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MCU: a very special Hawkeye Christmas…


Ser Scot A Ellison
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Kingpin's shirt is straight up from the cover of I have no idea what. Image in this link.

https://www.cnet.com/news/hawkeye-finale-recap-ending-and-post-credits-scene-explained/

Loved Yelena and her banter with Kate. Had no idea I could enjoy Hawkeye as a character.  Overall not bad but also the weakest of the shows. 

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38 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

Kingpin's shirt is straight up from the cover of I have no idea what. Image in this link.

https://www.cnet.com/news/hawkeye-finale-recap-ending-and-post-credits-scene-explained/

Loved Yelena and her banter with Kate. Had no idea I could enjoy Hawkeye as a character.  Overall not bad but also the weakest of the shows. 

Yeah. I just read that it's from a Spider-Man story...still felt odd, for the season, but I'm not that familiar with the comic tale...

And I've always been a little ambivalent towards the MCU Hawkeye, though his comic version I've always had a soft spot for...though the Fraction/Aja run really cemented him as a great character for me.

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It's funny that other than taking the tracksuit mafia from fractions run and taking the graphic design, the show had basically nothing to do with fractions run. The pizza dog was the biggest thing? 

God damn we all love Kate and Yelena. More of that in particular please. 

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Very much enjoyed the last ep of Hawkeye.  And, sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I was perfectly fine with Jack just being an oblivious cocky rich dude that wasn't worried about being framed.  That might be the most believable character of the entire show.  As for D'Onofrio, I thought he looked pretty damn good for a guy who played Private Pyle 35 years ago.  The voice was way too cartoonish though, yeah.

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7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think in a subtle way they did

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Kate defeats him by throwing his father's cufflink at the arrows. As we know from the series, those cufflinks were a big to deal and part of him persona. At the very least it was definitely a nod to the fans of the Daredevil show.

 

Not a comparison I thought I’d be making but, it weirdly reminds me of Star Trek: Discovery - a niche Easter egg if you watch closely that proves they’re fans, meanwhile, the big stuff plastered all over the screen is all wrong. I also figured him getting shot with the arrow and brushing it off was referencing his special suit lining that Potter made for him.

I’m aware the look is from a Spider-Man cover, but why? How many fans of that cover were excited to see it vs how many DD fans were confused? Again, a weird time for a niche Easter egg. Maybe they should’ve just introduced Kingpin earlier, this episode had a lot to do already. I’m hoping they course correct a little when they make the Echo series.

Regarding whether Disney+ can be as violent as Netflix; is there any inherent reason why not? I know we all expect them to be more family oriented, but if they’re trying to compete with the other big streaming services, I had a small hope they’d diversify a bit - Young Avengers for the kids, more Netflix style stuff for older people. They have a bunch of shows on ‘STAR’, whatever that is, like 24 for example, all in the same app.

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43 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Regarding whether Disney+ can be as violent as Netflix; is there any inherent reason why not?

They don't want to?

Disney+ do have more mature stuff on the app, generally sectioned off from the rest - in the UK at least it's under the Star brand. But within the Marvel brand, not so much and what there is, is historic. Moving forward, maybe something like Moon Knight might be more mature, but Hawkeye was never going to be.

And that's fine with me. One of the things about a character like Kingpin is is flexibility: always has been. In the comics, just as Hawkeye can be Ronin or the guy with the boxing glove arrow, Kingpin can be the brutal arch-nemesis of Born Again or he can be the guy with the cane full of sleeping gas who fights Spidey. I appreciate many people prefer the former, and that's fine, there's three series of that whenever you want to watch it*. If this is a different take, I'm down for it.

 

 

*Actually that's not quite true. Netflix-Kingpin is a somewhat different beast than Born Again-Kingpin. He's more childlike in some ways, less controlled, his motivations are different. But he's a take on that version, for sure.

Edited by mormont
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Regarding Jack, they almost hit what they were aiming at, the conversation with Armand III cemented the fact that’s he’s just an overgrown child who happens to be good with a sword, but I think some of the work they did to make him a red herring undermines that twist, if you want to call it that. A lot of the time in previous episodes he seemed quite mature and making a sincere effort to get along with Kate and make his new family work, not somebody you’d associate with being a dupe.

The more I think about the watch, the less sense it makes. How does it expose Laura? Why would Kingpin care about exposing Laura? Not to mention the fact that having a watch with the symbol of your agency and your code number on it is the dumbest spy shit since Bond constantly introducing himself by his full name.

