaks his oath because of Rickon and Bran's deaths which happens in this version.

That depends on when Ramsay is killed. If Rodrik kills him before Theon takes Winterfell, then we have no idea what Theon ends up doing. As reek, Ramsay was instrumental in guiding Theon during his occupation of Winterfell. Who knows whether Theon would have gone through with killing the miller boys without Ramsay? I don’t believe it’s a given that he would have done everything the same as he did.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Canon Claude said:

That depends on when Ramsay is killed. If Rodrik kills him before Theon takes Winterfell, then we have no idea what Theon ends up doing. As reek, Ramsay was instrumental in guiding Theon during his occupation of Winterfell. Who knows whether Theon would have gone through with killing the miller boys without Ramsay? I don’t believe it’s a given that he would have done everything the same as he did.

The only time that Rodrik would've been able to kill Ramsay would have been before Theon took Winterfell.

I think the whole "kill the miller's boys, burn their bodies beyond recognition and say that they are the Stark boys" was Reek's idea. Bran has a green-dream of Reek doing it.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The only time that Rodrik would've been able to kill Ramsay would have been before Theon took Winterfell.

I think the whole "kill the miller's boys, burn their bodies beyond recognition and say that they are the Stark boys" was Reek's idea. Bran has a green-dream of Reek doing it.

I think Theon was desperate enough to do it without Reek.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

I think Theon was desperate enough to do it without Reek.

Sure he was desperate enough, but he wasn't creative enough, evil enough or it plain just hadn't occurred to him. It was very clearly Ramsay's idea to murder the Miller's kids and stand them in. He was the guy who told Theon to send the rest of the party home because he was certain they'd find the two boys at the mill and he was the one who brought the direwolf pin and nice clothes for the corpses.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I think if Ramsay was actually killed when Reek was killed in his place things would have been pretty uneventful in the North while Robb was campaigning. I don't think that he could have killed him when he showed up at the 'siege' of Winterfell. He didn't recognize his face because he was wearing a full mask and when he rode forth to greet him Ramsay cut his arm off and then killed him and the battle began.

"When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face" - Ramsay to Theon 

 

Was Roose behind the attack or did Ramsay just go rogue and Roose made the best of it?  Ramsay orders his men to find the 2 Frey wards when he orders Winterfell burned to the ground.  He wouldn't have a) known of them or b) cared a whit for their lives if he hadn't been in contact with Roose.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

11 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Was Roose behind the attack or did Ramsay just go rogue and Roose made the best of it?  Ramsay orders his men to find the 2 Frey wards when he orders Winterfell burned to the ground.  He wouldn't have a) known of them or b) cared a whit for their lives if he hadn't been in contact with Roose.

Roose was absolutely behind it, beyond question. He was using the chaos of the war to undermine House Stark almost from the very beginning. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Roose was absolutely behind it, beyond question. He was using the chaos of the war to undermine House Stark almost from the very beginning. 

That's my take as well. I would take it a step further and suggest that Roose would have made a move during either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy uprising had Ned appeared weak at either of those events. Basically I think that Roose was always waiting for this opportunity.  It's definitely a 'win or die' move though and I don't think Roose would take that kind of risk without some measure of certainty. Theon provided the opportunity and Tywin Lannister provided the certainty

[WhatAnArtist!]

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Roose was absolutely behind it, beyond question. He was using the chaos of the war to undermine House Stark almost from the very beginning. 

How early do you think this was? As soon as war broke out? His loss at the Green Fork? 

[frenin]

19 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

How strongly would the story have been altered ?

Most of the actions towards Robb, the North and the Starks are based on the fact that he has no children and no male heirs.

So, I'd say the story changes quite.

 

 

17 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The Freys wouldn’t want to kill Robb if Winterfell isn’t taken and Bran and Rickon don’t disappear.

The reason why Robb's bannermen start distrusting him was because he had lost Winterfell and his heirs were dead. So long as Winterfell holds, there's no pressing urge to leave the South, besides the obvious Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Roose was absolutely behind it, beyond question. He was using the chaos of the war to undermine House Stark almost from the very beginning. 