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10 hours ago, mormont said:

They don't want to?

Disney+ do have more mature stuff on the app, generally sectioned off from the rest - in the UK at least it's under the Star brand. But within the Marvel brand, not so much and what there is, is historic. Moving forward, maybe something like Moon Knight might be more mature, but Hawkeye was never going to be.

And that's fine with me. One of the things about a character like Kingpin is is flexibility: always has been. In the comics, just as Hawkeye can be Ronin or the guy with the boxing glove arrow, Kingpin can be the brutal arch-nemesis of Born Again or he can be the guy with the cane full of sleeping gas who fights Spidey. I appreciate many people prefer the former, and that's fine, there's three series of that whenever you want to watch it*. If this is a different take, I'm down for it.

 

 

*Actually that's not quite true. Netflix-Kingpin is a somewhat different beast than Born Again-Kingpin. He's more childlike in some ways, less controlled, his motivations are different. But he's a take on that version, for sure.

Pretty sure the Boxing Glove Arrow is an Oliver Queen thing...but I digress... 

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I never thought they'd do an elevator fight scene I liked more than the one in Winter Soldier, but Kate pushing the buttons to all the floors killed me. :laugh:

Jack is also great, need to see him pop up somewhere else. Now that I get that he's not a villain and just seemingly a guy who gives zero fucks and would wear a sword to a party I like him more. 

When Clint shot the purple gas arrow at Kazi I thought he was pruning him from reality for a second. I loved the gag with the shrunken van, but shouldn't those guys have liquified? I thought like you needed the suit to shrink a person and have them survive. 

I'm still unclear how the Val scene from Black Widow jives with Elanor hiring her. Also minor thing but at one point Kate mentioned the new statue of liberty. But uuh didn't Spider-Man take place like a year before this? I guess they could have fixed it. But I dunno, build Cap his own statue! Don't repurpose a historical one. 

"Is this what heroes do? Have their mother's arrested on Christmas?" Damn lady. I still don't really get why she personally murdered Armond? 

I dunno what to make of Fisk, he seems like he's been hitting the super-soldier serum. Or got bit by a radioactive fat guy. 

I'm not shocked that they didn't clarify if it was the same guy as in Dardevil, but it is annoying. I figured Ms. Marvel would have to address if the Inhumans stuff from Agents of Shield happened, but I read the other day that she's apparently not even an Inhuman in the MCU. 

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7 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also minor thing but at one point Kate mentioned the new statue of liberty. But uuh didn't Spider-Man take place like a year before this? I guess they could have fixed it. But I dunno, build Cap his own statue! Don't repurpose a historical one. 

Nope, both 2024. They almost certainly overlap, but I’m not sure exactly when.

7 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm not shocked that they didn't clarify if it was the same guy as in Dardevil, but it is annoying.

Reading about a few other little hints, his cuff links are the same as the ones from the Netflix show, and the hotel he met Eleanor is apparently where his base of operations was. It’s crazy how much heavy lifting that Hawaiian shirt is doing to put everyone off the scent.

More annoying is that we’re very unlikely to get any other indication until Echo, so we’ll be debating this for a while yet.

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Re: the watch. I can headcanon this a bit. The watch on its own presumably proves nothing and is just a bit of memorabilia. But, the fact that it shows up in an auction of gear from the Avengers base could potentially corroborate other information Kingpin already holds to prove that Laura Barton, wife of Hawkeye the Avenger = Agent 19 from SHIELD, and give him some hold over her and potentially Clint. So Kingpin wanted it and tasked the Tracksuit Mafia to get it. (And there are reasons to have such a watch provided one isn't actively undercover.)

As for Eleanor hiring Yelena, Val didn't hire her to kill Clint. She merely planted the seed. Eleanor's contract spurs Yelena into actually acting on that belief. Again, headcanon but I think it works.

Finally, I have no idea why it even matters to folks whether it is ever confirmed that this Kingpin is Netflix Kingpin? Is it important?

 

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7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Nope, both 2024. They almost certainly overlap, but I’m not sure exactly when.

Ah, alright I thought they came back in '23, went on their summer trip and then the end of FFH / start of NWH was fall of '23. 