That's a nice theory but it's impossible to prove.

 

 

12 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

. I would take it a step further and suggest that Roose would have made a move during either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy uprising had Ned appeared weak at either of those events. Basically I think that Roose was always waiting for this opportunity.

He would have never moved against Ned during Balon's rebellion. It was the Iron Islands against the whole Realm.

And the rebels looked pretty weak from the get go during the Robellion, yet Roose remained loyal.

It can't be that Robb simply looked so much like the loser side that he considered keep serving him tantamount of suicide?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

How early do you think this was? As soon as war broke out? His loss at the Green Fork? 

He was at least using his strategy of sacrifying other northmen while preserving his forces from the beginning as seen at the Green Fork, he has been plotting against the Starks since ACOK with him already showing signs of scheming something and exchanging letters with Tywin while he was occupying Harrenhal. 

Not counting that Ramsay certainely couldn't have led his remaining father's lord forces and sack Winterfell, and wouldn't have spared the Frey wards, without his father's knowledge and orders.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

22 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What do you think would have happened if Ser Rodrik Casell had realized that the man passing for Ramsay Snow was an impostor and that "Reek" was the true Ramsay and had executed him for his crimes against lady Hornwood and her people ?

What would have been the short and long-term consequences for Ser Rodrik, house Bolton, house Stark, Theon Greyjoy, the North and the whole of Westeros ?

How strongly would the story have been altered ?

Short and long terms are not the same.  Tough times for House Bolton until Walda can squeeze out an heir.  Long term will be better.  Any heir will be better for them.  The late Ramsay will not be missed. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

22 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

How early do you think this was? As soon as war broke out? His loss at the Green Fork? 

Tough to say, but the Battle of Green Fork was clearly a case of Roose deliberately throwing away every advantage that the Northern army had, getting almost half of them killed in a massacre. This includes his big rival, Halys Hornwood, with whom Roose was arguing over a piece of overlapping territory. And what a coincidence that in the middle of such a devastating defeat, not a single Bolton soldier seems to have been killed? In fact, House Bolton's troops more or less survive the entire southern campaign intact, even as Roose bled the Northern forces by sending them off to die at Duskendale or stranding them on the wrong side of the Ruby Ford. Green Fork was too similar of a situation for me to think it a coincidence. 

[BlackLightning]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:23 AM, frenin said:

It can't be that Robb simply looked so much like the loser side that he considered keep serving him tantamount of suicide?

Well, to be sure, Roose never liked Ned. Ned never trusted him and for very good reason. Ned was a good man and a beloved overlord but let's not get it twisted: he was far from being a pushover. He was stern and swift. Look at what happened to Jorah Mormont. Roose Bolton had been doing dirt for years and he was always afraid of being caught and cut down by Rickard, Brandon and Ned. That's what his problems with the Starks were about: fear of being caught and punished for his wicked deeds and hatred and anger for being so afraid. Seeing what happened to Jorah Mormont and his House put him on edge.

However, he didn't have the strength to defy or rebel against Rickard or Brandon (especially not with Aerys alive) and he certainly was not powerful enough to go against Ned. Given Ned's relationship with Robert Baratheon, Robert's reputation as a warrior, Ned's own reputation and the Greyjoy Rebellion taught him what would happen should he rebel against the Iron Throne. And the Greyjoys got off real easy. What would've happened if he attacked the king's best friend (whom he loved more than his own brothers, wife and children) and the former home of the king's long-lost love? He would've ended up like Rhaegar.

It's because Robb was a child (or at least, he was to Roose) and Roose hates child rulers. According to him, child rulers are the bane of any and every noble house.

Remember it's the main reason why he tolerates Ramsay and is somewhat okay with him killing any newborn son he has with Walda Frey. He doesn't think he will live long enough to raise the boy to adulthood, so to him it's better for the child to be killed than to be allowed to live and become the Lord of House Bolton before he comes of age.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:50 PM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

I think Theon was desperate enough to do it without Reek.

He was definitely desperate enough but if Ramsay doesn't offer to serve Theon, Osha would probably be in jail still. She's the one who helped Bran and Rickon escape.