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Reading about a few other little hints, his cuff links are the same as the ones from the Netflix show, and the hotel he met Eleanor is apparently where his base of operations was. It’s crazy how much heavy lifting that Hawaiian shirt is doing to put everyone off the scent.

More annoying is that we’re very unlikely to get any other indication until Echo, so we’ll be debating this for a while yet.

It'd not the Hawaiin shirt for me it's his car door ripping off strength, he wasn't like that in Dardevil was he? It has been a bit I should probably re-watch that. 

Also just...I dunno if I picture Netflix Fisk rebuilding his empire in the wake of the Snap, I don't picture him turning to those bros. 

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Finally, I have no idea why it even matters to folks whether it is ever confirmed that this Kingpin is Netflix Kingpin? Is it important?

I mean if you want to see the AoS characters or other Netflix characters finally be recognized in the proper MCU then yeah It matters. I mean to the extent that any of this really matters. It also informs where they might go with Daredevil. Like is Electra alive? does he know what the HAND is? is Bullseye out there somewhere? I mean it didn't detract from my enjoyment of Hakweye, but I think it's natural to wonder. 

And at this point I wish they'd just tell us! Doesn't have to be in a show, Feige or whoever could just say "we're using the old shows as a template but changing things where we think it will improve the stories we're trying to tell."

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5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It's not the Hawaiin shirt for me it's his car door ripping off strength, he wasn't like that in Dardevil was he? It has been a bit I should probably re-watch that.

He was still very, very strong. Daredevil goes through 99% of his enemies like butter and just the sheer brute strength of Fisk gives him the edge. It’s also possible they link this to the power broker stuff from FatWS and he’s been juicing.

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also just...I dunno if I picture Netflix Fisk rebuilding his empire in the wake of the Snap, I don't picture him turning to those bros. 

Yea, I think this is a case of jamming Kingpin into a story so as to provide a back door pilot for Echo, one where he doesn’t really fit all that well. I guess if you’re gonna do the ‘bros’ as a nod to the Fraction/Aja comic, then reveal a big boss, he kinda has to be in charge of them.

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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It also informs where they might go with Daredevil. Like is Electra alive? does he know what the HAND is? is Bullseye out there somewhere? I mean it didn't detract from my enjoyment of Hakweye, but I think it's natural to wonder. 

Yeah, but here's the thing: they have the rights to the characters, but there's no way that means they're going to pick up any of the plotlines. Those, they almost certainly do not have the rights to.

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1 minute ago, mormont said:

Yeah, but here's the thing: they have the rights to the characters, but there's no way that means they're going to pick up any of the plotlines. Those, they almost certainly do not have the rights to.

Huh, I'd never considered there might be a legal reason not to come out and say "this is that same guy" 

Hey was Vanessa a comics character or someone they invented for the show? and if she's a show creation do you know if they can still use her? 

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19 minutes ago, mormont said:

As for Eleanor hiring Yelena, Val didn't hire her to kill Clint. She merely planted the seed. Eleanor's contract spurs Yelena into actually acting on that belief. Again, headcanon but I think it works.

I think it's simpler just to say Eleanor hired Val and then Val gave the contract to Yelena.

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Can you have the rights for a potential sequel to your plot line though? Where do you draw the line there, what counts as part of a plot line? Is this Kingpin allowed to have killed his Dad?

Being Marvel, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d hashed out all this anyway. Even if this was all separate back then, surely they wouldn’t have signed up to never being allowed to do anything with them.

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Just now, sifth said:

So is that Evil Strange, from What If in the trailer for the new Doctor Strange film?

I've seen people say it's the Supreme Strange from What If? but I don't know if that makes sense. That guy was regretful and not especially evil. 

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13 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Huh, I'd never considered there might be a legal reason not to come out and say "this is that same guy" 

Hey was Vanessa a comics character or someone they invented for the show? and if she's a show creation do you know if they can still use her? 

I'm not saying there's a clear legal reason, but at the very least it is legally less complicated just to drop those plotlines as far as practicable. It would protect against writers, producers etc. trying to get a cut of the Marvel action.

It all fits with what I've said before, which is: unless Marvel have a solid motivation to certify something produced by another studio as canon, they won't. They won't because why would they? What's in it for them? Even if the downside is minor, remote or even theoretical, there needs to be an upside to offset it, and generally there isn't.

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think it's simpler just to say Eleanor hired Val and then Val gave the contract to Yelena.

I'm not sure this will prove true when we know more about Val's motives.

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